And there goes Venezuela

[Killian Kalthorne]

Well, it saves money and resources on a correctional system.

[lord of flies]

Which is at least still essentially democratic with more than one party and a free press.

Venezuela has those too, over here in the real world.

[Tigranes]

Anyway, Tigranes, I'd like you to reply to this, because I can't be bothered typing the whole thing out again: Explain to me how you are going to maintain fair and transparent elections without an independent and free press?

 

Because democracy without a critical and independent press is like a judge whose wages are paid by your accuser.

 

You don't. You do need a robust and at least fairly independent press to have a good chance at fair and transparent elections. Yet the truth is that many countries in the world now sport illiberal democracies, where a democratic system of government does not necessarily come together with a liberal society.

 

You could simply write these off as 'half-democracies' or 'not-rly-democracies' still in development that have yet to be put right, and theoretically speaking you'd be correct. The thing is, though, there seems to be a trend towards these illiberal democracies as a viable option for various countries... Venezeula might count as one, I think. i.e. countries which have the democratic election part down, but aren't so keen about following that up with free press, etc.

[Humodour]

Yes, Brazil is far more democratic than the US. I just heard a report yesterday how in Brazil police don't bother to arrest criminals, they just execute them on the spot.

 

Oh really? Feel free to provide us with that report.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Here you go: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-12...il-police_N.htm

 

Of course it is from HRW, but still.

[Humodour]

Here you go: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-12...il-police_N.htm

 

Of course it is from HRW, but still.

 

Thanks for the article. That's ****ed up, but it's not like the orders for those killings come from the judiciary, legislature or the executive. It's a case of shady cops with itchy trigger fingers working in even shadier crime-ridden areas. It seems like a matter similar to corruption (which Brazil is trying hard to remove): decentralised, anarchic behaviour.

 

From a theoretical and cultural perspective, though, Brazil's political system is more representative and more utilitarian than America's.

[Walsingham]

I believe the point Mr Krezack was trying to make is that a democracy without a free press is like a car without wheels. It may still be a car but you won't get anything like the optimal performance out of it.

Eighty percent of the public in the United States believes that the country is "run by a few big interests looking out for themselves." "Optimal performance" and bourgeois democracy cannot fit together.

Explain to me how you are going to maintain fair and transparent elections without an independent and free press?

Self control.

 

e: besides, the idea that Venezuela doesn't have a free press is bull**** that the US comes up with to prepare for the 2012 coup d'etat.

 

I don't know enough about Venezuela to address your first objection, so I've cut it. But I'm genuinely tickled by the notion you have that an election decision based on information which has been processed in an open and (at least ostensibly) free fashion is not a prerequisite for that decision amounting to democracy. But then I'll just chalk it up on the list of mad things you believe such as the force required to govern depends on the degree to which the governance is alien to the governed.

 

As for coup d'etat, I would have thought a big strong socialist like you would love coup d'etat. Plenty of shooting and waving banners from the top of cobblestone barricades. I'm sure you'd acquit yourself with the same admirable bravery you display in taking us all on.