Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[Pop]

I'd also like it if they freed up the color palette just a bit. Go from grey to brown, at least. We'll be getting a lot of yellow with the desert and all.

[Slowtrain]

As long as I don't have to play a kid, I'm happy. I know we live in a youth-dominated world, but forcing me to play some sort of teenie-bopper looking for dada did nothing for me.

 

Maybe I'm just a jerk, but the whole looking for my lost dada thing was the ultimate in suckarse plot concepts.

 

Let me play a grizzled aging mercenary or something freaking interesting.

[Aristes]

I think folks should be able to choose, at least somewhat. I liked TNO, but having something exactly like him in a Fallout universe would be tricky.

 

I would hope we'll have more choices this time around.

[Slowtrain]

I think folks should be able to choose, at least somewhat. I liked TNO, but having something exactly like him in a Fallout universe would be tricky.

 

I would hope we'll have more choices this time around.

 

 

I don't mind having some guidelines for a character's backstory. If it helps make a more interesting game that's fine. I just don't really want to be forced to play a teenager. I disliked it Invisible War as well.

 

Nothing against teenagers, you understand. I just don't want to be forced to play one in a game.

 

Also, incredibly lame motivations like looking for daddy should be dispensed with. Especially since I thought daddy was a bit of a tool, and I probably would have not have left the vault to go find him.

 

edit: speeeling

Edited April 29, 2009 by CrashGirl

[Pop]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having a set backstory to a character if that set backstory serves the narrative. Most games do this, the only RPGs I can think of that don't are the Elder Scrolls games, really the only thing PCs have set about them is that they were in prison prior to the beginning of the game, but even then you don't know why and what's more the matter of your imprisonment is a non-issue to just about every NPC in the game. It didn't really matter, your character was a blank slate (though given the blandness of it all I wouldn't call the PC a Mary Sue) and I don't think it's a coincidence that those games are lacking in narrative and characterization. Really the biggest things you can do to make a player feel connected to his/her character are giving him control over the way the PC develops his skills over time (developing personality is a bit harder) and to a lesser extent, giving control over appearance. The minds behind Obsidz have shown a willingness to forgo the latter and it's worked out pretty well for them I think. But F:NV will certainly have at least the level of control that F3 had.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Pop

[TwinkieGorilla]

As long as I don't have to play a kid, I'm happy. I know we live in a youth-dominated world, but forcing me to play some sort of teenie-bopper looking for dada did nothing for me.

 

Maybe I'm just a jerk, but the whole looking for my lost dada thing was the ultimate in suckarse plot concepts.

 

Let me play a grizzled aging mercenary or something freaking interesting.

 

the worst thing (the worst thing? heck. there were so many worst things!) was the idea of an "evil" oriented character out looking for his dad (and no this is not justified as a "grudge-search" since that's just about the most juvenile thing i've ever heard of).

[Slowtrain]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having a set backstory to a character if that set backstory serves the narrative. Most games do this, the only RPGs I can think of that don't are the Elder Scrolls games, and I don't think it's a coincidence that those games are lacking in narrative and characterization.

 

 

For the most part, I totally agree. I would only say that I think it is important to keep the player characters's backstory general enough that a wide variety of gamers can feel some sort of connection to the pc.

 

One of the reasons why I generally support non-sex specific player characters in crpgs. I guess if a developer comes up with an absolutely spectacular story that requires that player character to be a specifc sex then OK. But I ain't never seen that yet.

 

Same with age, race, stuff like that. No reason to be too specific about those things. Let the players create those aspects of their characters to their own desires. I think.

[Slowtrain]

As long as I don't have to play a kid, I'm happy. I know we live in a youth-dominated world, but forcing me to play some sort of teenie-bopper looking for dada did nothing for me.

 

Maybe I'm just a jerk, but the whole looking for my lost dada thing was the ultimate in suckarse plot concepts.

 

Let me play a grizzled aging mercenary or something freaking interesting.

 

the worst thing (the worst thing? heck. there were so many worst things!) was the idea of an "evil" oriented character out looking for his dad (and no this is not justified as a "grudge-search" since that's just about the most juvenile thing i've ever heard of).

 

 

I agree. CRPG developers seem to have a really difficult time with the concept of player character evil. Mostly because most developers seem to envision evil as some sort of cartoonish thug behavior.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I agree. CRPG developers seem to have a really difficult time with the concept of player character evil. Mostly because most developers seem to envision evil as some sort of cartoonish thug behavior.

 

which sucks and is extremely strange to me.

 

it sucks because i'm a good enough guy in real life...y'know? holding doors for lil' ol' ladies an' stuff. but what i'm probably never going to be is a goddamn soulless bounty hunter for Jabba the Hutt. i mean, c'mon. just let me be rewarded and punished for being that guy the same as any other alignment. why do video-games have to instill their own set of morals? that's pretty limiting and insulting to the imaginations of role-players everywhere.

 

and it's extremely strange because...well, let's admit it: how many rpg-nerds think characters like Boba Fett are the bees knees, amirite? i mean...damn. i hereby petition for Lawful Evil to be a viable method of role-playing in FO:NV, dammitall.

Edited April 29, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[Slowtrain]

Generally, I think it's best if plots in crpgs stem mostly from the assumption that the player character wil act in their own best interest. Assigning altruism or evilness directly to the narrative just makes the game feel disconected from the user.

 

At least, that was my experience in FO3. And crpgs in general.

[bhlaab]

Here's the secret formula for a Fallout plot:

 

Need to find macguffin = Must become fish out of water --> While searching for macguffin, uncover dastardly plot that is the "real" story of the game = Fish out of water becomes inadvertant savior to everyone through fate and circumstance

 

There you go, you've got a background to provide a springboard for the plot, but vague enough to be mutable to the player's experience.

 

 

Fallout 3 was on the right track, they just bungled the motivations, didn't really consider anything beyond the broad strokes, and did a terrible job at tidying up the loose ends.

[HoonDing]

I agree. CRPG developers seem to have a really difficult time with the concept of player character evil. Mostly because most developers seem to envision evil as some sort of cartoonish thug behavior.

 

which sucks and is extremely strange to me.

 

it sucks because i'm a good enough guy in real life...y'know? holding doors for lil' ol' ladies an' stuff. but what i'm probably never going to be is a goddamn soulless bounty hunter for Jabba the Hutt. i mean, c'mon. just let me be rewarded and punished for being that guy the same as any other alignment. why do video-games have to instill their own set of morals? that's pretty limiting and insulting to the imaginations of role-players everywhere.

 

and it's extremely strange because...well, let's admit it: how many rpg-nerds think characters like Boba Fett are the bees knees, amirite? i mean...damn. i hereby petition for Lawful Evil to be a viable method of role-playing in FO:NV, dammitall.

Does 'lawful evil' mean instead of taking candy of a baby yourself, manipulating the nanny to take it?

[Slowtrain]

Here's the secret formula for a Fallout plot:

 

Need to find macguffin = Must become fish out of water --> While searching for macguffin, uncover dastardly plot that is the "real" story of the game = Fish out of water becomes inadvertant savior to everyone through fate and circumstance

 

There you go, you've got a background to provide a springboard for the plot, but vague enough to be mutable to the player's experience.

 

 

Fallout 3 was on the right track, they just bungled the motivations, didn't really consider anything beyond the broad strokes, and did a terrible job at tidying up the loose ends.

 

 

I do think it would be nice if crpgs could move beyond the standard chase-the-macguffin plot though. Also move beyond the need for ther player character to be savior of the world. Slightly more humble and less grandiose motivations migth actually be more interesting.

[bhlaab]

Here's the secret formula for a Fallout plot:

 

Need to find macguffin = Must become fish out of water --> While searching for macguffin, uncover dastardly plot that is the "real" story of the game = Fish out of water becomes inadvertant savior to everyone through fate and circumstance

 

There you go, you've got a background to provide a springboard for the plot, but vague enough to be mutable to the player's experience.

 

 

Fallout 3 was on the right track, they just bungled the motivations, didn't really consider anything beyond the broad strokes, and did a terrible job at tidying up the loose ends.

 

 

I do think it would be nice if crpgs could move beyond the standard chase-the-macguffin plot though. Also move beyond the need for ther player character to be savior of the world. Slightly more humble and less grandiose motivations migth actually be more interesting.

 

Yeah, I definitely agree. But Fallout seems to be like Indiana Jones in that part of the charm comes from reveling in that serialized cheesiness.

[Mikhailian]

As long as I don't have to play a kid, I'm happy. I know we live in a youth-dominated world, but forcing me to play some sort of teenie-bopper looking for dada did nothing for me.

 

Maybe I'm just a jerk, but the whole looking for my lost dada thing was the ultimate in suckarse plot concepts.

 

Let me play a grizzled aging mercenary or something freaking interesting.

This. Seriously now, the fresh-faced teen bit annoyed me to no end. I felt it a bit ridiculous that I was forcibly handed the reins of a naive kid who is expected to survive the wastes, all for the "love" of some distant and moderately apathetic father figure who had a bad habit of shoe-horning his favorite bible verse into his narrative.

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the father figure in fo3, and resented a bit being forced to follow him through his formulaic plotline like some loyal but non too intelligent dog. In the end, if I chose to be evil, it didn't feel as such. I felt more like a bad kid who was just acting out to get some attention from my distracted father.

 

I don't know, I know on some level I'm griping too much, but to me too much of the PC was both predetermined, and not very well thought out. The whole thing gets in the way of the player being able to forge ahead and define their charcter through the path taken. In the end, I never felt like I was playing a believably good or evil character, instead I felt like I was just idealistic or insolent.

Meh, I'm rambling.

[Slowtrain]

I loved how you were playing a totally lost waif of pc, but when you went to Moira she called you an experienced survivor of the wastes and all that.

 

I was thinking, wait, I thought I was a total n00b who lived in a vault all my life, why is this woman asking for my help writing a wasteland survival guide and praising me for my awesome survival powahs?

 

lol.

 

 

go go Bethesda! Inconsistency can be an art form!

[mkreku]

Maybe the girl had never been outside her shop? Experience is, after all, relative.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Does 'lawful evil' mean instead of taking candy of a baby yourself, manipulating the nanny to take it?

 

guessing you never went through a PnP phase, eh?

 

Lawful Evil would figure out a way of getting that candy (if that candy meant that you would gain wealth, power, or some other greater gain) even if it meant teaming up with the nanny to obtain the candy, because...you never know, they may become useful to you later on.

 

Neutral Evil would use the nanny to get the candy (most likely by promising the nanny a cut), then kill the nanny and keep the candy.

 

Chaotic Evil would just kill the baby and take the candy.

 

 

or something like that.

Edited April 29, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[Mikhailian]

I kinda thought the chaotic evil approach would be more like: take the candy from the baby, use it to creatively murder the nanny, then give it back to baby for the lulz.

[Kjarista]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having a set backstory to a character if that set backstory serves the narrative. Most games do this, the only RPGs I can think of that don't are the Elder Scrolls games, really the only thing PCs have set about them is that they were in prison prior to the beginning of the game, but even then you don't know why and what's more the matter of your imprisonment is a non-issue to just about every NPC in the game. It didn't really matter, your character was a blank slate (though given the blandness of it all I wouldn't call the PC a Mary Sue) and I don't think it's a coincidence that those games are lacking in narrative and characterization. Really the biggest things you can do to make a player feel connected to his/her character are giving him control over the way the PC develops his skills over time (developing personality is a bit harder) and to a lesser extent, giving control over appearance. The minds behind Obsidz have shown a willingness to forgo the latter and it's worked out pretty well for them I think. But F:NV will certainly have at least the level of control that F3 had.

 

See, I like the exact opposite. if the game doesn't tell me who I am supposed to be, then I can decide who I want to be, and how I got to be where I am. Starting in prison with no set background offers creative freedom, which is important in the type of roleplay I engage in. I don't want to be told who I am, what I'm supposed to look like, and what I'm supposed to be doing.

 

If Fallout 3 fails in this regard, it's because it was TOO restrictive in who the PC is to be. It is possible, however, to play FO3 and never touch the main quest. IMO, the game is much better played that way.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I kinda thought the chaotic evil approach would be more like: take the candy from the baby, use it to creatively murder the nanny, then give it back to baby for the lulz.

 

lulz indeed!

 

 

ok, you win.

[Slowtrain]

It is possible, however, to play FO3 and never touch the main quest. IMO, the game is much better played that way.

 

 

WHich is good, because every time the main quest reared its ugly head in dialogue, I felt totally disconnected from the game.

 

Anyway, I think a nice balance is best. Give the pc some backstory so they have a STORY, but keep their backstory somewhat non-specific so that each player can create enough of the pc so that the player feels a connection.

 

Again, I think its best to give the pc a main narrative that asks the player character to act in their own best interest, but leaves the HOW of how they pursue that best interest up to the player.

 

FO3 forced the desire to find my father on my pc, but failed to show me how it was in my best interest to do so.

 

 

Bethesda: You want to find to your father.

 

Me: Why? (obvious question)

 

Bethesda: Doesn't everybody want to find their father?

 

Me: No.

 

 

Narrative fails.

[Kjarista]

Oh, I took the main quest as not more than a way to get the player into the world. The first time I played I hit level cap long before I finished the main quest, which to my mind, is a greater problem. Using a pacing mod helped in that regard.

[Slowtrain]

Oh, I took the main quest as not more than a way to get the player into the world.

 

Of course, but they could have come with something a little better than: PC, Find your father!

 

The narrative is so weak that it seems like they didn't even care enough to bother. That's OK in a shooter or something, where your "character" is just a walkign weapon platform, but I think a crpg needs a bit more.

 

The first time I played I hit level cap long before I finished the main quest, which to my mind, is a greater problem. Using a pacing mod helped in that regard.

 

It took me about three levels to realize I needed a mod to slow leveling down. So I got one

 

I agree. Its a HUGE problem. Thank goodness for the mod community.

[Kjarista]

Oh, I took the main quest as not more than a way to get the player into the world.

 

Of course, but they could have come with something a little better than: PC, Find your father!

 

The narrative is so weak that it seems like they didn't even care enough to bother. That's OK in a shooter or something, where your "character" is just a walkign weapon platform, but I think a crpg needs a bit more.

 

But that's the point. It's a design that benefits sandbox roleplayers at the expense of folks who like more story, just as more story-centric RPGs, don't do much for sandbox RPers like me. The art in the design (ideally, that is) would be to come up with something that attracts both types of players. Fallout 3 would have been a much better game if the main quest was stronger, but it would have been a much worse game without the freeform aspects of it.