Radical left-wing French politician wears hijab.

[lord of flies]

She should be wearing something that covers her entire face.. R00fles!

Hahaha. Owned by Volourn. How often does that happen?!

What a surprise, Too Elite For You openly approves of the objectification of women.

[Sand]

LoF fails at sarcasm.

 

I don't get why Islam gets all up in arms what women wear. Let them wear what they want and not force veils, hijabs, burqas, or whatever. Hell, let the women run around naked if they so wish. The same if they want to be covered to. I don't see why it is anyone's business what a person wears or not wears except the person him or herself. That is one thing I hate most about religions. They try to tell you what to do. Let people live the way they want to live. Religious nutjobs need to mind their own frakin' business.

[Humodour]

I hate to have to agree with the french. Although much more than that will be necessary to stop Islam.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a fearmongering bigot.

[lord of flies]

LoF fails at sarcasm.

 

I don't get why Islam gets all up in arms what women wear. Let them wear what they want and not force veils, hijabs, burqas, or whatever. Hell, let the women run around naked if they so wish. The same if they want to be covered to. I don't see why it is anyone's business what a person wears or not wears except the person him or herself. That is one thing I hate most about religions. They try to tell you what to do. Let people live the way they want to live. Religious nutjobs need to mind their own frakin' business.

This woman (and, I imagine, most Muslim women in France) chooses to wear the hijab of her own free will. It takes only a moment's thought to reach that conclusion; if a male relative was forcing her to wear one, I highly doubt he'd allow her to join the New Anti-Capitalist Party and become a candidate for election.

[RPGmasterBoo]

*sigh* the french are right

 

I hate to have to agree with the french. Although much more than that will be necessary to stop Islam.

"Stopping Islam" is a childish mantra of people who don't understand how things like "social class," "political regressivism" and "religion" intersect. French Catholics whining about French Muslims is even more idiotic than atheists who attack literally every Christian.

 

The woman is a member of a radical anti-capitalist party, she just happens to be a Muslim. Why is it so necessary to "stop" the second largest religion in the world?

 

Actually I have the benefit of formal education in political ideologies and a specific interest in Marx, Bakunin, Makhno, Kropotkin etc. As far as economic policy is concerned I consider myself a part of the left.

 

Unlike you I recognize that large parts of their thought aren't applicable anymore in the world, especially the ones that don't concern the workings and flaws of a capitalistic society. They share the same idiotic and dysfunctional idea of a multiculturalist society that liberals have, completely ignoring that its an unreachable fantasy with no grounding in history or human nature.

 

Because you jump to associate yourself with any left extreme viewpoint you fail to see that people peoples loyalties don't necessarily lie where they say they do. Islam is a viewpoint that by necessity takes precedence over any other belief because it considers itself the only truth and has a political framework. Thus any muslim politician that espouses leftist viewpoints while at the same time flaunting their religion is in an irreconcilable position. You're either a muslim, or a communist. There is no middle ground.

Obviously she's a muslim using the French tolerance of leftist ideology as a cover to advance a religious cause.

 

You're similar to them. Communism and the left in general isn't an ideology you have accepted rationally - you express it with the religious fervor of a christian priest from the middle ages. Like any other true believer you just see things as they fit your theories. Which is why you don't see that the world has moved on from Marx and all the rest and left them in "the dustbin of history".

Edited February 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[RPGmasterBoo]

I hate to have to agree with the french. Although much more than that will be necessary to stop Islam.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a fearmongering bigot.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a person at the literal end of the world, practically divorced from the real problems of europe and the west

 

You might be able to indulge in any sort of fantasy in your island retreat but the rest of us don't have that luxury.

[Humodour]

I hate to have to agree with the french. Although much more than that will be necessary to stop Islam.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a fearmongering bigot.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a person at the literal end of the world, practically divorced from the real problems of europe and the west

 

You might be able to indulge in any sort of fantasy in your island retreat but the rest of us don't have that luxury.

 

Oh, no, I hear that kind of pathetic bigotry here as well. OH NO THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING, THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING!

[RPGmasterBoo]

I hate to have to agree with the french. Although much more than that will be necessary to stop Islam.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a fearmongering bigot.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a person at the literal end of the world, practically divorced from the real problems of europe and the west

 

You might be able to indulge in any sort of fantasy in your island retreat but the rest of us don't have that luxury.

 

Oh, no, I hear that kind of pathetic bigotry here as well. OH NO THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING, THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING!

 

 

They're not coming to you unless they swim real well. Enjoy your comfort while it lasts. When you've been a christian in their empire for 300 years you will learn what fear and suffering is.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Tower

 

On May 31, 1809 on Čegar Hill a few kilometers northeast of Niš, Serbian insurrectionists suffered their greatest defeat in the First Serbian Uprising against the Ottoman Empire (1804-1813). The insurrectionists' advance towards Niš was stopped here and, when the far stronger Turkish forces attacked, the battle was ended by the Serbian commander Stevan Sinđelić, who sacrificially fired at his gunpowder depot in order to avoid surrendering to the Turks, killing himself, the rest of his men, and the advancing Turks.

 

After the retreat of the Serbian rebel army, the Turkish commander of Niš, Hursid Pasha, ordered that the heads of the killed Serbs were to be mounted on a tower to serve as a warning to whoever opposed the Ottoman Empire. In all, 952 skulls were included, with the skull of Sinđelić placed at the top. The scalps from the skulls were stuffed with cotton and sent to Constantinople (modern Istanbul) as proof for Sultan Mahmud II.

Edited February 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Humodour]

I hate to have to agree with the french. Although much more than that will be necessary to stop Islam.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a fearmongering bigot.

 

I'm not sure why I expected any other comment from a person at the literal end of the world, practically divorced from the real problems of europe and the west

 

You might be able to indulge in any sort of fantasy in your island retreat but the rest of us don't have that luxury.

 

Oh, no, I hear that kind of pathetic bigotry here as well. OH NO THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING, THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING!

 

They're not coming to you unless they swim real well. Enjoy your comfort while it lasts.

 

You ignorant fool, Australia has a massive Middle Eastern refugee and skilled immigrant intake every year, and one of the primary election issues here is what to do about 'boat people' - typically Middle Eastern people who arrive here smuggled in on shoddy unsafe boats fleeing oppression (refugees) or seeking better economic conditions (illegal immigrants). Arabic is roughly the most commonly spoken foreign language in Australia, along with Greek, Italian and Cantonese. Australia's closest neighbour (and I mean close enough to swim to at points) is the largest Muslim country in the world (and I'll add one of the largest democracies).

 

Australia is 1.7% Muslim

Serbia is 3.2%

UK is 2.7%

Spain is 2.5%

Italy is 1.5%

Ireland is less than 0.5%

Romania is 0.3%

 

France and the Netherlands? About 6%. You know why? Because during the Cold War their governments promoted a massive Muslim immigrant influx to help with unskilled labour shortages at the time. They stuck around when the projects were completed, and because they were unskilled, poor, and often spoke little of the native language, civil unrest problems emerged. The governments had no foresight, and it had little to do with the specific ethnic groups used and everything to do with their socio-economic status.

 

As I said, you are a bigoted fearmonger. There is no 'Muslim problem' in Europe to be worried about.

 

When you've been a christian in their empire for 300 years you will learn what fear and suffering is.

 

Oh yes, the Christians never did anything so barbaric! (Hint: that was massive sarcasm)

 

I imagine part of your hatred of Muslims probably stems from the fact the Kosovo is majority-Muslim.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Krezack

[RPGmasterBoo]

Then you're screwed.

 

There is no hatred. No desire to settle any old scores. Only the necessity to solve an issue before it becomes a problem.

 

The skull tower says everything there is to say. The rest I leave up to your ignorance and lack of grounding in history. If you're referring to the crusades the medieval Serbian state took no part of them. I'm an atheist myself. I'm not even complaining about barbarism of this or that side. The only thing I want is to stay on top by any means necessary. Europe is lenient and foolish and that will come back to haunt it.

 

The only ones fighting are Americans but in the wrong places and for the wrong reasons. What a waste.

Edited February 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Humodour]

Then you're screwed.

 

There is no hatred. Only the necessity to solve an issue before it becomes a problem.

 

The skull tower says everything there is to say. The rest I leave up to your ignorance and lack of grounding in history.

 

Oh well done, bravo! Europe and Australia are screwed because about 2% of the population are Muslim and part of the Ottoman Empire committed barbaric acts hundreds of years ago!

 

Where is that facepalm image when you need it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Then you're screwed.

 

There is no hatred. Only the necessity to solve an issue before it becomes a problem.

 

The skull tower says everything there is to say. The rest I leave up to your ignorance and lack of grounding in history.

 

Oh well done, bravo! Europe and Australia are screwed because about 2% of the population are Muslim and part of the Ottoman Empire committed barbaric acts hundreds of years ago!

 

Where is that facepalm image when you need it.

 

*sigh* do find it, because I really need it myself

 

When the cartoonists from Denmark released those pics of Muhammad all the muslim world was in an uproar. Comical pictures of Jesus or Buddha abound, yet they get all uptight over some newspaper in Denmark. I recall massive destruction of danish goods and burnings of flags and whatnot. And the EU did next to nothing to protect Denmark from this. What makes them special and beyond criticism? Nothing. They're just abusing EU's political system and weak attitude to advance their agenda. The referendum in Switzerland tells you everything the common european thinks of Islam. If that model of tolerance and peace votes no to Islamic bullsh!t then its obvious how far things have gone.

But then again you're from Australia so *shrugs*

Edited February 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Humodour]

Then you're screwed.

 

There is no hatred. Only the necessity to solve an issue before it becomes a problem.

 

The skull tower says everything there is to say. The rest I leave up to your ignorance and lack of grounding in history.

 

Oh well done, bravo! Europe and Australia are screwed because about 2% of the population are Muslim and part of the Ottoman Empire committed barbaric acts hundreds of years ago!

 

Where is that facepalm image when you need it.

 

*sigh* do find it, because I really need it myself

 

Look, feel free to provide an argument against Muslim immigration that doesn't consist of a historical anecdote from 200 years ago about an empire that no longer exists and was no more barbaric than the British one.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Krezack

[Gorgon]

What exactly is it that you fear, that Europe wills start to become sharia states one by one ?

[RPGmasterBoo]

There are plenty of immigrant workers with no religious strings or issues attached.

 

No one needs muslims, they're just trouble, or will be in the long run. By comparison the chinese immigration is the epitome of quiet and undemanding. Not that I particularly favor one over the other, but if you have to choose then choose wisely for christ's sakes.

Black sub-saharan africans are most devoid of troublesome baggage. Most have weak home states and a weak religious identity, and will accept whatever is given to them.

 

Of course that's a really stupid solution as well. The real solution is increasing european birth rates to expand the number of young people available for work and eliminate the need for migrant workers.

As for muslim immigration - ban it. Justification? Who says you need one? Your country - your right to choose who gets in or not. Period.

[RPGmasterBoo]

What exactly is it that you fear, that Europe wills start to become sharia states one by one ?

 

Things are never that dramatic. European birth rates drop and muslim ones expand to the point where they have a sufficient and coherent base of voters to influence decision making in democratic states (anything over 10% must not happen). They will use this to build mosques, religious universities and expand their sphere of infulence. It will also paralyze any decisive action that EU states might take against muslim states, because no politician wants his voting base removed. This will also make EU states subject to terrorist attack because of inevitable harboring of terrorists the minority comes with.

Everything about it is completely unnecessary.

 

Why import organized and coherent immigrants when you can have disorganized and weak ones? Why import immigrants with a strong identity not compatible with yours?

 

its so foolish and senseless I have no word for it.

 

Even those terrorist attacks are a result of the west's unwillingness to show its power. They waste time bombing Serbia and having wars all over the place instead of creating a coherent, powerful state in EU. The Islamic world understands only power. Unwillingness to use it is seen as weakness. If the EU threatened to lay waste to Saudi Arabia (or at least to start deporting immigrants en masse) in the wake of muslim savagery towards Denmark you'd see how that would get them in line. You wouldn't have a terrorist attack anywhere in the near future or any outcries over civil rights.

Edited February 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Killian Kalthorne]

This woman (and, I imagine, most Muslim women in France) chooses to wear the hijab of her own free will. It takes only a moment's thought to reach that conclusion; if a male relative was forcing her to wear one, I highly doubt he'd allow her to join the New Anti-Capitalist Party and become a candidate for election.

 

It was a general statement of Islam as a whole, and not just in France, LoF. If this was going on under Taliban controlled areas she would have been killed. The only reason why she hasn't been killed by a male relative is because she is in France, at least that is the way I see it. I watch the news, I see how Muslims react to certain events and people. Islam is the most bloodthirsty religion in the 20th and 21st century.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Killian Kalthorne

[Gorgon]

There certainly is an ass backwards fundamentalist element to Islam, and none of us have to apologise for disliking it intensely, just as long as you realise that it's not the whole story, it's just the people who yell the loudest who get all the attention.

[RPGmasterBoo]

There certainly is an ass backwards fundamentalist element to Islam, and none of us have to apologise for disliking it intensely, just as long as you realise that it's not the whole story, it's just the people who yell the loudest who get all the attention.

 

The ones who yell loudest are the ones that matter. Eg: Hitler. Not all germans were Nazis but it turned out that enough of them were to drag along all the rest. Its the same case with Islam. You don't need even the support of the majority to advance such a fundamentalist agenda, all you need is a well organized minority. The non fundamentalist Islamic individuals have no sway in the Islamic world. Consequently they're completely unimportant.

 

Islamic fundamentalism is no Nazism in strength and power, but not breaking its back when you have the resources and power is insane. Saudi Arabia is the key, its the heart of both terrorism and muslim faith. Break it and the problem is set back so far as to make it irrelevant. But no, everyone's at the fools errands in Afghanistan and Iraq. As if that bunch of rocks and sand is the center of anything. Iraq wasn't even a terrorist stronghold while Saddam was in place.

 

 

The wisdom of politics is making sure you eliminate potential problems before they occur. That's all there is to it.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I still remember the images of 9/11 and the parties that were going on in many Middle Eastern countries. These weren't extremists. These were just average Joe Muslims. I will show them as much sympathy as they showed us.

 

Never forget. Never forgive.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I still remember the images of 9/11 and the parties that were going on in many Middle Eastern countries. These weren't extremists. These were just average Joe Muslims. I will show them as much sympathy as they showed us.

 

Never forget. Never forgive.

 

That's what I'm trying to explain but no one believes me. The only difference between 90% of the muslims is that some act upon their beliefs and the rest cheer when the former succeed. The unity they have in certain attitudes is impressive... and problematic.

[Morgoth]

What I certainly noticed in the last years is that a differentiated and reasonable discussion about muslims and Islam seem to be more and more abandoned by the media. Always when you pick up some ****ty tabloid that is about Islam you see a black background and an opressed woman/jihad warrior or some kind of fearful crap on it.

With this, you only instill a negative view about a whole community. That massive immigration into Europe can cause problems is not a new phenomenon (think of 19th century industrialisation and mass movements from Eastern to western Europe), but I miss a sensible and problem-solving-oriented discourse about this on an European level. Let's not forget that condemning a whole religion/culture/ethnicy once let to a human disaster not too long ago. In this in the middle of Europe.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Morgoth

[Fionavar]

Well that's enough of that ...