My alternate DnD Spellcasting system

[ramza]

I have made up my own spellcasting system which is a mixture between the system used for Wizards and the one used for Sorcerers. I also wanted to motivate players to keep their stats tied to their spellcasting ability high enough. This is done by rewarding them for investing points in those stats.

 

Removal of spell memorization system : all spellcasters have the same progression tables (max of 4 spells per spell level except for specialist wizards who get one additional spell per spell level). All spellcasters have spellbooks in which they copy scrolls (Spellcraft check is required). Spellcasters can copy on their spellbooks a maximum number spells equal to the number value of their primary stat that is above 10 (ie: if a wizard has 18 INT, he can learn 8 spells per spell level - I got inspired from 2E rules for this one). Spellcasters can however erase a known spell to make room for another one. Among those spells, they select a more restricted number of which will be available for casting. These spells are cast spontaneously and alternatively (in other words, if a wizard can select 5 spells to cast, he will be able to use any of these spells at any given time provided he still has spell uses left - just like a Sorcerer used to do). The number of spells available to cast is tied to the caster's primary stat modifier. Of course, a spellcaster may choose a different set of spells to cast the next day every time he is about to rest (this is directly inspired from the spell memorization system).

 

I hope it is clear enough. Don't hesitate to ask me questions.

 

Cheers.

 

PS: In case you are wondering what will happen to the Sorcerer class, I can tell you that I have mostly copied the core class from the Pathfinder RPG (with all these Bloodline powers). I believe these powers make up for the loss of those extra spell uses.

[ramza]

No comments on my alternative spell casting system?

 

Int effects # of spells you can put into the book, but doesn't cap the highest level of which you are capable? So if you had, say, a 16 intelligence you could scribe 6 per level but couldn't learn any 7th(like 3e)?

 

The lower tiered spells, 1st & 2nd, are full of variety and usefulness, and I'd not want to be limited to just a handful in my book.

 

INT (for wizards) effects BOTH the number of spells that can be learned and the highest level of which you are capable. So, in order to be able to cast 9th level spells, you need to have at least 19 of INT (preferably 20, in order to get +1 to your modifiers). With an INT of 20, you may learn up to 10 spells per spell level.

 

Amongst those 10 spells, you have to select those you are going to cast (the number is equal to your INT modifier - in other words, you get to choose 5 spells if you have an INT of 20). The advantage of this system is that it gives you both the flexibility of the wizard and that of the sorcerer: you have a scrollbook from which you pick some spells and you may cast those spontaneously as a sorcerer (there won't be memorized spell slots anymore). Of course, you can always change this selection of spells just before resting.

 

There are 2 main reason I created this alternate spellcasting system. First, I always found that the spell memorization system lacked of flexibility. You could have like 18 spells per spell level but could only cast those that you had specifically memorized (you couldn't even switch between your memorized spells). In that sense, the sorcerer's spontaneous casting seemed more appealing. However (and this is the second reason), while sorcerers could spontaneously cast any of their selected spells (as long as they still had spell uses), they didn't have that much choice/variety in the spells they could cast (5 spells known per spell level is really not enough).

 

So, I came up with this alternate rule. You may learn more spells, but (in order to balance things) you may not cast spontaneously all of them. You pick a selected number and if you don't like them, pick other spells before resting. With this rule, I also incite players to invest in their stat linked to their spellcasting ability, and and to go all the way up to level 20 with the same class (I am not a fan of multiclassing, so I try to make the core classes more interesting and attractive).

[Walsingham]

I've always felt that NO fantasy rpg has captured anything remotely magical about being a magic user. It always felt like loading a revolver more than tapping mystic powers.

[Atom523]

I've always felt that NO fantasy rpg has captured anything remotely magical about being a magic user. It always felt like loading a revolver more than tapping mystic powers.

 

I agree, I never understood how a man/woman who has studied magic all their lives a master of the arcane can cast a spell.....and then totally forget how to do it again for an entire day.

I prefer magic systems that use belief to use magic. If you know the magic you can keep casting it no matter what. Sure game rules limit how often you can do it but you don't suddenly just arbitrarily lose your ability.

 

I like this system a bit more then standard D&D but i dislike that system overall.

[Walsingham]

Aye, I'd prefer something that tracks nervous exhaustion. Maybe something like a combination of hitpoints, and the cycberpsychosis things with cyberpunk. Use magic a lot and you can suffer permanent medical harm, as well as losing touch with reality. Of course I'd also favour getting properly grizzled as a fighter, but then I'm no fun at all.

[Darque]

I've always felt that NO fantasy rpg has captured anything remotely magical about being a magic user. It always felt like loading a revolver more than tapping mystic powers.

 

 

7th Sea had a good magic system.

[Walsingham]

I've always felt that NO fantasy rpg has captured anything remotely magical about being a magic user. It always felt like loading a revolver more than tapping mystic powers.

 

 

7th Sea had a good magic system.

 

 

How does it work? *he asks sweetly*

[ramza]

Thank you all for your feedback. You do raise interest points and I have to admit that I must reconsider the system I made up.

 

My main objective is to ensure the sorcerer's spontaneous spellcasting along with the wizard's flexibility (ability to know many spells).

 

I could always keep two distinct wizard and sorcerer classes and simply change the way they operate.

 

For example, a sorcerer may have the spell progression of a wizard but may keep the table of spells known of the Phb. Moreover, since the number

of spells known is very low, we may add a rule upon which a sorcerer may learn an additional spell per spell level for every 5 ranks spent in the Spellcraft skill.

 

Concerning wizards, we could apply a slightly different spellcasting system. A wizard keeps the same spell progression table. However, for every 5 ranks in the Spellcraft skill, he may, once per day, use any of his spell slots in order to spontaneously cast any of the spells copied in his spellbook (of the same spell level of course). That way, he is not totally limited to the spells he chose to memorize AND he is incited to invest points in a specific skill.

[darastrix83]

I've always felt that NO fantasy rpg has captured anything remotely magical about being a magic user. It always felt like loading a revolver more than tapping mystic powers.

 

On this side topic I would have to suggest that you all look at the white wolf system called simply Mage. Here I'm talking about Mage the Acension which is the old World of Darkness. I have no idea what the new system is like. But this system is flexible and works like a spontaneous casting version of the Epic magic system in DnD. You functionally have areas of magic you are good at using and then you can combine those areas to create effects.

[darastrix83]

On the main topic:

 

I understand why you would want to make the casting system more flexible. It would be more interesting and would link to having paradigms of the concept. Wizards with amazing int so on and so forth. I would normally point out here how much more powerful your system is and how unbalanced it would make this class. However, I have seen some of your other posts and am inclined to believe that you have likewise made all the other classes better than standard as well.

 

- therefore my only point of contention is that the system you have suggested completely removes the strategy part of these classes. The inflexible way the wizard chooses his spells rewards intelligent and intuitive players for making good choices when they memorized their spells in the first place. The same is true for the sorcerer. The challenge is in choosing a small number of spells to account for all your needs.

 

I have no idea what game balance must look like in your world any more but it seems to me in your zeal to make everything stronger you basically gave everything in the game extra powers and effectively changed nothing other then spending a huge amount of time and energy. Elegant and small changes archive better results than the baseline attacks you take against the system.

 

If you want a truly flexible and balanced spell casting system I would suggest creating a new magic system from the ground up that has nothing to do with the preset spells that the standard magic system dictates.

[ramza]

On the main topic:

 

I understand why you would want to make the casting system more flexible. It would be more interesting and would link to having paradigms of the concept. Wizards with amazing int so on and so forth. I would normally point out here how much more powerful your system is and how unbalanced it would make this class. However, I have seen some of your other posts and am inclined to believe that you have likewise made all the other classes better than standard as well.

 

- therefore my only point of contention is that the system you have suggested completely removes the strategy part of these classes. The inflexible way the wizard chooses his spells rewards intelligent and intuitive players for making good choices when they memorized their spells in the first place. The same is true for the sorcerer. The challenge is in choosing a small number of spells to account for all your needs.

 

I have no idea what game balance must look like in your world any more but it seems to me in your zeal to make everything stronger you basically gave everything in the game extra powers and effectively changed nothing other then spending a huge amount of time and energy. Elegant and small changes archive better results than the baseline attacks you take against the system.

 

If you want a truly flexible and balanced spell casting system I would suggest creating a new magic system from the ground up that has nothing to do with the preset spells that the standard magic system dictates.

 

Thanks for your reply! I was merely giving food for thought. I have not yet implemented any of the changes I have posted on these boards. I am mainly trying to improve the rules of the Phb by adding or removing features from some of the base classes. I use many sources of inspiration: the Pathfinder RPG, class variants from the Unearthed Arcana and Arcana Unearthed books and class variants from other players.

 

I had never thought of changing the wizard and sorcerer classes until I saw some posts in these message boards where some people underlined the serious flaws of these classes. In the end, I may never change anything to these classes. However, I still wanted to suggest some alternatives. If they are not balanced or viable, I will drop my ideas of course.

 

Let me ask you a question concerning my variant sorcerer: Is it THAT much unbalanced to have him receive less spells per day but, on the other hand, let him learn more spells per spell level? I get your point though: being able to spontaneously cast more or less 90 spells (when your sorcerer reaches level 20) will probably break the game's balance. An alternative to the system I suggested would be to remove the bonus known spells for every 5 ranks spent in Spellcraft, but raise the number of known spells in the Known Spells Table by either 1 or 2.

 

In any case, I really have to take a look again the variant sorcerer class from Monte Cook.

[Walsingham]

I may have to get a mage or two in the party for my campaign that I am going to be running which no-one is helping me with. That may allow me better insight.

 

*cough cough*

[darastrix83]

You didn't respond as if I what I said was offensive but re-reading it I think I came off a little brusque. So for that I wanted to apologize. I am actually quite impressed with your dedication to your game world and the amount of time you spend trying to improve the systems.

 

That said, yes what you propose, especially being to choose from 90 spontaneous spells breaks the system. My favorite class is the wizard. Just the basic non-specialty wizard. With just the power that I get from that class and my ability to think a head and plan what spells I will need for the day and my ability to use old spells in new ways I am usually the strongest member of any party by 3rd level hands down. If you gave me more spells per day and then said choose any five spells and you can switch between them sanctimoniously I am now so powerful that if I am a talented player I no longer need a party at all for anything more than company.

 

To give you a good example of how powerful spontaneously spell casting for wizards should be considered there is a feat where you must have a spell Mastered (the Feat) then you give up a spell slot 6 levels higher, then you can choose 1 spell and you can cast it spontaneously. Given that do you see how powerful allowing all spells to be cast spontaneously would be?

 

I would suggest again using an alternate system for those people that want to have more variety in how they cast their spells. The easiest thing that I could suggest would be to adapt the Psyonic class to make a new mage class. First use the alternate rules where spell resistance works vs psyonics and vice versa. Then if there are staple spells I.E. magic Missle that you would like look at the relative powerlevel of psyonic powers and make a magic missle power.

 

If you don't want to do that because you already have psyonics or it just grates you the wrong way. Then you might want to look into creating a class that sacrifices health to spontaneously cast spells. For instance the class you invisioned earlier with no limits on the number of spells they can cast but who takes un-healable non-lethal damage (this damage heals in time as normal but should not be able to be magicaly healed) equal to the spell level of any spell cast would be fairly close to balanced. Then an average level one mage could cast 5 spells and then pass out. That's more then they can cast now. And they could be spontaneous to any spell they have but it also leaves them very vulnerable to attack since they are so close to unconsciousness as they cast spells.

[ramza]

First of all, thank you for your apology. It was not really necessary. I thought you were in a bad mood when you were typing your post or that you made it look so unintentionally. In any case, I have been posting here since the creation of these boards and have often faced some harsh criticism. It's just not worth worrying about that.

 

I love theory crafting and I try to improve the basic 3.5 rules in the most optimized way. The concepts of some base class seems completely flawed to my eyes (the ranger, the paladin, the bard and the cleric mainly come to my mind). This is a very hard and time-consuming task but I just enjoy playing with numbers and tables. Unfortunately, I don't have that much of experience as a DM and that is why I am asking all kinds of questions on these boards.

 

Thanks for submitting your ideas and suggestions. Unfortunately, I have banned psionics from my gaming sessions because it is too tough for me to keep track of all the rules concerning the use of psionic powers (power points, feats, skills, etc). For the same reasons, I have banned classes like the Warlock, the Artificer and the Truenamer since this involves "learning" new "spell" (invocations, infusions, etc) descriptions. I want to keep my p&p sessions as simple as possible without referring to multiple source books.

 

Have you ever looked at the Pathfinder Sorcerer class? I like the legacy features paizo has added to this core class. A sorcerer may have draconic, elemental, angelic or fiendish blood in his veins. Depending on his ancestry, a sorcerer gains special abilities related to his legacy. I have been considering adding some of these features: it mainly concerns the special abilities related to this legacy (I will exclude, on the other hand, all the bonus spell and bonus feats paizo suggests). So, a sorcerer with draconic blood will be receiving some of the class features of the dragon disciple prestige class (immunities, wings, etc) for example.

 

Since the addition of these features will unbalance the sorcerer class as a core class, I have thought of giving him the spell progression of a wizard (4 spells per spell level at level 20). As a counterpart, he may learn an additional spell per spell level depending on his CHA modifier (alternatively, I could just slightly change the table of spells known).

 

Cheers.

[darastrix83]

Humm, I think I am starting to get a better understanding of what it is that you are trying to accomplish. If you don't mind me asking, how is it that you have been posting here for years but have little actual DM experience? Do you have trouble finding or keeping a group? How much player experience do you have and how often are you able to play test your modifications?

 

I can understand banning the Psyonics and other more rules intensive additional magic systems from your game.

 

Here is what you seem to be trying to accomplish correct me if you feel that I am wrong

- You want a system that does not require you to constantly refer to or preferably even purchase any of the books

- You want your players to have nearly unlimited choices without your game getting to cluttered to remember everything

- You want everything to be balanced so the players have a fair chance in PvP

- You want your system to conform to your ideas about each race, IE you think Dwarves are unattractive

 

I think I pretty much hit your four big points. If one is wrong or i am missing one tell me which one.

 

It seems to me you spend a great deal of time converting the whole system which took hundreds and thousands of man hours to properly balance and play test in the first place. I also here you constantly talking about how week the classes are and that you don't like paladins bard rangers and clerics but i know you also don't like sorcerers, or mages which I think leaves Barbarians monks and Rouges that you do like. And I'm willing to bet that when push comes to shove you don't really like them either. None of this is a bad thing. However I would like you to consider the following.

 

Maybe you should create unique classes/races using the unmodified original versions of the classes as balance templates. Trust me when I tell you that the game is very well balanced and moving it so much is dangerous to fairness to say the least.

 

So then when you DM if someone says "I want to be a cleric no customization for me please!" You don't feel bad for them that's what they were interested in playing. But if they say I want to make a spell caster that casts through inteligence and has a background where he ingests potions that slowly turn him into a dragon you can make a wizard that gains draconicbloodline features and some spontaneous casting per day but becomes limited in the number of spells he can know.

 

Most DM's shy away from this kind of thing because of how time intensive the modifications are. However, this is clearly not a problem for you this would actually give you more time to spend on other parts of your game. Such as making the storyline very well thought out and interesting. Plus each character will feel unique. No one that wanted to play a sexy dwarf will have to be denied and you can customize and play with system to your hearts content.

 

I do suggest you buy just three books though. The players handbook (you need it if for nothing else referencing all the spells) the Dungeon masters guide (has a lot of balance information that you will find indispensable with all the customization that you do) and the Monster Manual (unless you want all pvp action or have the time to make hundreds of monsters but it's still a great balance reference for power races and challenge ratings) If you buy the three books as a set it won't set you back so badly.

 

If I still had the time to make all my classes and races from scratch I definitely would. It creates such a rich and varied world and allows your players to be truly creative and imaginative...assuming you can find players who actual want to create and imagine. But I have a real grown up job now so I trade my money for other people's creativity and go play.

 

Good luck on all your creative endeavors. I'm sure you'll hear from me again. I'm addicted to writing about system and you're the only one who seems to be talking about it here.

[ramza]

I would first like to thank you for the interest you have showed for my work. It's sometimes hard to get people to post replies in my threads. Yet, here you are trying to understand my motivations.

 

Well to answer your questions:

 

1) I don't have much experience as a DM because my gaming group and I live in different cities. I usually meet my friends during holidays. Moreover, I was pretty busy with uni which prevented me from playing with my friends even when I was on holidays (you know, I had to revise for my exams). I have been done with uni since last year, so I have had some free time to think about the changes I wanted to bring to the d&d rules. Whenever I came up with an idea, I would immediately take a pencil and a notebook and write it down. When my ideas didn't look balanced, I would post them here and listen to the pros and cons. Most of my experience in dnd comes from the video games that use this system (mainly NWN). I have tried some online P&P website, the people playing there were very nice and helpful but the software’s interface they were using wasn’t very good.

 

I see that you are new here, so I guess you haven't read any of my early posts where I suggested some new base classes. One of them was the mime, an adventurer who could magically learn and mimic other creatures' or other NPCs' special abilities (these included sneak attack, barbarian rage, dragon breath, etc). He could also cast arcane and divine spells up to the 6th spell level (a bit like the bard). I have playtested that class and it worked pretty well.

 

I have not implemented yet any of the suggestions I have posted in these boards. These were mostly thoughts I was having about how to change the rules. Just for your information, I am mostly using the SRD and bring my changes directly from there. Most of the changes I have brought are only minor. Some classes have partly or completely been revised like the Bard, the Ranger, the Paladin and the Barbarian. So, it's not that I hate any of the Phb classes. It’s just that some of them are lacking and "unattractive" if I may use that word. They need some more flavour and should allow for more customization.

 

In other words, I am merely trying to change or improve the following chapters of the Phb: races, classes and skills. I am not trying to do anything big except for trying to make the game more interesting. Most of my players keep playing over and over the same classes (fighter and wizard). That is why I try to make the other classes a bit more interesting. Fortunately, I am quite imaginative, so I don’t have problems coming up with stories. That is why I focus all my efforts on changing parts of the 3.5 rules.

 

 

2) Concerning my motivations, you got two wrong assumptions (one of them is only partially wrong though):

 

- PvP combat is not a top priority to me. I did mention in one of my other threads that I was concerned about balancing the Bard class so that it may do better on one-on-one combat. I didn’t mention though why I was concerned about this. I had in mind the case where I would be DMing only a single player. I was thinking of putting him in situations where he would have to battle with a character of an equivalent level but of another class (wizard vs sorcerer, bard vs druid, etc.). My problem is that if he chose to be a bard, he wouldn’t be able to do very well in one-on-one combat because a bard is more of a support character and a skill-powerhouse.

 

- I do try, in a sense, to conform my house rules with my personal vision of what dnd should be, but this is to a very small extent. My top priority is to allow more variety while keeping the game balanced at the same time. Besides, I never try to impose anything to my players. If they wish to use the Phb races and classes, they may do so. I am still at an experimental stage anyway.

 

Concerning races, I have changed my mind over a few things I had posted here in the past. Dwarves don’t have to be ugly, etc. I am now trying to make as many subraces as possible so as to add variety to the game. Each subrace now has a +2 boost to 2 different abilities and a -2 penalty to 2 different abilities as well. Depending on the subrace, these boosts and penalties may differ, thus adding some flexibility for the players. Want a dwarf without a charisma penalty? Take a gold dwarf and so on for other races. Usually, subraces have a common denominator: in other words, they usually have a boost and a penalty to at least one identical ability (most dwarf subraces have a +2 to CON and a -2 to CHA, most elf races have a +2 to DEX and a -2 to CON, etc). I am still not done with these house rules, that is why I haven’t posted anything yet.

 

Same goes for my vision of the cleric class and about how HPs should be handled. I had a very precise vision of what a cleric should be but people here pointed out the flaws of my reasoning. Thus, I am finally just doing minor changes to the Phb cleric class and I gave up on changing the rules about HPs since that would require an overhaul of the whole system.

 

 

 

I hope I have managed to shed some light over my motivations and the changes I wish to make. Thank you again for your interest.

 

To return to the thread’s topic, I have decided to keep the wizard class as it is in the Phb, and I have decided to do the following things for the sorcerer class:

 

- give him heritage special abilities (see the Pathfinder RPG)

- remove the summon familiar class ability

- use the spell progression table of the wizard

- raise the number of spells known by 1 for each spell level

 

Any thoughts? Cheers.

Edited August 6, 2008 by ramza

[darastrix83]

Thanks for your last reply it will help with this and future posts.

 

- give him heritage special abilities (see the Pathfinder RPG)

- remove the summon familiar class ability

- use the spell progression table of the wizard

- raise the number of spells known by 1 for each spell level

 

Any thoughts? Cheers.

 

As for this I think it looks actually quite good. I've always liked the idea of say the draconic casters but those classes are always nerfed and lack spell progression. So a heritage progression sounds fun and your trading the mass number of spells per day down to give the heritage boosts and the extra spell known per level.

 

I like it and it sounds both balanced and fun. Humm don't feel like I helped much here but I learned alot. Maybe I can help more next time. I'm also going to post a class that I've been adapting from AD&D so look for that I'm interested in your comments.

 

Peace

[ramza]

But you DID help. You actually pointed out the flaws of my previous variant wizard and sorcerer classes.

 

Concerning the wizard, I have always wanted to give him more feats than what the Phb does. Firstly, I replaced the scribe scroll feat at first level with a bonus feat that can be selected at the player's discretion (among other metamagic and crafting feats). Secondly, a wizard no longer gets a bonus feat every five levels, but gets one every four levels instead. These changes are part of the slight boost I am giving to each core class in my house rules.

 

Now, my problem is what I should do with specialist wizards. Should I give them a +1 bonus to their caster level when they are casting spells from they school? Will such a bonus make them too much powerful? If no, can I make the universal wizard gain a bonus feat every 3 levels (instead of every 4) to compensate this bonus specialist wizards get?

 

Cheers.

 

PS: I am looking forward to seeing your custom class. Be sure that I will help you with any balancing problems (if there are any at all).

[darastrix83]

I like the idea of giving the Wizard a feat every 4 instead of 5 levels because quite honestly many classes hold interest even at high levels but with only a bonus feat every 5 levels it just doesn't make sense not to have to take a prestige class.

 

As far as the specialty wizards give them the feat every 4 levels as well. Specialists are basically a template that modifies the basic wizard class and remains balanced as long as you leave it that way. The bonus caster level is very powerful and should be avoided.

 

I posted my class on a new topic thread. There's still some missing but it's a long project and the class discription is there for now. I look forward to your comments.

[ramza]

I suspected indeed that giving specialist wizards a +1 caster level for spells of their specialty school would unbalance the class. It's just that I wasn't sure how powerful such a bonus is.

 

I now have a question that has nothing to do with wizards and sorcerers. I am also considering boosting a little bit the cleric class and make it more interesting by adding a new level of variety. This can eventually be done by giving them a bonus feat for every five levels (it can either be a metamagic or a divine feat - like divine might, divine shield, etc). There are a few ways to counterbalance these bonuses:

 

-remove the heavy weapon proficiency and allow clerics to cast spells in medium armor at best

-AND reduce the number of spell uses per day (they gain one less spell use for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th spell level)

 

However, I am not sure if these are enough to balance the class. I am thus considering adding the following:

-make clerics only have one domain (instead of two)

 

What do you think of these changes?

[darastrix83]

Yeah the thing about that +1 effective level is it works like 1/2 the spell penetration feat. So off the bat it's a free feat and then you have the fact that there are feats out there like fire caster that give you a bonus spellcaster level to say fire spells so mix that with a specialist and your first level evoker is doing 3d4(average 7) with his flaming hands which could easily lay waste to a whole gang of orcs for instance, or likely the entire rest of the party.

 

I know you've been talking about changing the cleric in another thread and first I should reiterate some of the things that have been said there. One of the things that stops the cleric from being a healing b#*%& and makes them very different from the wizard or sorcerer class, or really the bard who can wield light armor and light weapons and cast spontaneous heals and has bardic knowledge and has a lot of skills, is that they can wade into battle in full plate and smash a holy maul into their enemies head. Also I know it bugs you that clerics cast spells in whatever armor they choose but divine magic is not a science the movements a cleric makes are akin to crossing yourself at a catholic church. In other words they are a devotion but even done clumsily or poorly they still trigger the spells effect because they still show the clerics devotion to their deity.

 

As for balancing the class the cleric is deceptive in that the power of their turn undead checks are directly linked to their cleric level. If you've gone looking classes that increase your divine caster level and undead check level at each level and give you something else are extraordinarily rare. I'm not sure if there even is one, not saying there isn't but i haven't seen one. And that can be a very powerful combination given all of the divine feats especially ones that let you turn other creatures with that check. I would say as much as you itch to change the cleric class let it be. If your players are board with the cleric they will muticlass into a more diverse, but unable to turn undead, version of the cleric. Or if you absolutely feel you must change something give the cleric 1 bonus feat at 7th and another at 14th as kind of a reward for not multi classing and leave the rest of the class alone.

[ramza]

Mmmm, I do see your point there... However, let me remind you that a cleric's divine feats work "hand-in-hand" with a cleric's turn undead ability. Usually a divine feat's description looks like this: "you may expand one use of turn undead in order to...". So, getting both bonus feats and turn undead is a necessary combination to my eyes. I do believe that making the cleric gain one less domain (along with the other changes I suggested) should automatically balance things.

 

In my house rules, spellcasting is, in principle, always subject to spell failure when the caster wears armor, no matter the source of the spell (divine or arcane). However, some spellcasters, through training, have learnt how to cast spells while carrying armor and shields (this specifically applies to paladins, clerics and druids, but even to bards to a lesser extent). While Paladins cast spells while wearing heavy armor, Druids can wear Hide armor (the least protective type of medium armor). For the sake of "harmonising things", I wish that both main divine spellcasters may cast their spells at best with medium armor.

 

I will have to give a bit more thought on this. Thanks for your feedback anyway!

Edited August 8, 2008 by ramza

[Walsingham]

As you may have getherd I'm revisiting the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay game, and in that you have to sue spell components to get spells. And tehy are non-linear. Some non-combat spells take pints of dragons blood! It's really pretty cool. Can't wait to see it in the game.

[ramza]

For the sake of simplicity, I have removed the use of material components for spellcasting. Sorry...