DRM Thread

[RPGmasterBoo]

Eventually DRM schemes wil be developed that do work and doesn't cause problems for paying gamers. It's just a developmental process. Developmental processes rarely run completely smoothly.

 

Then it will cease to be important, but we're talking about now - now they are a hassle and they are having a detrimental effect on actual sales with corporate people shifting the blame for their own greed onto pirates who as is an obvious fact - have coexisted with the gaming industry for decades.

[Mamoulian War]

EDIT: What, why would I expect revenue from pirates? Have you totally lost it? I was pointing out Mamoulian War's hypocrisy.

 

Yeah, i am big hypocrite and that's the reasn why around 100 Original Games for different platforms are sorted in 5 of my shelves...

 

And yes EA deserves to get pirated to hell for their DRM retardness...

[Purkake]

@CrashGirl: As long as the PC remains an open platform, it's unlikely.

 

 

I disagree. There are different ways to protect information from being used against the owners wishes. Eventually methods will be put in place that work. It's inevitable.

 

The whole DRM argument is silly anyway. Its the game owner's right to do what they want with the game. If they want to take the source code, roll it up in a sealed ferroconcrete container and sink it five miles deep in the ocean, that's their right. It's their game. Nobody else's opinions on the issue are even relevant.

 

But which comes first, the impenetrable DRM or it becoming so intrusive that even the casual users become pissed?

 

That's what I'm saying. If you don't want to support DRM-using games, don't buy/play them.

[Mamoulian War]

@CrashGirl: As long as the PC remains an open platform, it's unlikely.

 

 

I disagree. There are different ways to protect information from being used against the owners wishes. Eventually methods will be put in place that work. It's inevitable.

 

The whole DRM argument is silly anyway. Its the game owner's right to do what they want with the game. If they want to take the source code, roll it up in a sealed ferroconcrete container and sink it five miles deep in the ocean, that's their right. It's their game. Nobody else's opinions on the issue are even relevant.

 

Sorry, but I as a customer should have some say, like i do have some saying for example for not working airbags... i should be able to get my money back for broken products!!!

[Purkake]

EDIT: What, why would I expect revenue from pirates? Have you totally lost it? I was pointing out Mamoulian War's hypocrisy.

 

Yeah, i am big hypocrite and that's the reasn why around 100 Original Games for different platforms are sorted in 5 of my shelves...

 

And yes EA deserves to get pirated to hell for their DRM retardness...

 

You are a hypocrite because you support pirating EA's stuff, but not "honest" developer's stuff.

 

You can't pick and choose, it's all or nothing. Having strong emotions against the company is irrelevant from the moral point of view.

 

Sorry, but I as a customer should have some say, like i do have some saying for example for not working airbags... i should be able to get my money back for broken products!!!

 

And I say it the third time, you can vote with your wallet. Is the concept somehow hard to grasp? There are no warranties for software, whether or not the shop takes it back is up to them.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Purkake

[Slowtrain]

That's what I'm saying. If you don't want to support DRM-using games, don't buy/play them.

 

 

Yeah, I completely agree.

 

I'm just saying that all the rationalizations and counter arguments are irrelevant. The game belonsg to the people who own it. they cna do what they want. If it really bugs someone, they can speak with their wallet and go without. Nobody needs a game to survive.

[RPGmasterBoo]

It's a completely unsubstantiated argument unfortunately. You can't definitively state that piracy is or is not responsible. As for 90% of pirates wouldn't buy the game anyways, well, 95% of all statistics are just made up.

 

Pirates continue to get their free ride, leeching off those that actually support the developers and help finance the games the pirates like to play.

 

It appeals to your common sense in the first place.

If that isnt enough then get this: games have come from garage based projects to multi million dollar affairs in just two decades with the pirates there from day one. Its obvious their impact is vastly exaggerated, therefore all the moaning over piracy serves nothing but to support a corporate policy. A senseless corporate policy at that, whose only trait is that it damages legitimate users.

[Purkake]

That's what I'm saying. If you don't want to support DRM-using games, don't buy/play them.

 

 

Yeah, I completely agree.

 

I'm just saying that all the rationalizations and counter arguments are irrelevant. The game belonsg to the people who own it. they cna do what they want. If it really bugs someone, they can speak with their wallet and go without. Nobody needs a game to survive.

 

I guess it's the entitlement thing again.

 

You(the general you) are not entitled to the game, the company makes whatever they want and if it sells they will probably make more of it.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Purkake

[alanschu]

Having said that, there most definitely are instances where piracy does lead to very bad results. Titan Quest developers had to deal with the backlash of people accusing them of releasing a broken game, when some of the big issues surrounding the game at release only happened to people that had pirated copies of the game. Unfortunately, the news of a buggy broken game had already proliferated throughout the internet, and you'd have to be naive to think that people don't check the internet for game reviews and impressions. Potential sales lost because people were reporting bad information. Too bad Iron Lore is out of business now, and all those that enjoy the types of games that Iron Lore would make are now **** out of luck. Who wins because of the piracy in this case?

 

Actually it was some hidden drm that caused the game to crash after a while. The pirates didn't release a broken game. It was pretty Iron Lore's own lack of foresight.

 

 

I have not heard anything of that sort. Given I can verify that my roommate could not play the pirated version on his computer due to issues mentioned specifically by Michael Fitch, yet when he removed it, and tried installing my legitimate copy of the game, it worked.

 

Was the hidden DRM actually the problem, or was circumventing it the real problem? It'd hardly be the first time.

[Purkake]

I have not heard anything of that sort. Given I can verify that my roommate could not play the pirated version on his computer due to issues mentioned specifically by Michael Fitch, yet when he removed it, and tried installing my legitimate copy of the game, it worked.

 

Was the hidden DRM actually the problem, or was circumventing it the real problem? It'd hardly be the first time.

 

Here's the quote from a blog quoting Michael Fitch, Director of Creative Management at THQ:

 

One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Purkake

[alanschu]

It's a completely unsubstantiated argument unfortunately. You can't definitively state that piracy is or is not responsible. As for 90% of pirates wouldn't buy the game anyways, well, 95% of all statistics are just made up.

 

Pirates continue to get their free ride, leeching off those that actually support the developers and help finance the games the pirates like to play.

 

It appeals to your common sense in the first place.

If that isnt enough then get this: games have come from garage based projects to multi million dollar affairs in just two decades with the pirates there from day one. Its obvious their impact is vastly exaggerated, therefore all the moaning over piracy serves nothing but to support a corporate policy. A senseless corporate policy at that, whose only trait is that it damages legitimate users.

 

 

Games have become multi-million dollar affairs. All while the price of games (which people complain so much about) has remained relatively static. Economies of scale have become so much more important to the software development industry, and with all the money comes much more risk.

 

There's also heavy duty concerns about sequelitis and a lack of innovation in the industry. By Electronic Arts own sales metrics (provided at a talk given at my University by John Buchanan, then EA's University Liason), PC game sales are relatively static and constant over a decade's worth of time. The bulk of the growth in the video game sales has come from the console side (where games are actually even more expensive). At least for Electronic Arts.

 

 

As for commonsense, it's been proven wrong way too many times in history for me to simply rely on that.

[alanschu]

I have not heard anything of that sort. Given I can verify that my roommate could not play the pirated version on his computer due to issues mentioned specifically by Michael Fitch, yet when he removed it, and tried installing my legitimate copy of the game, it worked.

 

Was the hidden DRM actually the problem, or was circumventing it the real problem? It'd hardly be the first time.

 

Here's the quote from a blog quoting Michael Fitch, Director of Creative Management at THQ:

 

One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.

 

I know, I read the article.

 

So when pirated copies fail their DRM check because the DRM has been circumvented, that's the DRM's fault?

 

 

 

EDIT: Regarding entitlement, that's clearly it. When people mention they pirate games because they find the cost prohibitive, then it's clearly a sense of entitlement.

Edited August 18, 2009 by alanschu

[Purkake]

I know, I read the article.

 

So when pirated copies fail their DRM check because the DRM has been circumvented, that's the DRM's fault?

 

 

 

EDIT: Regarding entitlement, that's clearly it. When people mention they pirate games because they find the cost prohibitive, then it's clearly a sense of entitlement.

 

It was their fault for not making the DRM obvious. Just dumping people out of the game with no indication that it was because of DRM is like inviting a PR disaster. They should have had a box pop up and say that you have a pirated version and that's why the game is shutting down.

[Mamoulian War]

You are a hypocrite because you support pirating EA's stuff, but not "honest" developer's stuff.

 

What's hypocritic on thinking that bad care for customers should be punished by any means, while good care for customers should be rewarded

 

It was their fault for not making the DRM obvious. Just dumping people out of the game with no indication that it was because of DRM is like inviting a PR disaster. They should have had a box pop up and say that you have a pirated version and that's why the game is shutting down.

 

And completely agree with this one...

Edited August 18, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[alanschu]

....

 

You have GOT to be kidding me. What would the pop up say, "Sorry Mr. Pirate, you didn't quite get it right, you should go back and keep trying!"

 

 

Inviting a PR disaster because they didn't give proper support for people pirating their game!?

 

Furthermore, even if they did have said popups, there'd be no guarantee that the cracking of the game would preserve it, or a host of other issues that they may not have anticipated.

[Purkake]

You are a hypocrite because you support pirating EA's stuff, but not "honest" developer's stuff.

 

What's hypocritic on thinking that bad care for customers should be punished by any means, while good care for customers should be rewarded

 

It's hypocritical to support something when it serves your purposes and then not support it when it doesn't.

 

If you are against piracy, except for that one case(EA) you are a hypocrite. Either accept that or change your mindset, you can't have both.

[Mamoulian War]

....

 

You have GOT to be kidding me. What would the pop up say, "Sorry Mr. Pirate, you didn't quite get it right, you should go back and keep trying!"

 

 

Inviting a PR disaster because they didn't give proper support for people pirating their game!?

 

Furthermore, even if they did have said popups, there'd be no guarantee that the cracking of the game would preserve it, or a host of other issues that they may not have anticipated.

 

you know but some people in other companies thinks quite opposite...

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20011017/dodd_01.htm

[RPGmasterBoo]

Games have become multi-million dollar affairs. All while the price of games (which people complain so much about) has remained relatively static. Economies of scale have become so much more important to the software development industry, and with all the money comes much more risk.

 

There's also heavy duty concerns about sequelitis and a lack of innovation in the industry. By Electronic Arts own sales metrics (provided at a talk given at my University by John Buchanan, then EA's University Liason), PC game sales are relatively static and constant over a decade's worth of time. The bulk of the growth in the video game sales has come from the console side (where games are actually even more expensive). At least for Electronic Arts.

 

 

As for commonsense, it's been proven wrong way too many times in history for me to simply rely on that.

 

You've said it youself.

Sequelitis and lack of innovation are what's really choking the game industry, not pirates. Games get worse every year, and ultimately the blame, again, rests on developers/publishers who would rather make FIFA 2026 than take a risk and innovate. Pirates won't be the ones bringing anything down in any substantial way. The greed for quick and easy money will though.

 

Grand Theft Auto series are a prime example. The first two games were more or less rubbish, but they we're innovative and the gameplay was improvable. The Rockstar people pushed onwards and made GTA III, which made them successful and proved that persistence pays off. They dared to innovate and grew rich as a result. The same goes for Blizzard, or Bioware with BG and there are tons of other examples. Squaresoft's Final Fantasy was named so, because it was the companys last bid for success before bankrupcy.

 

The lesson is, if you dare to innovate you have a chance at succeeding. If you repeat the same thing endlessly (a defining trait of EA) you deserve to fail, and the pirates wont be the ones to put the nail in your coffin. Your stupidity will.

 

DRM, piracy bla bla - its all just running away from the real issue: if you want people to buy games, make good ones. With good games the chances that you'll go bankrupt are slim. With bad ones its inevitable.

Edited August 18, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

....

 

You have GOT to be kidding me. What would the pop up say, "Sorry Mr. Pirate, you didn't quite get it right, you should go back and keep trying!"

 

 

Inviting a PR disaster because they didn't give proper support for people pirating their game!?

 

Furthermore, even if they did have said popups, there'd be no guarantee that the cracking of the game would preserve it, or a host of other issues that they may not have anticipated.

 

If it had said that, people would have understood that it was because of their pirated copy and not gone to the official forum to bitch about it en masse. Instead they would have waited for it to get cracked as well.

 

Grand Theft Auto series are a prime example. The first two games were more or less rubbish,

 

You take that back! The first two GTAs were awesome, and are freeware now, BTW.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Purkake

[RPGmasterBoo]

You take that back! The first two GTAs were awesome, and are freeware now, BTW.

 

I never said they didn't entertain the sociopath in me, just they were in no way as fine or as successful as the latter ones

[Purkake]

You take that back! The first two GTAs were awesome, and are freeware now, BTW.

 

I never said they didn't entertain the sociopath in me, just they were in no way as fine or as successful as the latter ones

 

And Oblivion sold a ton more than Morrowing and looked better. What's your point?

[alanschu]

....

 

You have GOT to be kidding me. What would the pop up say, "Sorry Mr. Pirate, you didn't quite get it right, you should go back and keep trying!"

 

 

Inviting a PR disaster because they didn't give proper support for people pirating their game!?

 

Furthermore, even if they did have said popups, there'd be no guarantee that the cracking of the game would preserve it, or a host of other issues that they may not have anticipated.

 

If it had said that, people would have understood that it was because of their pirated copy and not gone to the official forum to bitch about it en masse. Instead they would have waited for it to get cracked as well.

 

 

I call complete and utter bull****. Blaming this on THQ is a classic case of blaming the victim.

 

Given the unpredictable nature of cracking, and the possible side effects associated with it, it'd be impossible to make a system robust enough to satisfy this demand.

 

 

 

Mamoulian War, I'm well aware of instances where stuff like that happens. Ironically, people like you still seem to get pissed off about it, except in this case. That's strange. I mean, how do you know that that person isn't a legit owner of Spyro that just got screwed over!?

 

My favourite one was Earthbound's that restarted the game and deleted all of your saved games just close to the end of the game. Ultima VII's nonsense blathering fools was also hilarious (actually it was rife with all sorts of copy protection schemes that used the map or game manual), as people would walk around saying "Oink" and other random ****.

 

I have a feeling though that you really aren't THAT supportive of developers booby trapping their game, are you?

 

 

However, I'm not going to blame the developer for not spending time on putting in game easter eggs that account for software piracy. It's too unpredictable.

Edited August 18, 2009 by alanschu

[RPGmasterBoo]

You take that back! The first two GTAs were awesome, and are freeware now, BTW.

 

I never said they didn't entertain the sociopath in me, just they were in no way as fine or as successful as the latter ones

 

And Oblivion sold a ton more than Morrowing and looked better. What's your point?

 

Oblivion is a case of good advertising, GTA III of great design - vastly superior to the original GTA1/2 formula. Their success stories can't really be compared at all.

In fact Oblivion proves that you can sometimes get away with no innovation at all if you know how to repackage and reuse ideas to look appealing.

[Purkake]

I call complete and utter bull****. Blaming this on THQ is a classic case of blaming the victim.

 

Given the unpredictable nature of cracking, and the possible side effects associated with it, it'd be impossible to make a system robust enough to satisfy this demand.

 

I'm not saying that the pirates aren't to blame. The pirates are like a force of nature, you can't control them, they do whatever they want. What you can control, however, is your DRM scheme. I'm not saying that Iron Lore should have foreseen it, I'm saying that they could have prevented it.

 

When a tornado kills your cows, is it the tornado's fault? It's your fault for leaving them out.

 

Oblivion is a case of good advertising, GTA III of great design - vastly superior to the original GTA1/2 formula. Their success stories can't really be compared at all.

In fact Oblivion proves that you can sometimes get away with no innovation at all if you know how to repackage and reuse ideas to look appealing.

 

GTA I,II are totally different games from GTA III+, you don't compare Final Fantasy I with Final Fantasy XII. GTA I was a good game for it's time, as was GTA III.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Purkake

[Hurlshort]

No, the tornado is at fault.

 

 

I'l throw out that there is no justification for piracy ever. You are stealing something that people put their blood, sweat, and tears into, and you are a bad person because of it. That is not an opinion, that is reality.