The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[Moatilliatta]

KOTOR had kill monster quests too, it might not have said so directly (can't remember to be honest) but you usually had to do it to complete some crappy fetch quest.

 

The Bastila quest as far as I remember is just wandering over to her crashed pod and then later finding out that she is being offered to the winner of the race and then actually "win" her. Did I miss something? How is that quest even remotely better? Besides being longer.

 

To find Bastila, you had to find the crashed pod, go through the sewers, hook up with Mission and Zaalbar, get involved with the two gangs, side with one, fight the Rancor, go through the gang compound, steal the prototype engine, win the race, win the fight at the end, and be subjected to Bastila's snooty dialog, in addition to a bunch of other stuff I don't remember at the moment. If that kind of gameplay is equivalent for you to a 2 second dog killing spree, then we exist in two different universes and there's not point in discussing anything.

I never said it was equivalent I just said taht it was an essentially uninteresting quest:

 

To find Bastila, you had to find the crashed pod

Oh my, walking sure is fun. And you even get to kill monsters while walking!

 

go through the sewers,

See above.

 

hook up with Mission and Zaalbar

Hooking up with people is incredibly boring as party members only pay off later. Also see Pidesco's main quest comment.

get involved with the two gangs

Which has no real effect on anything except who you get to kill.

 

side with one, fight the Rancor, go through the gang compound, steal the prototype engine, win the race, win the fight at the end, and be subjected to Bastila's snooty dialog

Fight, mindless sneaking, fight, you don't so much steal as get treated to a cutscene as I remember, racing which was incredibly hard to loose. Snoore! Bastila wasn't exactly a stellar companion.

 

All of this except the racing part is a part of the find Liara mission.

 

Have I won yet?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Find Liara mission is you go on this very barren and uninteresting planet and fight through a bunch of Geth. OK, you don't like KOTOR, I get it. A cinematic shooter like ME is much more appealing to you. ME as an RPG still sucks though.

[Pidesco]

I haven't played ME. I don't know if it sucks or not.

 

What I do know is that KOTOR is not a masterpiece of anything. It's a repeat of BG2 with most of its good features gutted or taken away.

[Moatilliatta]

@WoD

Did you even read what I wrote? Break down any Bioware quest and it will show itself for how boring it is. Also I didn't like ME much so stop pretending to be superiour because you "know" that graphics "make games worse" or something like that.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Yes, genius will do that to you.

 

I hope you are being sarcastic...

[Wrath of Dagon]

I haven't played ME. I don't know if it sucks or not.

 

What I do know is that KOTOR is not a masterpiece of anything. It's a repeat of BG2 with most of its good features gutted or taken away.

I haven't played BG, so I can't compare, but KOTOR is a great game. I don't have a list of requirements for a game, it's either a quality game or it's not.

[Wrath of Dagon]

@WoD

Did you even read what I wrote? Break down any Bioware quest and it will show itself for how boring it is. Also I didn't like ME much so stop pretending to be superiour because you "know" that graphics "make games worse" or something like that.

May be it was boring to you, but it was the best gameplay ever to me. If you didn't like ME, then what's your point? That you hate all Bioware games? Fine. I gave the quote as the proof that in pursuing graphics whores, Bioware was not able to create any good content. Having a giant empty area you try to fill up with little dialogs at the very end of development because that's all resources will allow you to do is not the proper way to design a compelling game IMO.

[Pidesco]

What makes you think that Bioware's goals in making KOTOR weren't the exact same in making Mass Effect?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Because I played both, and that's the judgment I made. While I was playing KOTOR, I couldn't believe how fun and addictive it was. While I was playing ME, I couldn't believe Bioware would make something that amateurish and mediocre, sometimes downright atrocious.

[Moatilliatta]

May be it was boring to you, but it was the best gameplay ever to me.

I don't care how low your personal standards are, you called KOTOR a masterpiece now either defend that statement or realize that you were wrong.

If you didn't like ME, then what's your point?

See above.

That you hate all Bioware games? Fine. I gave the quote as the proof that in pursuing graphics whores, Bioware was not able to create any good content. Having a giant empty area you try to fill up with little dialogs at the very end of development because that's all resources will allow you to do is not the proper way to design a compelling game IMO.

I don't hate any Bio games as they all succeed on being average and just interesting enough for me to buy them.

Also I have already adressed that quote. All games have technical limitations that they deal with even KOTOR, there is nothing new here.

 

I also find it hillarious that a random boardmember believe they know better than Bioware, who has been in the buisness for a decade, how to design RPGs.

[Pidesco]

Because I played both, and that's the judgment I made. While I was playing KOTOR, I couldn't believe how fun and addictive it was. While I was playing ME, I couldn't believe Bioware would make something that amateurish and mediocre, sometimes downright atrocious.

 

How about elaborating on why you found KOTOR fun and addictive? What made KOTOR a better experience than all other RPGs you ever played?

[Wrath of Dagon]

@Moatilliata:

I gave you my example. If you disagree with it, that's not my problem, but simply indicates your lack of understanding of what makes a good game. All you counterarguments to why the Bastila quest was good were irrelevant btw.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Moatilliatta]

@Moatilliata:

I gave you my example. If you disagree with it, that's not my problem, but simply indicates your lack of understanding of what makes a good game. All you counterarguments to why the Bastila quest was good were irrelevant btw.

Let me guess, you were the chairman of your schools debate club?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Because I played both, and that's the judgment I made. While I was playing KOTOR, I couldn't believe how fun and addictive it was. While I was playing ME, I couldn't believe Bioware would make something that amateurish and mediocre, sometimes downright atrocious.

 

How about elaborating on why you found KOTOR fun and addictive? What made KOTOR a better experience than all other RPGs you ever played?

Mostly I loved the quest design. Not only did they fit into the story, you learned an awful lot about KOTOR universe from doing them. Also characters, dialog and writing in general.

[Wrath of Dagon]

@Moatilliata:

I gave you my example. If you disagree with it, that's not my problem, but simply indicates your lack of understanding of what makes a good game. All you counterarguments to why the Bastila quest was good were irrelevant btw.

Let me guess, you were the chairman of your schools debate club?

Debate to you means poo-poing someone else's points while making none of your own.

[Moatilliatta]

@Moatilliata:

I gave you my example. If you disagree with it, that's not my problem, but simply indicates your lack of understanding of what makes a good game. All you counterarguments to why the Bastila quest was good were irrelevant btw.

Let me guess, you were the chairman of your schools debate club?

Debate to you means poo-poing someone else's points while making none of your own.

Please tell me where I poo-pooed on your point while making none of my own?

[Pidesco]

You could try being more generic in your appreciation of the game.

 

 

Also, I'd like to point out that KOTOR was most definitely developed for the "graphics whores." It's the only reason I can see for it to use a 3D engine, considering its gameplay is actually 2D. Furthermore, the use of a 2D engine would have cut down on costs, and hardware requirements, thus allowing for richer, larger environments, with more actors and more development time spent on writing and side quests.

 

Not that I'm criticizing Bioware for choosing to use a 3D engine. Marketing and selling a 2D game to the Xbox crowd would have been tough, to say the least, not to mention that Bioware would have to convince Lucasarts(and Microsoft?) that a 2D game was worth their investment of time and money.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Fine, you can call anyone who wants to play 3D games graphics whores, but they succeeded with KOTOR and failed with ME, which is what matters. I'm not saying graphics aren't important, it's when they're prioritized over everything else there's a problem, and the quote I gave is proof of that.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

I'm not gonna find quests that show why any of them is superiour to the other as I wasn't the one stating opinions as facts.

 

If you want to be anything but random noise then start coming up with arguments. Just naming quests aren't arguments.

This for example.

 

Edit: And this:

To find Bastila, you had to find the crashed pod

Oh my, walking sure is fun. And you even get to kill monsters while walking!

You didn't just walk to find the crashed pod. You had to find out there was a crashed pod, obtain a Geth uniform or papers, go to the lower level, deal with the refugees, and finally explore the area while fighting off the Rathghouls and dealing with Sith patrols. It's these kinds of ignorant and dismissive statements from you that make it very difficult to discuss anything. Obviously anything I say was fun you'll just come back and say was boring and cliche just so you can be right. Edited August 29, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Pidesco]

Fine, you can call anyone who wants to play 3D games graphics whores,

I didn't say that at all.

 

but they succeeded with KOTOR and failed with ME, which is what matters. I'm not saying graphics aren't important, it's when they're prioritized over everything else there's a problem, and the quote I gave is proof of that.

 

What do you mean by "succeeded"? Wasn't ME, like KOTOR, a huge commercial and critical success?

[Xard]

WoD, did you consider the fact circumstances surrounding you playing K1 shroud your judgement?

 

 

I personally only started to dig in RPG's in 2003 and K1 was one of the first games I played. And it was just pure awesome.

 

However, more I played games and esp. older RPG's Kotor's status started to drastically weaken.

 

Game that was for quite a while my Number One Game Ever doesn't even make it to my Top Twenty anymore, even though I have many of my fondest memories gaming memories with that game. Playing K2 never was such "OH MY GOD WOW" moment like K1 had been, but nowaday I consider K2 to be hundred times better game.

 

 

Mass Effect from all I've seen, read and heard just can't be worse. It actually has more than one important decision to make, better combat system (kotors one is horrible), better graphics and production values etc.

 

Only thing Kotor 1 seems to have over ME is the setting, because Star Wars in kotor era still retains the magic Original Trilogy Star Wars had.

 

But as a game it should be inferior in every way.

 

By the way that mission comparison wasn't fair at all. Kotor missions were chockful with simply killing crap

 

Korriban was awesome though

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[Wrath of Dagon]

Fine, you can call anyone who wants to play 3D games graphics whores,

I didn't say that at all.

You said KOTOR was developed for graphics whores because it had 3D graphics.

 

What do you mean by "succeeded"? Wasn't ME, like KOTOR, a huge commercial and critical success?

Succeeded in making a good game.

[Xard]

judging by amount of people really liking the game - even those who hate everything Bio spew out after BG2 or alternatively HotU - compared with those who liked kotor but didn't like ME like you...well, numbers are crushing

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Debate to you means poo-poing someone else's points while making none of your own.

O RLY? And where exactly did you come across that definition of "debate"? I was under the impression that it meant something like "a contention by words or arguments" or "to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments."

[Wrath of Dagon]

WoD, did you consider the fact circumstances surrounding you playing K1 shroud your judgement?

 

 

I personally only started to dig in RPG's in 2003 and K1 was one of the first games I played. And it was just pure awesome.

Same here, it got me into RPG's, and it's still awesome. I've replayed it several times since then.

 

Playing K2 never was such "OH MY GOD WOW" moment like K1 had been, but nowaday I consider K2 to be hundred times better game.

I disagree, K2 is better in some ways but worse in others, overall they're about equal to me.

 

Mass Effect from all I've seen, read and heard just can't be worse. It actually has more than one important decision to make, better combat system (kotors one is horrible), better graphics and production values etc.

Yes, so what? There are a few "important decisions", unfortunately most of them have big flashing signs saying "Make Big Important Decision Here" instead of being organic to the story. They're not enough to make the game anyway, and the rest of the stuff isn't relevant if the content isn't there.