More inspiring stuff

[Guard Dog]

Really, would anybody want to use a tunnel that one oddly obsessed dude carved all by himself? I doubt that the guy has the engineering or geological expertise necessary to assess and ensure its structural soundness. (Indeed, the difficulties in making the passageway safe might well be the reason that the local government refused to take on the project.)

 

It is possible though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_I...Great_Escape.22

[Tigranes]

Assuming everyone's read the article, I'd challenge those who say he was 'stupid' to put themselves in his position and wonder what a more 'intelligent' course of action might have been, short of leaving the village. I doubt he would have had access to a lot of resources including the internet and connections to the bureaucracy or private companies, or any money. 14 years of his life on a pretty damn boring hobby, the payoff being safety and economic benefits for himself, his friends and family, his children and everyone in the village for years to come.

[Slowtrain]

Assuming everyone's read the article, I'd challenge those who say he was 'stupid' to put themselves in his position and wonder what a more 'intelligent' course of action might have been, short of leaving the village. I doubt he would have had access to a lot of resources including the internet and connections to the bureaucracy or private companies, or any money. 14 years of his life on a pretty damn boring hobby, the payoff being safety and economic benefits for himself, his friends and family, his children and everyone in the village for years to come.

 

 

Without being in that situation its impossible to say for sure, but the commitment of 14 years of massive effort is pretty ridiculously huge. It would seem to me that if you are willing to put forth that immense amount of effort and time there must be ways to make it payoff better.

 

Like I said earlier, the effort is worth applauding, but simply applying huge effort without considering where to spend that effort for the best result isn't always the smartest thing.

[Walsingham]

Ah, OK GD. I see what you're driving at now. I apologise for not clarifying first.

 

Yes, it is disturbing how many people view making money as evil.

 

On the other hand, I do take the view that once you've made 100million then you've got enough, and any sane man would indulge his taste in art and philanthropy rather than keep pursuing money like an angry beaver.

 

Incidentally, My new flame has to be Lewis Black, and here he is talking about greed.

[TheHarlequin]

@GD: Not to defend Harlie's (equally extreme, on the other side) point of view, but you're overstating. The powers of government are unquestionably greater than those of a private company, but in a modern representative democracy the restraints on the use of those powers are greater, too. Seizures, arrests, etc., require due process. Eminent domain requires just compensation. And public accountability through watchdog organizations, the free press, and the electoral process also provides a strong check on governmental overreaching. (Note: these are U.S. examples, but similar provisions are in place in most other western democracies.) There are statutory, common law, and contractual restraints on what businesses may do in their interactions with ordinary people, but they often aren't as rigorous, and enforcement of them usually requires some (often prohibitively expensive) litigation. Both businesses and governments sometimes give the citizenry reason to fear their power-- which fear seems greater and more reasonable is going to depend on your particular situation.

 

 

(Sidenote: After working in gov't for a number of years, it always boggles my mind a bit to think that things like nepotism and bribery are legal in the private sector.)

 

Edit: Also, I is slow-- I see that your tone moderated somewhat in your 9:22 (EST) post.

 

What he (and the others) said above. Took the words out of my mouth.

[Enoch]

Really, would anybody want to use a tunnel that one oddly obsessed dude carved all by himself? I doubt that the guy has the engineering or geological expertise necessary to assess and ensure its structural soundness. (Indeed, the difficulties in making the passageway safe might well be the reason that the local government refused to take on the project.)

 

It is possible though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_I...Great_Escape.22

Ha! Shortly after I wrote that post, I mused that I should've appended "for any purpose other than escaping a Nazi prison camp" to the first sentence.

[Guard Dog]

Ultimately, I agree. WHich is why I referred to an ideal state vs a real world state. However, people's expectations are that the government will attempt to protect them and will hold the government accountable for that. And while a lot of governmental accountability is far beyond the reach of the average citizen, there is still more accountablity than large scale business, which essentially operates with impunity outside of governmental regulation.

 

I really disagree with you here. You have far more power over business than government. If you don't like what a certain business does you can simply not buy their product or not use their service. You can withhold from them the only thing that matters, your money. Even more, you can organize others to do the same. It's called boycotting. With a little bit time it is VERY effective. If the government does something you do not like you still have to pay your taxes. Sure you can call your Reps and Senators, odds are they will be nice to you on the phone and do whatever the hell they want anyway. You have power over your government once every two years. You have power over business every single day.

 

You guys need to understand something here. Government is evil. A necsassary one without question, but still evil and is best when taken in small doses. The trend in the US right now is to empower it at the expense of personal and economic freedom, and I seems to hear a lot of posters here calling for that too and that just scares the hell out of me.

 

I promise you Slowtrain, if you get audited by the IRS just one time it will make a Libertarian out of you.

[Guard Dog]

Really, would anybody want to use a tunnel that one oddly obsessed dude carved all by himself? I doubt that the guy has the engineering or geological expertise necessary to assess and ensure its structural soundness. (Indeed, the difficulties in making the passageway safe might well be the reason that the local government refused to take on the project.)

 

It is possible though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_I...Great_Escape.22

Ha! Shortly after I wrote that post, I mused that I should've appended "for any purpose other than escaping a Nazi prison camp" to the first sentence.

 

I meant it was possible to build a stable tunnel using crude tools! Although it would be a stretch to call their tunnel stable since it collapsed on them the night they escaped.

[Trenitay]

You have far more power over business than government. If you don't like what a certain business does you can simply not buy their product or not use their service. You can withhold from them the only thing that matters, your money. Even more, you can organize others to do the same. It's called boycotting.

 

Boycotting only works if the people are willing to not buy a certain company's product. There are too many people willing to buy anything at the lowest price so they can save a buck to really do an effective boycott. That's the way it is around here anyway, I don't know about everywhere else.

[Slowtrain]

[ You have far more power over business than government. If you don't like what a certain business does you can simply not buy their product or not use their service. You can withhold from them the only thing that matters, your money. Even more, you can organize others to do the same. It's called boycotting. With a little bit time it is VERY effective.

 

While boycotting may have some effect on some businessess on some scale, many of the large companies are beyond the effects of boycott, Oil companies, energy companies, trading companies. etc. Many of these companies don't even deal directly with the consumer but provide wholesale services to pther companies

 

I promise you Slowtrain, if you get audited by the IRS just one time it will make a Libertarian out of you.

 

 

Could be right. I'm not a proponent of government as the cure all. At the moment, I see it as the lesser of two evils in most cases. That could always change depending on personal experiences.

[Walsingham]

You have far more power over business than government. If you don't like what a certain business does you can simply not buy their product or not use their service. You can withhold from them the only thing that matters, your money. Even more, you can organize others to do the same. It's called boycotting.

 

Boycotting only works if the people are willing to not buy a certain company's product. There are too many people willing to buy anything at the lowest price so they can save a buck to really do an effective boycott. That's the way it is around here anyway, I don't know about everywhere else.

 

MLK believed in boycott power. His final speech talked about it. Me, I'm not so certain. People are so defined by corporate identity - Having a nike tattoo anyone? - that I think they find it fundamentallly disturbing to exercise choice.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Boycots and the idea of consumer power is completely ridicilous. The success rate is something like 1:1000000

[Lare Kikkeli]

boycotting has about the same effect as voting

[Walsingham]

Boycots and the idea of consumer power is completely ridicilous. The success rate is something like 1:1000000

 

Are you mad? Companies spend all their time panicking about people not buying their products or services. The problem isn't the capability, it's the delivery of that capability. I've been giving this quite a bit of thought recently, off and on, and reckon you need something like a consumer union, with legally binding group behaviour. So when people say they will boycott they actually have to do so. Set something liek that up and the banks would absolutely wet themselves.

[Guard Dog]

you need something like a consumer union, with legally binding group behaviour. So when people say they will boycott they actually have to do so. Set something liek that up and the banks would absolutely wet themselves.

 

Holy S**t! Haven't you read anything I've said? Business is better than government because it does not COMPEL you to do anything. You can CHOOSE to patronize it or not. Government does not give you a choice in ANYTHING. "Do as we say or we will destroy you." Consumer union with leagally binding power over people behaviour? What the hell does that sound like to you?

 

@ Everyone else: Of course businesses care about making money! You know where they stand, where you stand with them. You have something they want, they are offering you something you might want. Obsidian Entertainment is making Alpha Protocol to make money! They are not doing you a favor, they are not doing it to mke the world a better place. If you buy it they will make a profit off of it. It absolutely boggles the mind why that is a bad thing to a few of you. If you buy it and enjoy it then thats great but thats not why they did it. Whats more, they are not FORCING you to buy it. If you don't like the company or what they do, you do not have to buy their product. Thats called freedom. Do you enjoy the same relationship with your government? Any government? No.

 

As many of you astutely pointed out, government does not care about making money. Indeed, they can waste and lose and misuse money with near impunity because when it runs out they just tax you more. If government does not care about making money, what do they care about? If you think it's the citizens you are either a fool or willfully ignorant. If it is the latter, please repeat after me: "BAA". What government cares about is control. Control over you, over you money, life, actions, your very thoughts. In the last three US administrations, seventeen years now, can you name one thing, ONE FREAKING THING the US government has done that resulted in less governemnt control over something. There is only one thing, tax cuts. Under Clinton in '97 and under Bush in '01. Of couse that has been countered by tax increases so its a small thing.

 

I don't understand you guys. Regulating business is the proper role of a government. Anti trust laws, enviormental regulations, fair trade and even labor laws are necassary. But it sould be a silk leash, not an iron chain. But this mindset that the government is the paragon of good and virtue looking to protect you from the big, bad, business that only cares about ...profit. It makes no sense. Business cannot take your freedom away, they cannot take your money away. Your government can, so who is the bigger threat?

 

"Government is not compassion ... Government is nothing more than structured, widespread coercion ..." -- Glen Allport

[Lare Kikkeli]

I'll summarize the above post: money money money money money money MY money money money money money money.

[Guard Dog]

I'll summarize the above post: money money money money money money MY money money money money money money.

You missed the point completely. It's: Freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom

[Walsingham]

I'm afraid I'm going to be slightly rude to you GD: you're loopy. Or at least by some perspectives.

 

Government, all government exists to harness the people (usually via tax these days) under it to a given objective. That objective depends on the government. In theory this can be world-changing, especially in your country, where a fraction of your output represents hitherto unimaginable potential. I would think it was self-evident that there are a great many massive projects which can benefit all under them. The military is an obvious one, and an ancient one. But it could be the space race or a cure for cancer.

 

It is no good expecting private companies to embark on some of the most ambitious and useful projects. Returns have to occur within an investor's lifetime, and they usually have to compete with the return on other investments like internet porn or oil futures etc. That is even where private companies might possess the capital in the first place.

 

If you accept this then you must admit that governments have huge potential for good. The USA has its constitutional roots in a different era, when mankind was basically incapable of large scale projects other then war (and then very badly). But most democratic countries now work on the premise that provided they do what we as the people say then good things will happen.

 

However, you are arguing, or so it seems to me, that governments are both out of control and incapable of being domesticated, which I think is slightly loopy. As I say.

[TheHarlequin]

I'll summarize the above post: money money money money money money MY money money money money money money.

You missed the point completely. It's: Freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom

 

Hate to break it to you ronny is dead. The whole 'govt is evil' is such a crock. You rather give the keys to the kingdom to profit wh*res who car nothing for you or the enviroment as long as they can make a buck. Like I said before de-regulation got us IN THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Thats a undisputed fact even the rep talking heads on fox don't dispute that.

 

Yet here you are banging on the the same drum with no new ideas.. just the same deregulate everything so big business can have a field day and gov't is 'evil'. Thats the best you got?

[Guard Dog]

Hate to break it to you ronny is dead. The whole 'govt is evil' is such a crock. You rather give the keys to the kingdom to profit wh*res who car nothing for you or the enviroment as long as they can make a buck.

 

Oh here we go again, profit is evil, ruin the envorment, yadda yadda ya. Can you hum that to the tune of La Internationale?

 

Like I said before de-regulation got us IN THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Thats a undisputed fact even the rep talking heads on fox don't dispute that.

 

Is that right? Well then, lets try a little experiment. Why don't you post a few examples of deregulation here in the US over the past thirty or so years and explain how they got us "in this mess". Which mess were you referring to anyway? I could think of several. The funny thing is Harlequin you are so close to being right about something but I'll bet the facts about who is really behind deregulation will blow your mind. Specific examples please Harlequin, not vauge talking points about evil business and benevolent politicians. I can come up with three right off the top of my head.

 

Remember, I posted several times government does have a role to play.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Goverments are democraticly elected to follow the will of the people, Companies are completely feudal

 

 

Boycots and the idea of consumer power is completely ridicilous. The success rate is something like 1:1000000

 

Are you mad? Companies spend all their time panicking about people not buying their products or services. The problem isn't the capability, it's the delivery of that capability. I've been giving this quite a bit of thought recently, off and on, and reckon you need something like a consumer union, with legally binding group behaviour. So when people say they will boycott they actually have to do so. Set something liek that up and the banks would absolutely wet themselves.

 

 

That is the problem right there, it only works if enough people do it and they NEVER do. But I do think the companies would get very worried if we could actually get a consumer union going.

[Rosbjerg]

So worried in fact that I'm quite sure they would try everything in their power to stop it.. kinda like the first worker's unions, it would be interesting if it happened, seeing how those unions revolutionized working conditions and fair pay.

[Lare Kikkeli]

Americans don't believe in unions, they're against FREEDOM

[Guard Dog]

Americans don't believe in unions, they're against FREEDOM

Wrong again. Two of the largest and most influential Unions in the world are right here in the USA along with thousands of smaller ones. What we don't like is coercion. You guys lost me on the consumer union idea with this: "a consumer union, with legally binding group behaviour". With that phase Wals idea goes from organized boycotts (which are perfectly fine) to yet another mob of pushy @$$holes telling other people what they can an cannot do with their money and the legal authority to force somone to conform.

 

When you get right down to it, the biggest thing I have against government is that all too often it is nothing more than a tool for a small group of idealogical zealots to ram their politics down everyone elses throats. Thats why it should be given as little power as possible. It should be strong enough to do what it must, but no so strong as to become overbearing, or worse. We used to have that but we blew it starting with FDR, then after Nixon it really began to fall apart.

[Rosbjerg]

What we don't like is coercion. You guys lost me on the consumer union idea with this: "a consumer union, with legally binding group behaviour".

 

Have to agree with you there.. but the irony is that it probably wouldn't work without such a system (unless the union somehow offered a discount equal to what ever was lost on buying a similar ware, that didn't suffer from whatever they want to prevent).