Katyn - The Truth

[lord of flies]

Who here is defending the return to British administrated India? Who here is defending the return to Soviet policies and practices?

You're defending capitalism, yes. Same monster, different head.

I thought we had already established that pulling some chart from your sleeve just isn't going to cut it. I can do that too. Why don't you go ahead and post your sources? How many of those asked had actually experienced the height of Soviet or Soviet-fostered oppression?

It's obvious that you don't know anything about what you're talking about, or you wouldn't have found any of the graphs I have posted surprising. It's funny that you like to claim that I'm the one making baseless claims when you never back up anything and ignore every fact I post with reckless abandon. Stop posting.

[Walsingham]

ROFLMAO. That is without a shadow of a doubt the single funniest argument I have EVER heard. "If you don't recognise my source then you are insufficiently expert". You literally couldn't make it up.

 

So, leaving aside our obvious inferiority, may I ask who the hell conducted the counter-revolutions throughout the Communist bloc, and why such enormous police presences are required in the few remaining communist countries?

[213374U]

Who here is defending the return to British administrated India? Who here is defending the return to Soviet policies and practices?

You're defending capitalism, yes. Same monster, different head.

Lol, no. You will have to elaborate on how present global capitalism equates to late 19th century colonial exploitation.

 

 

It's obvious that you don't know anything about what you're talking about, or you wouldn't have found any of the graphs I have posted surprising. It's funny that you like to claim that I'm the one making baseless claims when you never back up anything and ignore every fact I post with reckless abandon. Stop posting.

"Facts"? I'd say that the stupefyingly mad tripe you insist in posting is more like a crack-overdose induced interpretation thereof. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, I guess. Oh, wait...

 

Anyway, did you even read the doc before linking to it? I guess not, otherwise you'd have noticed that the title goes "end of communism cheered, but now with more reservations" -- which more than sufficiently supports what Wals said. The reservations bit isn't surprising considering that the 2009 part of the survey was conducted at about the same time the global financial crisis hit its peak; similar effects can be observed in vote intention surveys for the period. Further, the survey clearly shows that people believe they are better off today than they were when asked back in 1991, even considering generational gaps. Also worthy of note is the correlation between satisfaction, perceived corruption and economic performance in a given country. Of course, if your country is doing like **** and your leaders are a bunch of crooks, capitalism must be to blame, right? Yeah, because under communism, corruption didn't exist...

 

Unlike you, I won't ask you to stop posting -- you make a much better case against the extreme left than I could ever hope to. Why do you hate socialism?

[lord of flies]

ROFLMAO. That is without a shadow of a doubt the single funniest argument I have EVER heard. "If you don't recognise my source then you are insufficiently expert". You literally couldn't make it up.

You don't need to "recognize my source" in order to understand that it is correct. If someone posted a statistic about the Soviet death toll in the Second World War, I wouldn't get all freaked out about it unless it conflicted with what I already know. Of course, nothing I post could conflict with what Too Elite For You knows, since he knows nothing.

So, leaving aside our obvious inferiority, may I ask who the hell conducted the counter-revolutions throughout the Communist bloc,

The ruling elites, maybe?

and why such enormous police presences are required in the few remaining communist countries?

I dunno, why?

Lol, no. You will have to elaborate on how present global capitalism equates to late 19th century colonial exploitation.

If you don't understand politics or economics, I don't see why I have to educate you. The application of force to ensure the continuation of free-market capitalism is a consistent fact of capitalism. Capitalism is a world system and cannot be understood as a national system.

Anyway, did you even read the doc before linking to it? I guess not, otherwise you'd have noticed that the title goes "end of communism cheered, but now with more reservations"

People think a thing will be better than it is because everybody lies to them. News at eleven.

The reservations bit isn't surprising considering that the 2009 part of the survey was conducted at about the same time the global financial crisis hit its peak; similar effects can be observed in vote intention surveys for the period.

Please, prove that latter claim.

Further, the survey clearly shows that people believe they are better off today than they were when asked back in 1991, even considering generational gaps.

Nigeria is the Happiest Place In The World!

[213374U]

If you don't understand politics or economics, I don't see why I have to educate you. The application of force to ensure the continuation of free-market capitalism is a consistent fact of capitalism. Capitalism is a world system and cannot be understood as a national system.

Blah blah blah -- prove it.

 

People think a thing will be better than it is because everybody lies to them. News at eleven.

Yes, people that have experienced both systems have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and are at the mercy of the worldwide bourgeois zionist conspiracy propaganda. Fortunately, they have the great lof to open their eyes! He hasn't actually experienced communism outside of "Obama's America", but that doesn't matter, he's possessed of the certainty of the ineffable!

 

 

Please, prove that latter claim.

When you prove yours. You can start by the bit about "every party other than the CPSU is a reactionary bourgeois power clique". No, self-referencing isn't considered a valid proof method.

 

 

Nigeria is the Happiest Place In The World!

Thanks for a completely irrelevant piece of trivia. Other than the negative implications that this could have against the "proof" you brought up yourself, I don't know what this has to do with anything.

[lord of flies]

Blah blah blah -- prove it.

lol let me just prove extremely fundamental facts about the way the world works on an internet discussion board so that some evasive little **** who is losing an argument.

 

If capitalism is not a world system, why is there such an extensive history of economic imperialism before and after decolonization? Why did the United States overthrow/try to overthrow the governments of Guatemala, Iran, Cambodia, Venezuela, etc? These did not serve a strategic interest (none of these countries were/are actual threats), nor did it counter Soviet influence (none of these countries were Soviet influenced).

Yes, people that have experienced both systems have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and are at the mercy of the worldwide bourgeois zionist conspiracy propaganda. Fortunately, they have the great lof to open their eyes! He hasn't actually experienced communism outside of "Obama's America", but that doesn't matter, he's possessed of the certainty of the ineffable!

Except that now that people have experienced both systems, their positive opinions of free market capitalism are worse? Hmm... almost as though I'm right and you're wrong.

When you prove yours. You can start by the bit about "every party other than the CPSU is a reactionary bourgeois power clique". No, self-referencing isn't considered a valid proof method.

lol nice evasion tactic, real smooth, almost invisible to the blind.

Thanks for a completely irrelevant piece of trivia. Other than the negative implications that this could have against the "proof" you brought up yourself, I don't know what this has to do with anything.

"Are you satisfied," "are you happy" and similar questions have virtually nothing to do with what the situation in the country actually is. You are the one who brought up that question. This is a very dishonest statement.

[I want teh kotor 3]

LoF, I don't understand why you can't get this little bit of trivia through your head. Soviet police-- IE the KGB, which you seem to have forgotten-- existed to punish people who disagreed with the government; American police exist to punish people who murder, steal, etc... That's not the same...

[lord of flies]

LoF, I don't understand why you can't get this little bit of trivia through your head. Soviet police-- IE the KGB, which you seem to have forgotten-- existed to punish people who disagreed with the government; American police exist to punish people who murder, steal, etc... That's not the same...

lol yeah it's just a coincidence that our prison system, in addition to being absolutely horrific for the people within it (lol rape camp), is rapidly approaching high Stalin and has a wildly disproportionate number of blacks. Edited April 30, 2010 by lord of flies

[Walsingham]

Simply pointing at the united states proves nothing about communism. They could chase citizens through the streets on dinosaur back. It wouldn't change the history of the KGB, the Stasi, or whatever the Chinese secret police were called.

[lord of flies]

Simply pointing at the united states proves nothing about communism. They could chase citizens through the streets on dinosaur back. It wouldn't change the history of the KGB, the Stasi, or whatever the Chinese secret police were called.

All states are supported by force, implicit or explicit. That is what a state is, that is how a state works, on a fundamental level. I wish it wasn't so, but wishing doesn't make it so.

[I want teh kotor 3]

LoF, I don't understand why you can't get this little bit of trivia through your head. Soviet police-- IE the KGB, which you seem to have forgotten-- existed to punish people who disagreed with the government; American police exist to punish people who murder, steal, etc... That's not the same...

lol yeah it's just a coincidence that our prison system, in addition to being absolutely horrific for the people within it (lol rape camp), is rapidly approaching high Stalin and has a wildly disproportionate number of blacks.

 

LoF... It's a ****ing prison? What do you expect them to get? a 5-star hotel? The point isn't that American prisons are ****- murderers and rapists don't deserve better. The point is that the Soviet government regularly committed mass murders, yet you ignore them.

[Walsingham]

Simply pointing at the united states proves nothing about communism. They could chase citizens through the streets on dinosaur back. It wouldn't change the history of the KGB, the Stasi, or whatever the Chinese secret police were called.

All states are supported by force, implicit or explicit. That is what a state is, that is how a state works, on a fundamental level. I wish it wasn't so, but wishing doesn't make it so.

 

I have never maintained otherwise. What I DO maintain is that the degree of force is directly proportional to the divergence of the state's order from human norms. I maintain that communism is extremely unnatural and its inception and sustenance is only possible through extreme violence. I have pointed out the extreme violence which went into the creation of communist Russia and communist China. I have also pointed out that the reform of the system of state violence correlates perfectly with the collapse of European communism and its empire of socialist 'brothers'. The two principle remaining communist states - Cuba and North korea - both practice extreme political repression.

 

I am still laughing about the notion that academics need not reference material because it's provenance should be obvious.

 

EDIT: In my mirth, I forgot about Vietnam.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Walsingham

[lord of flies]

LoF... It's a ****ing prison? What do you expect them to get? a 5-star hotel? The point isn't that American prisons are ****- murderers and rapists don't deserve better.

Actually, they do. If I was to personally have been raped and murdered, I would not wish American prison on my killer. I mean, obviously he would need to go to prison, and in this country that means that he would have to go to an American prison, so in that way he would have to go to American prison. But given the choice between sending him to a prison in (for example) Norway or one in the United States, I would unhesitatingly let even the worst criminal in the world have the one in Norway.

 

The point of prison is (supposed to be) to deprive you of your freedom and thus protect others from your anti-social behavior, not to satisfy the crazed bloodlust of children. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Also, you assume that all American prisoners are murderers and rapists and rightfully convicted and put in our rape camps, which is pretty ****ing hilarious.

[I want teh kotor 3]

LoF... It's a ****ing prison? What do you expect them to get? a 5-star hotel? The point isn't that American prisons are ****- murderers and rapists don't deserve better.

Actually, they do. If I was to personally have been raped and murdered, I would not wish American prison on my killer. I mean, obviously he would need to go to prison, and in this country that means that he would have to go to an American prison, so in that way he would have to go to American prison. But given the choice between sending him to a prison in (for example) Norway or one in the United States, I would unhesitatingly let even the worst criminal in the world have the one in Norway.

 

The point of prison is (supposed to be) to deprive you of your freedom and thus protect others from your anti-social behavior, not to satisfy the crazed bloodlust of children. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Also, you assume that all American prisoners are murderers and rapists and rightfully convicted and put in our rape camps, which is pretty ****ing hilarious.

 

And you continue to completely ignore the point...

[lord of flies]

The two principle remaining communist states - Cuba and North korea - both practice extreme political repression.

The only place in Cuba where torture takes place is Guantanamo Bay.

[lord of flies]

And you continue to completely ignore the point...

That you don't understand the US prison system or basic human morality at all? That you think that putting a thin veneer of civility on the suppression of ones own citizens en masse by claiming that they're criminals is at all relevant to questions of morals?

[I want teh kotor 3]

No, that Commiedom is wrong because it inherently involves repression and murder, and that because it doesn't, capitalism is infinitely superior.

[lord of flies]

No, that Commiedom is wrong because it inherently involves repression and murder, and that because it doesn't, capitalism is infinitely superior.

List of correct things in this post:

"Commiedom is ... infinitely superior."

[I want teh kotor 3]

How 'bout this: Find me an example of a single successful Commie deathcamp state that wasn't founded or maintained through murder.

[lord of flies]

How 'bout this: Find me an example of a single successful Commie deathcamp state that wasn't founded or maintained through murder.

Yugoslavia.

[213374U]

lol let me just prove extremely fundamental facts about the way the world works on an internet discussion board so that some evasive little **** who is losing an argument.

That doesn't even make sense. You are lacking a predicate. So that some evasive little **** who is losing an argument... what?

 

Anyway, yes. You must prove it because it's neither a fundamental fact nor an obvious one -- your saying so doesn't make it so.

 

"The Earth is obviously flat."

 

 

If capitalism is not a world system, why is there such an extensive history of economic imperialism before and after decolonization? Why did the United States overthrow/try to overthrow the governments of Guatemala, Iran, Cambodia, Venezuela, etc? These did not serve a strategic interest (none of these countries were/are actual threats), nor did it counter Soviet influence (none of these countries were Soviet influenced).

The USSR engaged in imperialism as much as it could. Show why imperialism necessitates capitalism and how that relates to Soviet foreign policy.

 

 

Except that now that people have experienced both systems, their positive opinions of free market capitalism are worse? Hmm... almost as though I'm right and you're wrong.

Ah, yes. They don't like capitalism at all... yet they are generally happier and like capitalism better still.

 

 

 

 

Hey, what's the vote % for communist parties in those countries? Yeah, they sure want back on the Iron Curtain.

 

 

lol nice evasion tactic, real smooth, almost invisible to the blind.

"Help help someone demanded that I find evidence for my rancid rhetoric! The party committee guys said this wouldn't happen!"

 

 

"Are you satisfied," "are you happy" and similar questions have virtually nothing to do with what the situation in the country actually is. You are the one who brought up that question. This is a very dishonest statement.

No. The question was brought up in the same document you brought up as "evidence" that people want communism back, so it's perfectly relevant. It is in fact your attempt to disregard part of the document that is dishonest.

 

 

Yugoslavia.

Yeah, so successful that it didn't last half a century -- and then not even violence could keep it together.

 

Good is bad, success is failure, and freedom is oppression. I think I'm finally starting to understand.

Edited April 30, 2010 by 213374U

[I want teh kotor 3]

How 'bout this: Find me an example of a single successful Commie deathcamp state that wasn't founded or maintained through murder.

Yugoslavia.

 

Yugoslavia was successful in the same way your arguments are successful: not at all.

[lord of flies]

"Help help someone demanded that I find evidence for my rancid rhetoric! The party committee guys said this wouldn't happen!"

Your evasion is only difficult to detect in your own twisted mind. I actually wrote out an entire post in response to your post, but your evasion is pissing me off, so I'm not going to respond to your posts until you answer the original question or admit that you were wrong. I have proffered evidence for everything that I've said that was fact, but you're relying on a style-over-substance fallacy and thus avoiding backing up your own arguments (supposedly based on fact, not that anyone could tell from reading your posts).

Yugoslavia was successful in the same way your arguments are successful: not at all.

lol okay then there are no successful communist states that were founded on murder either. How do you like that?

[I want teh kotor 3]

Right- no Commie states have been successful... The USSR didn't make it a century, China is in the process of de-Commieizing itself, and the rest are pathetic groupings of murdering scum.

[lord of flies]

Right- no Commie states have been successful... The USSR didn't make it a century, China is in the process of de-Commieizing itself, and the rest are pathetic groupings of murdering scum.

lol okay whatever. I thought we were talking about the violence of communist countries, not asking for some very high standard of "success."