Deus Ex 3

[Slowtrain]

I finished it.

[alanschu]

I don't know why people hate it so much (setting penguins on fire with a guided rocket anyone?)

 

 

Hate is too strong a word. Its major downfall for me was that it stripped away all the fun aspects of Deus Ex and failed to replace them with anything.

 

Harvey Smith said the game was going to have CHOICES THAT MATTERED.

 

It didn't.

All the fun aspects? The core of multiple approaches was still there, as you said. Plus the cool weapons and abilities, and you can still build your character for the approach you want. How many modern games can we say that about? As far as overhyping the game and winding up hurting it, yeah, I guess we've never seen that before

 

 

Who are you to say what she does and does not consider the fun aspects of the game anyways?

[Hell Kitty]

In the end the rescinded that because they didn't want people to get stuck down a path or something, right?

 

Yeah, it's the same reason the original DX doesn't have choices that seriously alter the storyline until the very end of the game.

 

I think if you can get IW cheap you ought to try it out, and then report back to us. *cracks whip*

[alanschu]

Oh my! Let me see if I can squeeze in an open weekend or something first! Stupid school.

[Moatilliatta]

His numberless world was no more immersive than Spector's numbered one and there was no more choice and consquence in IW than in DX 1. And in the process he chose to drop some of the things that made DX interesting.

Haven't we been through this ordeal before? Harvery Smith worked on both worlds last time I looked and so did Spector. Stop pretending one game dev failed and the other did not.

 

This might not be what you're insinuating and if so excuse me but too many people does this and I have little idea why.

 

Edit for clarification.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Moatilliatta

[Hassat Hunter]

Anyway the detachment is when your aiming is affected by your skills, since this tend to lead to scenarios of "I shot him right in the noggin why didn't he fall dead?". I didn't feel like that either but since I know people who felt like that and know about people who felt like that I tend to chalk my own not feeling it up to me being primarily an RPG player and not expecting my aim to be that of my character.

DX is one of the games who did great in that regard though. It lowered the crosshear and when it was completely small it hit where you aimed (unlike, say, Vampire:Bloodlines). If you still didn't shoot in the head then, you only have your own pathetic skills to blame . And ofcourse DX allowed people who suck in aiming to install laser sightings. Then you really cannot say it didn't hit what you aimed for anymore, since where the dot pointed, the bullet hit. Hell, my first playthrough DX all the weapons I used where a modded pistol (read: Sniperrifle. Awesome gun when modded) and the GEP-gun for droids and some doors. Weapons I already got at the dock at the begin of the game. Can't say that for alot of games.

 

Overrated? More like non-existant. There was no actual choices there we're only different endings and a pat on the shoulder if the NPCs liked your methods.

I guess that is the liked part. NPC's actually talk to you about your deeds, even if it was levels ago. Walton talking about the NSF-soldiers in OceanBase anyone? Unlike DX:IW, where no-one ever flashed back to your actions after a level was done. I really don't know alot of games who do that (KOTOR2 could have if it wasn't so butchered), and it was quite an addition.

Sure; your choices didn't made much effect on the mainplot, but atleast the people involved actually responded to what you did.

 

The choices that matter in Deus Ex are around your methodology in solving and achieving your objectives, but nothing you can do ever changes those objectives or the outcome of achieving them.

Yeah. It was quite a letdown when I told Paul to stuff his NSF-crap away and I wanted to stick to UNATCO and the game just basically died (cause there was nothing to support my choice), forcing me to take the alternative path.

 

No I was just responding to posters commenting on how wonderful it is to only have one med pack left. The more likely outcome is that you hoard them. Anyway I think the whole cyborg, android, biomod idea lends itself rather well to passive healing.

If you only have one healthpack left you're an idiot who should have realised that what your methods taken to tackle the mission are extremely bad. I never had a lack of healing potions and augmentation batteries (or whatever they were called again) in DX. DX (and therefore I hope DX3) was a game that punished face-to-face gunfights, which was good about it. DX:IW didn't... and it sucked. From the sounds of regeneration DX3 also wants to make gunfights something that ISN'T beneficial to avoid, and thus, a detachment from DX. Although I wouldn't mind if Regen became a Augmentation or something (like DX healing was, but somewhat slower).

[alanschu]

The original Deus Ex didn't really punish you for face-to-face gunfights.

 

Often they were unavoidable. Especially since the badguys tended to home in on where you were once combat had started, unless you could find a vent or something to hide in (or you just ran away from them long enough that they couldn't catch up to you).

 

That said, you could build your character in such a way that it was horrible at face-to-face gunfights. I am guessing you still can in DX3 as well. But give yourself active defense, some good weapon skills, and ballistic shielding (or whatever it was called) and gun fights were pretty LOL. I loved it when the MJ12 Commandos would blow themselves up the instant they shot their rockets and my active defense would blow them up the instant they were fired.

[Slowtrain]

His numberless world was no more immersive than Spector's numbered one and there was no more choice and consquence in IW than in DX 1. And in the process he chose to drop some of the things that made DX interesting.

Haven't we been through this ordeal before? Harvery Smith worked on both worlds last time I looked and so did Spector. Stop pretending one game dev failed and the other did not.

 

This might not be what you're insinuating and if so excuse me but too many people does this and I have little idea why.

 

Edit for clarification.

 

Deus Ex was Spector's game; IW was Smith's game. Whether one failed or both failed or not is more subjective than anything else. In the end they both delivered a more or less completed game, so in that regard neither failed.

[Hassat Hunter]

That said, you could build your character in such a way that it was horrible at face-to-face gunfights. I am guessing you still can in DX3 as well. But give yourself active defense, some good weapon skills, and ballistic shielding (or whatever it was called) and gun fights were pretty LOL. I loved it when the MJ12 Commandos would blow themselves up the instant they shot their rockets and my active defense would blow them up the instant they were fired.

True. But before you did all of that you would be advanced pretty far into the game already, and probably had to pay for it on other sides (lockpicking, hacking etc.).

In DX2 it didn't matter what you did, you were always a Rambo that excelled. Often the best way to kill Templars was like you said, having them kill themselves with their own rockets, because foes got extreme hitpoints to make up for the characters strenght.

From the sound of it DX3 also uses player-input without skill adjustment for combat, thus there is pretty much no way to be "horrible" at face-to-face gunfights. The augments only make you even better, not make up for it. No hiding out on Liberty Island in the shadows for the crosshair to be small, then plant a headshot, just immediately plant that headshot, from a distance far larger than the AI can react upon.

Then again; we haven't heard much, but that's what I get from the little bits released so far...

[Moatilliatta]

Deus Ex was Spector's game; IW was Smith's game. Whether one failed or both failed or not is more subjective than anything else. In the end they both delivered a more or less completed game, so in that regard neither failed.

I'm pretty sure that both worked on both games and had roles that were of equal importance in both games.

[Slowtrain]

Deus Ex was Spector's game; IW was Smith's game. Whether one failed or both failed or not is more subjective than anything else. In the end they both delivered a more or less completed game, so in that regard neither failed.

I'm pretty sure that both worked on both games and had roles that were of equal importance in both games.

 

 

No. Smith did work for Spector during Deus Ex, but it was Spector's vision all the way.

 

 

As I recall from various interviews in the past, Spector has sworn up down and sideways he had no input at all on the design of IW. He has also hinted that he disagreed with some of the choices Smith made, but since it was SMith's game, those choice were Smith's to make.

[mkreku]

Deus Ex was Spector's game; IW was Smith's game. Whether one failed or both failed or not is more subjective than anything else. In the end they both delivered a more or less completed game, so in that regard neither failed.

I'm pretty sure that both worked on both games and had roles that were of equal importance in both games.

 

 

No. Smith did work for Spector during Deus Ex, but it was Spector's vision all the way.

 

 

As I recall from various interviews in the past, Spector has sworn up down and sideways he had no input at all on the design of IW. He has also hinted that he disagreed with some of the choices Smith made, but since it was SMith's game, those choice were Smith's to make.

I've read the same interviews so I can vouch for this. Spector was in charge of the first game while Smith was in charge of the second.

 

Deus Ex:

Producer and Project Director Warren Spector

Lead Designer Harvey Smith

 

Deus Ex: Invisible War:

Studio Director Warren Spector

Project Director Harvey Smith

[Hell Kitty]

Yeah, Smith was Lead Designer to Spectors Project Director for DX, and then Smith was the Project Director for DX:IW, so I dunno what Moatilliatta is on about.

[alanschu]

Deus Ex was Spector's game; IW was Smith's game. Whether one failed or both failed or not is more subjective than anything else. In the end they both delivered a more or less completed game, so in that regard neither failed.

I'm pretty sure that both worked on both games and had roles that were of equal importance in both games.

 

 

I will also vouch for interviews where Spector said he was taking a hands off approach to IW.

[Morgoth]

I doubt anyone, even Spector, could have made a great game with the crippled IW engine.

[Hell Kitty]

My last post is useless now that mkrekus has appeared.

[Slowtrain]

Spector was very supportive of Smith during some of the more difficult times of IW's development, when upset Deus Ex fans would ask Spector to get more involved in the because of the design choices SMith was making, such as dropping the skill system. But Spector always maintained the position, very politely, that it was Harvey SMith's game and Harvey Smith's choices to make and that SMith had Spector's full support in whatever he choose to do.

 

I was actually kind of suprised a couple years later to read an interview with Spector in which he seemed to be subtly distancing himself from the design choices of IW. Maybe I read too much between the lines of what he was saying, but I remember how shocked I was to see him holding any other position than: It is Harvey's game and Harvey has my full support.

 

But Spector has always been quite honest in his interviews, much like Josh in fact. I remember a great interview in which he talked about all the terrible mistakes he had made and all things he had done wrong in the development of Deus Ex. This was well after the game was released of course (way way after), but it was still a fascinating read.

 

I remember him acknowledging the how terrible the AI was in Deus Ex and explaining the reason for that was that they waited until the very last minute to put in the AI and try to get it working. They didn't consider it that important. WHich he admitted was a terrible blunder on his part. I have a lot of respect for those sorts of admissions.

[jaguars4ever]

Quiet you.

 

Dragon's Tooth > all.

[Moatilliatta]

Guess I'll need to try and dig up the videos where Spector made me believe that he had a lot of influence on IW. Perhaps that was me reading too much into it.