Palestine/Arab-Israeli Conflict

[Hurlshort]

I would really appreciate it if Yuusha would address the suicide bombings, given that a women just killed herself and 10 others in Iraq. Where is the strong Muslim outcry against this type of action?

[Gorgon]

They're all cried out from the last 1000.

 

No honestly, who would speak for all of Islam. There are plenty who claim to, like the terrorist groups, but when they do we all know it's a lie.

[Yuusha]

@Hurlshot:

Yuusha, what about the suicide bombers? That seems to be a pretty big issue here. You keep using the word atrocity. I have no problem accepting that Israel and the US deserve blame for their actions, but as a Muslim, I would think you would be even more aghast at the individuals who bomb randomly in the name of Allah. They are the ones dragging Islam through the mud.

 

The stance you take on this board seems to be "I am a Muslim, and I am educating western heathens." I celebrate Ramadan and I attend mosques more regularly than any Christian church. I've contemplated converting for the last couple years. There is only one thing that has stopped me from fully embracing Islam:

 

The lack of a strong Muslim movement against suicide bombing. Seriously, there are millions of peaceful Muslims, how can they stand to allow corrupt imams to take advantage of the youth in this way? These imams are taking young minds and warping them so they can commit terrible acts. There is no issue that will be solved by suicide bombing, that is certain. So where is the Muslim response?

True there are Imams preaching hatred on Mosques, Madrasas etc. Sadly, I don't think we would be able to completely eradicate extremists and radical nuts if the core of the problem is not appropriately dealt with. The root of Islamic terrorism is Israel's occupation of Palestine. There are no countermeasures against people that are ready to die.

 

The late Arafat was clearly against suicide bombings:

1. On Palestinian TV, on 28 March 2002, at 20:08 GMT, Arafat stated in Arabic:

 

"On this occasion, I would like once again to reiterate our condemnation of yesterday's operation in Netanya, in which a number of innocent Israeli civilians were killed and wounded. This operation constitutes a deviation from our policy and a violation of our national and human values. I affirm our commitment to working toward an immediate cease-fire, as we informed General Zinni. We highly value his efforts. We informed him that we are ready for the immediate implementation of the Tenet's work plan without conditions, and without prejudicing any of its articles. Also, we have informed him of our readiness to implement the Mitchell Report recommendations in cooperation with the four-way US-Russian-European-UN committee headed by Gen. Zinni."

 

2. On December 16, 2001, in a speech on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah (Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT) Arafat stated in Arabic:

 

"Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation."

 

One of the most common argument regarding Israel's 'moral superiority' on their supposed 'war on terror.':

 

"There is no moral equivalence between suicide bombings on the one hand, and Israel's killing of Palestinians on the other because while suicide bombings deliberately target civilians, Israeli forces do not."

 

Suicide bombing is a reprehensible and unacceptable tactic. These attacks should stop immediately. What needs to be added, and what is almost always missing in American media commentary is a similar condemnation of Israel's deliberate targeting of Palestinian civilians.

 

Since the Palestinian uprising started in late September 2000, more than 1,500 Palestinians, and 400 Israelis have been killed (as of April 12, 2002), the vast majority on both sides being unarmed civilians. Most of the deadly violence against innocent civilians, therefore, has been committed by Israeli forces and has been directed at Palestinians.

 

Israel and its supporters claim that while Palestinian suicide bombers deliberately target Israeli civilians, Israel tries to avoid harming Palestinian civilians and that those who have died are "collateral damage." Hence, they argue, there is no moral equivalence between the killing of civilians by Israel and Palestinians. This defies both common sense and all the available evidence.

 

On the one hand, Israel wants us to believe that 400 of its own civilians were deliberately targeted, while more than three times as many dead Palestinians all somehow just got in the way of what Israel claims is its humane and disciplined army. It is, in essence, an argument that 1,500 people all died by accident.

 

Every human rights group that has examined Israel's practices has documented systematic and deliberate use of violence targeted at unarmed Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. Physicians for Human Rights USA which investigated the high number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the first months of the Intifada, concluded that:

 

"the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF [israel Defense Forces] use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing."

[source: PHR USA, 22 November 2000

 

This finding was based on "the totality of the evidence" the investigators collected about:

 

"the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths."

 

There can be no doubt that Israeli troops have been targeting innocent Palestinian civilians for death from the beginning of the uprising. This understanding was also reflected in UN Security Council Resolution 1322, passed on October 7, 2000, which

 

"Condemns acts of violence, especially the excessive use of force against Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life."

 

In making the moral superiority claim, Israel's apologists are either shamelessly denying the irrefutable evidence cited above and are simply lying, or they are asserting that some forms of murder are morally superior to other forms of murder.

 

Bottom line: The only way to end suicide bombings and other kinds of Palestinian violence is to end the extreme violence of the Israeli military occupation which produces and fuels both Palestinian resistance against the occupation forces and violent attacks against Israeli civilians. Absent a political process explicitly designed to end the occupation, there is little reason to believe that such attacks can or will end.

------------------

@Samm, Sand, random noob:

I'll answer your questions later tonight, gotta get to work.

[Hurlshort]

This still doesn't address the suicide bombings taking place is Afghanistan and Iraq, and anywhere else in the world. Many of these attacks are targeting Muslims themselves. It just seems like Sunni's, Shi'ites, and any other Muslim groups should be reaching a breaking point where their differences are outweighed by these reprehensible acts. I'm really not addressing the Palestine/Israel issue, I'm trying to address what I feel is holding Islam back from complete acceptance by the western world. Your banner says coexist, and I couldn't agree with it more, but it really seems like Muslims should be doing more to combat extremists groups that are destroying the message of Mohammad.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

@Samm, Sand, random noob:

I'll answer your questions later tonight, gotta get to work.

 

Am I not worthy of a response, or was my question simply too hard for you?

[Yuusha]

@'Deadly'_Nightshade:

Wait a second, was not that land part of the British Empire and, before that, the Ottoman Empire? In fact, is it not true that there has never been an independent state of Palestine - or at least not one in modern history? Correct me if I am mistaken, I am far from an expert in the history of Israel, but I am fairly certain what I just said is true.

That's what all the damn fighting is about!!!!!!!!!!

 

At the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict lies the question of land and who rules it. The collision of Jewish nationalist colonisation and Palestian nationalism, both laying claim to the same territory, forms the basis of this long conflict.

 

Lemme simplify it for you....

 

Ya see... it's like this...

 

Jews were living there ages ago, got kicked out, conquered, whatever. Arabs and Muslims moved in, took over and were minding their own business when all of a sudden, at the end of WW2, some bone head said:

 

Hey! I got a great idea! Why don't we just CREATE a state called ISRAEL and stick all the jews THERE!!!!

 

Great idea, everyone shouted. The Zionists, with the help of the champion of justice and freedom (the US of friggin A), then shipped them all there.

 

One smaaaaalllll teeny weeny problem though, there were people who were ALREADY living there!!! They naturally had a SLIGHT problem with this grand idea and didn't appreciate it much, being told to give up their homes , their schools, their land... and get the hell OUT....... so we could make this new brave land, ISRAEL!

 

Oh and we don't give a flying fudge that you guys have been living here since ancient times, we're here to take this land and all of you guys can just kiss our zionists asses and go to friggin HADES!!!! If not, then SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIIEEEEND!!!!

 

The ones that stayed found themselves enclosed within the borders of a new country. A country that granted them no rights whatsofrigginever. Others fled... thinking the situation was only temporary!

 

Imagine, being kicked out of your HOME and TOLD to give it up to someone else! Yeah RIGHT! Who in their right MIND, would tolerate that? When there are GUNS pointed at you.... you move or you friggin die where you friggin stand!!!

 

So they moved. Some died where they stood. The ones that moved......want their confiscated land back. Barring that, they'd at least appreciate equal rights.

 

Israel: Because formally there never was a Palestine, therefore the people living here do not exist. This land is ours for the taking.

Palestine: Like hell we don't exist, this land have been our home for generations!!! There aint no way in friggin hell we're just gonna hand it over to you invaders!!!!

 

So there!

-------------------------------

 

@Samm:

That "explanation" is supposed by the authors of this booklet. Does that make it a fact? It just shows that what they constructed as general stance is wrong, not that the general stance is wrong...

Says who? "What really happened" = "look, WE tell you the thruth.

Now that paragraph does sound like facts, and does display a problem - agreed. Why not building an informative booklet on facts instead of truth claims.

Again: You mix truths (call "anti-semitism" comes too fast) with claims and exclamations that make it very hard to discuss on a meaningful level.

This is why I tend to ignore posts from people that are oblivious to the happenings in the Middle East. Because as I've displayed on my response to deadly nightshade, giving history lessons are tiring. So why don't you do a little reading on the history of the region before passing judgment on both Palestine and Israel. That way, you can find out first hand the accuracy of the booklet.

 

So here it comes again... sick.gif You keep telling yourself that, seems to be a comfortable lie to live in and justify the anger against a land/religion/people (pick whatever is appropriate for your current cause).

 

Why aren't you answering DeadlyNightshade's question about the past of supposed "palestine"? Why not elaborate on the Arabs' (and other Muslims') stance on the palestinians before it became so fashionable to use them as an excuse for disregarding the right of existence - or the existence itself! - of Israel? And why do you try to "awake" us now, that it is generally accepted, that Israel and a palestinian state should coexist (as propagated by your sig)?

 

You wanna talk about the right to exist???

 

Since the war of 1967, Palestinians have come to accept the reality of Israel within the 1948 boundaries. The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel has not withdrawn, however, and it has built many Jewish settlements in the territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.

 

Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories, as is Israel's continued settlement-building. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues.

 

I agree that The Palestinians and Israelis should coexist and share the friggin land. But coexistence would be difficult to achieve unless the Israeli government grants equal rights to Palestinians. But the thing is, Israel simply could not afford to grant equal rights to the Palestinians because it will give the Palestinians the power take over someday kick their sorry asses out. And they can't give back the land now too, because then Israel would cease to exist.

 

What to do??? What to do???

 

Well apparently they carved out a few pieces and tried to throw them a bone. Mighty "generous" of them, offering back some scraps of their own land.

 

Some desert here, a corner there... Just slap a flag on it and call it a "state."

 

Not really what the Palestinians had in mind... but of course, they'd be wise to take what they can GET for now, and always bargain for more later. Because right now, they have nothing. Well except for a few concentration camps, run by the Israelis under Israeli control.

 

Sounds like Living to you?

 

As it stands now, the Palestinians are considered terrorists by most of the 'civilized' world even though they are fighting for their homeland and their right to exist. So hell yeah you guys need AWAKENING!!!

[samm]

See, you really are difficult to discuss with. You evade questions by stating (encased by / encasing insults) generally acknowledged things. And if this is really the reason for your perceived need to awaken us: No one who knows how to use his/her brain for a millisecond (i.e. not those who think muslim == extremist) thinks palestinians are essentialy terrorists. Ergo: There is no need to awaken us in the sense of the word defined by you.

[Meshugger]

Ok, now i have some time over to reflect on this. Here goes:

 

- I would like your(Yuusha's) opinion on what exactly seperates a west-jordan citizen from a palestinian? Especially since the west bank was called the trans-jordan area, a part of Jordan until 1967. The same goes with Gaza, it was a part of Egypt until 1967. What exactly seperated them as a national identity from the egyptians and the jordanians?

 

- You say that the ALL the palestinians were forcefully removed from their homes back in 1948, heck i agree that several were killed during this. But what about the arab coalition that said that they should free from their homes, so that the armed forces could frop the jews into the mediterranean sea more easily? In short, there were people 1) who were forced to flee, and 2) murdered by the jewish separatists, and 3) Volountarily left their homes until the Arab nations said that it was alright to return. Do you understand the implications of this? How difficult and a legal gray area this becomes?

 

- Do you agree that some jews actually bought the land legally, or even emigrated to parts of the land that were completely incultivated right? After a while, conflicts started, and people died in a borderlining civil war. Should've the jews NOT been given the right to buy or run any uncultivated land, because they were jews?

 

- When asking for a cease fire in the civil war, the jewish delegates ask the jordanese king for a solution. He only agrees on letting them to have a ghetto in Jerusalem, was that fair? Do you think that he even cared for a seperate palestinian state? Do you think that he cared for the palestinian people as a seperate national entity?

 

- Should the West Bank and Gaza be returned to Jordan and Egypt? If not, why?

 

I would like you to answer these questions without resorting to simple "yes/no"-aswers. Elaborate please. And now on to other issues you brought up:

 

- You say that it was a wonderful time for the countries occupied by the Ottomans, everyone could practice their own religion as they saw fit, and justice prevailed. Now, do you think that they enjoyed to pay dhimmi-tax? What about converting FROM islam to another religion, was that legal and most importantly, enforced by the fully extent of the law? And of course, why did all those countries fight for independence from the Ottomans?

 

- I see that you're from Indonesia. What's your opinion on what your goverment did to the East-Timorians back in the 1970's? Was that morally justifiable? In either case, please eloborate.

 

- Please answer my question about the Kurds and Assyrians as well.