FO: NV

[Wombat]

I agree that it's a rather weak argument. Imagination plays a great role in any art form but it is tough to be defined...even in Kantian philosophy.

 

What I mean to say is not that imagination only has a part in text-based forms. I'm using imagination here very conservatively-- Focusing the mind to construct a world out of descriptive text. My point was that words lack what video and audio cues have and vice versa. They're both completely means to the same end. The end being, in this case, describing a smell.

 

I think that if the player is fully entrenched ("IMMERSED" is what i think the PR people want me to say) in a game world, or meant to be, I think it's awkward and pointless to try to construct an imaginary world with text that looks and acts exactly the same way

If you pull out and increase the emotional distance, it's more appropriate. If New Vegas did turn out to be isometric, I'd be all for it. I'm not saying text is worse than cool grafix, I'm just saying that it's much less appropriate in the type of game Fallout 3 (and likely New Vegas) are trying to be. Do I wish they were trying to be an isometric game with lots of text? Yes, of course!

Then, I agree with your conclusion while I'm bit lost with the argument about imagination. In Kantian epistemology, imagination plays a role which is similar to what you described, means, focusing the mind to construct a world out of..., here, although you wrote descriptive text, I'd point out that it can be replaced by any sensory perceptions as well since the reality itself is constructed by functions of our mental/physical abilities.

 

In fact, in modern gaming, a computer presents a "world" for human-beings in a way they recognize it by employing physics engines and psychoacoustic processing, which constructs an imaginary "world" to present it to human-beings or players through pictures and sounds so that the players can "experience" the world. This is why, while back, I showed my skepticism to illusion argument because its nativity. Also, there was another argument about the fact Bethesda didn't even try to "realize" FO3 world using real life measurements of Washington.

 

However, I guess I have rumbled a bit. Basically, these things are made based on make-belief and I'd like the designers to employ any means available for them in order to let our game play experiences memorable.

[jero cvmi]

And how would the game show off smell? Texture? Softness? Visual and audio cues only stimulate two of our senses (although only four are relevant, unless you lick every item you find, Jack Sparrow style).

 

Text only stimulates the imagination. And when you're sitting inside of the world as opposed to above it, you don't want to rely on imagination to get a point across.

 

Compare Fallout 1's "For the first time in your life, you see natural sunlight" to Fallout 3's blowing out your vision as you exit the vault. Same idea requires different execution.

I never got to see that effect which is supposed to be so important as the pinnacle of immersion and graphical storytelling in fallout 3, because it happened so that i got out in nighttime. So i have to say i prefer good execution of textual representation, over sloppy execution of graphical representation.

 

I think Obsidian is pretty good at both, though.

[Tagaziel]

You said "How does it stimulate smell without audio or visual cues?"

That's like asking "How does text describe something without using any words?"

 

Unless the descriptions you read in books are so powerful that you can physically smell them, there's not much difference.

 

No, I asked "And how would the game show off smell? Texture? Softness? Visual and audio cues only stimulate two of our senses (although only four are relevant, unless you lick every item you find, Jack Sparrow style)."

 

You have failed to answer that question.

[alanschu]

Not that I disagree, but some of the other senses can be referenced with visual and audio cues.

 

 

If I walk into a kitchen and I see bacon cooking in the frying pan and can hear it sizzling, I don't need a text blog to tell me that the room is filled with the delicious aroma of cooked bacon.

[alanschu]

And how would the game show off smell? Texture? Softness? Visual and audio cues only stimulate two of our senses (although only four are relevant, unless you lick every item you find, Jack Sparrow style).

 

Text only stimulates the imagination. And when you're sitting inside of the world as opposed to above it, you don't want to rely on imagination to get a point across.

 

Compare Fallout 1's "For the first time in your life, you see natural sunlight" to Fallout 3's blowing out your vision as you exit the vault. Same idea requires different execution.

I never got to see that effect which is supposed to be so important as the pinnacle of immersion and graphical storytelling in fallout 3, because it happened so that i got out in nighttime. So i have to say i prefer good execution of textual representation, over sloppy execution of graphical representation.

 

I think Obsidian is pretty good at both, though.

 

 

Wowzers how long did you take in the introduction? Haha.

 

Having said that, it's actually a subtle attention to detail. If the game were to textually describe to you the sensation of experiencing natural sunlight, when it was actually dark outside, then it'd be a bad thing. It's too bad you missed the effect of coming out of the vault in the daylight. I thought it was awesome and something like that beats any textual description at all IMO.

[Tagaziel]

Wowzers how long did you take in the introduction? Haha.

 

Having said that, it's actually a subtle attention to detail. If the game were to textually describe to you the sensation of experiencing natural sunlight, when it was actually dark outside, then it'd be a bad thing. It's too bad you missed the effect of coming out of the vault in the daylight. I thought it was awesome and something like that beats any textual description at all IMO.

 

Did you play Fallout at all? It accounted for both day and night when coming out of the cave.

 

In Fo3, that moment was pretty much pointless to me, as the previews ruined every bit of surprise it might have had.

[Aristes]

That's great scene and I think it is enhanced by the experience of playing Fallout 1. In fact, the scene from Fallout 3 was far more powerful than the scene from Fallout 1, but part of the impact came from remembering seeing sunlight for the first time in Fallout 1. I have often wondered if the reason that I loved Fallout 1 so much was simply because it was something new. In a lot of ways, being the first game I played that made real use of the setting, the Fallout franchise introduced me to a world beyond fantasy CRPGs. I remember having a similar feeling when I first read the rulebook for Gamma World. That was something different, and the idea that I could role play something other than heroic fantasy, that maybe I could play a role of a person in a more desperate world in which there was no magical hand deciding the intrinsic good or evil of each action. If I played Fallout 1 today for the first time, would it have the same impact? I doubt it, but I also don't want to downplay the quality of the game. It was clearly a labor of love and it has deserved it reputation as a classic.

 

...And I want to be clear, I don't favor visual over textual based infrormation. There are scenes from literature that remain more powerful than any experience I have had watching a movie. However, there are scenes from film that provide a different experience, a novel experience, than I have had from any book.

 

For someone born and bred in the vault, I think the night sky, with countless stars would have just as much impact as daylight. Perhaps even moreso since daylight would likely blind someone not accustomed to it. However, how can a game hope to convey that idea graphically?

[alanschu]

Wowzers how long did you take in the introduction? Haha.

 

Having said that, it's actually a subtle attention to detail. If the game were to textually describe to you the sensation of experiencing natural sunlight, when it was actually dark outside, then it'd be a bad thing. It's too bad you missed the effect of coming out of the vault in the daylight. I thought it was awesome and something like that beats any textual description at all IMO.

 

Did you play Fallout at all? It accounted for both day and night when coming out of the cave.

 

In Fo3, that moment was pretty much pointless to me, as the previews ruined every bit of surprise it might have had.

 

 

It's been SEVERAL years since I last played Fallout. Probably 3 or 4. Though it seems I don't remember the little text blurb about how I feel sunshine for the first time. I will remember coming out of the vault in Fallout 3 though. Though I'll likely remember Fallout 1 and 2 more as a whole, since they were more enjoyable experiences.

 

Of course, it's also possible in the numerous playthroughs I had of the original Fallout, that I never left the cave at any other time than during the day. Perhaps they could have done something differently for coming out of the cave in Fallout 3.

 

 

And too bad for you for reading up on all the previews. It's hardly Fallout 3's fault that someone spoiled that moment of the game for you.

Edited July 6, 2009 by alanschu

[alanschu]

For someone born and bred in the vault, I think the night sky, with countless stars would have just as much impact as daylight. Perhaps even moreso since daylight would likely blind someone not accustomed to it. However, how can a game hope to convey that idea graphically?

 

 

I think this is a bit of a valid complaint, but also a bit of a failure for the player. It's very easy for me to roleplay characters in games like these, so seeing the stars for the first time had me pause to see the stars.

 

Some people might need that text blurb describing the amazement of seeing the stars for the first time for it to hit home I guess. Different strokes for different folks and I know that people probably don't get "into" their character as easily as I can.

[Aristes]

My point is that a designer trying to create the impact of seeing daylight for the first time can set the scene visually better he could for night. All RPGs favor players who can use their imagination. ...But that doesn't really have bearing on which is easier for the design team. I think it's more intuitive for the player to understand his awe at coming out of the vault and seeing daylight for the first time in his life. My imagination tells me that a night sky, an overcast sky, or sunrise or sunset would probably have a much greater effect on a person coming out from a vault for the first time in his life. If it were up to me, I would prefer to have the player come out of the vault at twilight with a huge orange moon hovering over the horizon.

 

You know, it's really hard to tell what will have the greatest impact on someone when he experiences something for the first time.

 

As for my question, I still ask, how can a game hope to convey that idea graphically? This isn't a trap. I detest clever arguments made in order to 'win' a discussion. I'm asking a legitimate question with keen interest in the answer. Clearly you and I can imagine the sheer power of the scene, but what would the designer use to deliver that impact to the player?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Aristes

[Tagaziel]

As for my question, I still ask, how can a game hope to convey that idea graphically? This isn't a trap. I detest clever arguments made in order to 'win' a discussion. I'm asking a legitimate question with keen interest in the answer. Clearly you and I can imagine the sheer power of the scene, but what would the designer use to deliver that impact to the player?

 

In Fo3, the cell-based engine is a limitation. The loading screen jumps in abruptly and affects the end result. If I made that scene in, say, Source engine, I'd make damn sure to use HDR or a similiar, fake effect in the scene.

 

Basically, when the player exits the Vault, he is greeted by the entry hallway littered with skeletons of those who didn't quite make it. They make crunching sounds as he goes by towards the bright light at the end of the entry tunnel, the contrast slowly sliding all the way up, until all he can see is the light itself and slowly, as he walks out, his eyesight gets accustomed to the light and the surroundings fade in. Fluidity of the scene is key - no abrupt loading screens, no pause to load, just the player walking out with the Vault blast door sliding in with a loud clang.

 

Contrast is key, the natural surroundings, sounds and sights of nature reclaiming the wasteland juxtaposed with the sterile, clean corridors of the Vault.

[bhlaab]

You said "How does it stimulate smell without audio or visual cues?"

That's like asking "How does text describe something without using any words?"

 

Unless the descriptions you read in books are so powerful that you can physically smell them, there's not much difference.

 

No, I asked "And how would the game show off smell? Texture? Softness? Visual and audio cues only stimulate two of our senses (although only four are relevant, unless you lick every item you find, Jack Sparrow style)."

 

You have failed to answer that question.

 

Visual and Audio cues. Happy?

[Tagaziel]

Visual and Audio cues. Happy?

 

Oh my, how could I fail to notice that you can hear smell and see the feel of paper.

[bhlaab]

Visual and Audio cues. Happy?

 

Oh my, how could I fail to notice that you can hear smell and see the feel of paper.

 

And my point, if you had read my posts instead of trying to maneuver me into the most perfectly snarky corner you could, is that text is no more or less likely to make you smell or feel something. It can only describe it, which is exactly what visual and audio cues do.

[alanschu]

The advantage of the text update is that it's explicit. You can't miss it.

 

 

So while walking out of the vault in Fallout 3 you might not think to yourself "Hey, this is the first time my PC has seen the stars," a text dialogue describing that your PC is seeing the stars for the first time is that reminder of the significance of his events.

[213374U]

On the other hand, the PC is dazzled by the sunlight when they first emerge from the Vault which, with the appropriate sound cues, can convey the significance of the moment just as well. Pretty bloody impossible to miss, too.

 

I also hate being told what my character "feels".

[bhlaab]

The advantage of the text update is that it's explicit. You can't miss it.

 

 

So while walking out of the vault in Fallout 3 you might not think to yourself "Hey, this is the first time my PC has seen the stars," a text dialogue describing that your PC is seeing the stars for the first time is that reminder of the significance of his events.

 

It's true that text is more explicit, but there are all types of camera framing techniques to send a pretty clear message. And, as I was arguing before, with a subjective camera it's probably not best to be explicit with such things and allow the player to draw their own conclusions.

[bhlaab]

I also hate being told what my character "feels".

 

Fallout was pretty good about this, having the text act more as a narrator than an external voice for the character. I'm sure it tripped up here and there, though.

[alanschu]

On the other hand, the PC is dazzled by the sunlight when they first emerge from the Vault which, with the appropriate sound cues, can convey the significance of the moment just as well. Pretty bloody impossible to miss, too.

 

I also hate being told what my character "feels".

 

 

That is true. Music can really help.

 

 

I also agree that I tend to hate it when my character is told to feel something.

[Gromnir]

is backtracking a bit, but anybody that believes that a game is made superior by including a definition o' "knife" (sans humor or some other similar secondary aspect) is embracing some kinda definition o' gaming goodness that is so alien to Gromnir that we cannot comprehend. fact that the knife nonsense were embraced by numerous folks is what genuine disturbs us.

 

...

 

the kinda stuff some o' you people sees as essential or meaningful is baffling to Gromnir. "knife"?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tagaziel]

I also hate being told what my character "feels".

 

Fallout 3's major failing: the game is built around your love for your father and doesn't even try to act as if one could feel anything else than unrestricted, completely compassionate love for that character.

[213374U]

Music can really help.

Yeah, isn't that one of FO3's worse aspects, though? In the "just out of the vault" scene, I don't even remember if any special sound effects or music are played. And despite having an awesome idea (listening to radio stations), they ended up with a half-assed Black Courier-jukebox hybrid. Funny, because some of the stations you can pick up, and the areas/sidequests they are associated with are very good and contribute a lot to the atmosphere; incidentally, they are also a good example of how you don't need a textbox to set the mood. But the freaking MAIN radio station of the wasteland gets repetitive after about twenty minutes.

 

 

Fallout 3's major failing: the game is built around your love for your father and doesn't even try to act as if one could feel anything else than unrestricted, completely compassionate love for that character.

But man, how can you feel anything BUT love for Qui-Gon Jinn? Edited July 6, 2009 by 213374U

[alanschu]

haha definitely.

 

I can't think of any instances of FO3 where I noticed music, so I think you're right.

 

In some ways that can be good (walking through a desolate wasteland with no music did seem appropriate), but cues for big events would be nice.

[Slowtrain]

I also hate being told what my character "feels".

 

Fallout 3's major failing: the game is built around your love for your father and doesn't even try to act as if one could feel anything else than unrestricted, completely compassionate love for that character.

 

 

I agree with that. It's like Bethesda said: "What's an easy plot that will appeal to everyone? OMG FATHER QUEST!"

 

umm...no.

[Wombat]

My point is that a designer trying to create the impact of seeing daylight for the first time can set the scene visually better he could for night. All RPGs favor players who can use their imagination. ...But that doesn't really have bearing on which is easier for the design team. I think it's more intuitive for the player to understand his awe at coming out of the vault and seeing daylight for the first time in his life. My imagination tells me that a night sky, an overcast sky, or sunrise or sunset would probably have a much greater effect on a person coming out from a vault for the first time in his life. If it were up to me, I would prefer to have the player come out of the vault at twilight with a huge orange moon hovering over the horizon.

 

You know, it's really hard to tell what will have the greatest impact on someone when he experiences something for the first time.

 

As for my question, I still ask, how can a game hope to convey that idea graphically? This isn't a trap. I detest clever arguments made in order to 'win' a discussion. I'm asking a legitimate question with keen interest in the answer. Clearly you and I can imagine the sheer power of the scene, but what would the designer use to deliver that impact to the player?

In fact, it's far from a new question. Ulysses, for example, being full of "stream of consciousness", is often said to be hard to be made into a film. I also agree that narration is woven into FO rather nicely although FO is basically a sandbox type role-playing game. Occasional narration wouldn't hurt although, like cut-scenes, I guess it can be felt imposing, too, if it it is overdone. That said, in s sandbox type of game, I think "building" the world so that the players can feel it in more direct manner is not a bad design direction. To enhance the experience, "lore" in Shock series and Morrowind (probably overdone with this one since some people don't seem to have read lore) would help without stepping on the foot of the player. At least, we don't need to take effects direct to our senses and literary expressions mutually exclusive. I'd rather like to see they are blended in a natural way to build nice game-play experiences. Like with films and novels, I think there must be an optimized way in presentation with games. After all, these details in actual executions are in the hands of the designers.