old jedi order or new ?

[DeathScepter]

i don't used wikipedia. but the path of the dark side will lead to powers deemed unnatural.

[Bass-GameMaster]

Revan was never power-hungry! He did what had to be done to save the galaxy, and he is still doing that.

[Jediphile]

Revan was never power-hungry! He did what had to be done to save the galaxy, and he is still doing that.

 

Then why did he use his fleet created with the Starforge to wage war on the Republic instead of using it against the true Sith?

 

Your interpretation of Revan is not invalid, but that's just the point - it's an interpretation. And Revan is a hero or a villain depending on how the player chooses look at him and consequently play him... or her.

[DeathScepter]

althru i haven't read the Darth Bane's books, in it, there is a section of it that has Revan's holocron. It said that embracing the dark side and the power that comes with it and Power for power sake.

 

 

The only reason I don't have either of those books because I am broke but I am very aware of the contents.

 

Kreia, Mical and Goto are just interpating Revan's actions but none of them know what Revan knows really.

[I want teh kotor 3]

althru i haven't read the Darth Bane's books, in it, there is a section of it that has Revan's holocron. It said that embracing the dark side and the power that comes with it and Power for power sake.

 

 

The only reason I don't have either of those books because I am broke but I am very aware of the contents.

 

Kreia, Mical and Goto are just interpating Revan's actions but none of them know what Revan knows really.

 

Revan says that, in order to fully master the Dark Side, you must fully embrace and crave its power. If that happens, the DS will fundamentally change you. Therefore, Revan didn't just want power for power's sake (hypocrite) , because, if he did, he would never have been redeemed.

[DeathScepter]

thank you. I do think that there was some good in him but the point remains that he still wanted power.

 

The question is that when he did made the Holocron.

[I want teh kotor 3]

thank you. I do think that there was some good in him but the point remains that he still wanted power.

 

The question is that when he did made the Holocron.

 

 

Actually, my point was that he DIDN'T truely crave power because, if he did, he would not have been able to go back to LS.

[DeathScepter]

Jedi and Sith are quite similar. In their quest for greater power. The major difference between a Jedi and a Sith, it is how they using that said power. Jedi tend to be unselfish and Sith is selfish. I do see Revan becoming less selfish in his course of his redemption.

[Darth Clumber]

thank you. I do think that there was some good in him but the point remains that he still wanted power.

 

The question is that when he did made the Holocron.

 

 

Actually, my point was that he DIDN'T truely crave power because, if he did, he would not have been able to go back to LS.

 

The new Revan was completely different from the old Revan. Revan wasn't really redeamed, he just pretty much started over from scratch with a new chance. Events turned out differently this time and he became a different person than he did the last time. His current self was formed almost completely independantly from the influences of his former self.

[I want teh kotor 3]

If the DS "fundamenally changes you" like Revan himself said, it shouldn't matter. He was the same person, just suffering from amnesia.

[DeathScepter]

well to me, even if you get redeemed from the dark side, you will never be the same person before you going into the dark side. you will truly be a different person regardless of how sorry you really are. Dark Taint will always be a constant remind of type of dark sider you were. Dark side adds to your nature and makes you realizes how evil you really can be. Then again, Life always changes you thru experience.

[Jediphile]

I suppose the point is that redemption is a lasting dedication - Revan must strive for the rest of his life to repay for his evil deeds, as the debt can never be fully repaid. It is his dedication to this goal and accepting a life of servitude to the greater good that washes him of his sins. But he never reaches a point at which he has done enough and is let "off the hook".

 

At least, that's what I see in his redemption.

[Bass-GameMaster]

Or he could fail... and fall again...

[DeathScepter]

Even if Revan was the most perfect LS jedi in the universe, there will always someone wanting to kill him for what he did as a Sith Lord. Not everyone is forgiving as the Jedi supposly are.

[qt3.14159]

Wow... for some reason I'm inclined to shout out,

 

"Cast off the shoe and follow the gourd!"

 

Sorry, you can get back to your hair splitting now...

[Darth Clumber]

How did we get from old jedi vs new jedi to our current conversation about the redemption of Revan?

[DeathScepter]

well good question and this is the old jedi order vs new jedi order. So understanding their members will be key here.

[Darth Clumber]

I guess...

If Revan is counted as part of the old jedi order then there's really no argument who wins here. Revan was kind of a bit TOO powerful if you ask me, he can do anything! He's good with a lightsaber, strong in the force, a great swoop racer, a good technician (he built HK-47), a brilliant strategist (he completely turned around an entire war), a charismatic leader (recruiting all those Jedi for mando wars and jedi civil war), and he is incredibly knowledgable (he found the star forge, he was smart enough to avoid it's evil power, he knew about the true sith). Tell me ONE weakness this guy has! The only time he has been defeated was when Jedi were attacking him and his apprentice betrayed him at the same time.

[DSLuke]

I think than the likes or Revan, Exile and Jaden Korr should be left aside is such discussions.

All of them were video-game characters and as such they are overpowered for the shake of the gameplay.

[Jediphile]

I guess...

If Revan is counted as part of the old jedi order then there's really no argument who wins here. Revan was kind of a bit TOO powerful if you ask me, he can do anything! He's good with a lightsaber, strong in the force, a great swoop racer, a good technician (he built HK-47), a brilliant strategist (he completely turned around an entire war), a charismatic leader (recruiting all those Jedi for mando wars and jedi civil war), and he is incredibly knowledgable (he found the star forge, he was smart enough to avoid it's evil power, he knew about the true sith). Tell me ONE weakness this guy has!

 

Overconfidence. He thought he could wield the dark side like a weapon and not be touched by it. But like Ulic before him and Luke later, he found it doesn't work that way. Yes, I know Kreia rationalises that Revan never fell, because his fall was a sacrifice, a choice, more than anything, but for one thing, she is scarcely an impartial source as Revan's proud master, and if Revan did it all just to save the Republic and never fell in any way, then why did he use his fleet to attack the Republic? I would agree he still did it all to save the Republic from the true Sith, but the dark side of the force has a tendency to twist the goals of those it lures to it. In Revan's case it was by lure him to think that he could only save the Republic by defeating it and then building it into a stronger entity. In doing so it made him harm the very thing he started out trying to protect.

 

Not sure all the above applies, though. Revan is a good swoop racer depending on how you play him in K1, and he is only a good technician if you build those skills too. He may been HK-47's creator, but I'm less certain he actually built the unit or had someone else built it for him. Somehow I can't picture Revan setting aside time to built a new droid from scratch while he is leading a war effort with the Republic's future hanging in the balance.

 

I also don't think we know he's that great a lightsaber duelist. He killed Yusanis and Mandalore, sure, but they weren't jedi or sith and do not wield the force like Revan did. As for finding the Starforge and learning of the true Sith, the latter definitely was due to him going to the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, and maybe the former is too. By going there, Revan gained access to ancient lore long forgotten even by the sith. An unfair advantage, perhaps, but then it cost him enough, since that is where he fell to the dark side. Regardless, I don't see this makes him smarter than everybody else.

 

If we know anything, then it is that Revan must be charismatic to be able to entice so many jedi to his cause that he split the order in defiance of the council, and that he must be a good strategist because he is so admired as such by the Mandalorians. And I'll grant him some elements of wisdom too, since he was insightful enough to resist using the Starforge without limitation and so become a slave to it.

 

But otherwise I don't see Revan as that incredible. Lots of people have a take on Revan that to me seems vastly exaggerated to the point of Revan being a virtually invincible, unstoppable, omniscient, omnipotent force god. Given that these people all play Revan in first game, that smells unhealthily like a bad case of Narcissus to me

 

Don't get me wrong. I like Revan, and I enjoyed playing him. I think he is an excellent strategist and charismatic leader, who is probably also one of the powerful force-users of his era. But that's as far as it goes for me.

 

The only time he has been defeated was when Jedi were attacking him and his apprentice betrayed him at the same time.

 

How many other times were he attacked that we know of?

[babydol]

The only time he has been defeated was when Jedi were attacking him and his apprentice betrayed him at the same time.

 

Meh... shoulda seen that coming.

 

Maybe Revan WANTED to be caught? It's not very obvious from K1, but in K2, Kreia got me thinking that Revan had all these hidden agendas... started the Mandalorian wars to SAVE the Republic and whatnot... who knows? Maybe this was Revan's plot all along to follow the light again...

 

And speaking of Mandalorian

- Just to lighten the mood. Edited June 13, 2008 by babydol

[DeathScepter]

well I do believe that Revan is not so powerful in the force as creative uses of the force. If a force user can use only one force power, If he is truly creative and knowledgeable, he will use that force power in several different ways.

 

 

 

For example, Telekineses is a normal force power to master. There are three force power trees that are solely base on Telekineses, Force Kill, Force Wave and Advanced Throw Lightsaber.

 

 

I do remember somewhere in Kotor 1 or somewhere else, that Even Exar kun is stronger in the force than Revan.

 

 

I do think due to Revan's intelligence, I do think he developed an arrogance streek. There is a major difference an accompished Jedi and a Mary Sue. At least in my eyes.

 

 

 

Revan is an accompished Jedi.

 

 

Where as if He was a Mary Sue, He would defeated the Mandalorians and the True Sith Empire with the Jedi Council permission in one battle without losing anyone. And Carth, Juhani, and Bastila would be madly inlove with him/er regardless of gender because he would be so fraking beautiful and charming. Also everyone else would be too. Also there will be no need of the Star Forge.

[Bass-GameMaster]

The only time he has been defeated was when Jedi were attacking him and his apprentice betrayed him at the same time.

 

Meh... shoulda seen that coming.

 

Maybe Revan WANTED to be caught? It's not very obvious from K1, but in K2, Kreia got me thinking that Revan had all these hidden agendas... started the Mandalorian wars to SAVE the Republic and whatnot... who knows? Maybe this was Revan's plot all along to follow the light again...

 

And speaking of Mandalorian

- Just to lighten the mood.

actually that is the only thing revan didnt plan.. It was a huge setback, thank Bastilla she might seem like some Jedi pacifist but she can hold her own in both combat and romance, not that you could tell because the screen went black

[Albion72]

Topic One/Question: How much did George Lucas actually write beyond the six films?

 

 

Topic Two/Theory: There has been an ongoing discussion about which Jedi order was more powerful. Call me crazy but I think the new Jedi Order (after the first Purge by the Sith Triumvirate) is more powerful. Bare with me, I will state me reasons now.

 

 

BEFORE YOU READ: I am in no way trying to be a movie fanboi. I am just stating why I think the new Jedi order is also as powerful as the old. I love KOTOR I and II, they are my favorite games!

 

Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

 

We see many examples of Jedi abilities here that we've seen in KOTOR I and II.

 

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan must use breath control in order to save them selves from dioxes (sp?), the gas that the Trade Federation floods into their guest room. Wookieepedia has stated (with citations from Kreia) that few Jedi have mastered Breath Control, but the ones who have could hold their breath for hours and even days. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are two Jedi who had a relatively typical Jedi life - no epic teachings of any sort.

 

Later on in the movie we see the pair of Jedi run from Droidekas. Watch this seen again and you will notice their extreme running speed. (Comparable to Knight Speed and its enhancements from KOTOR I and II).

 

You will obviously not see force aura, energy shield, etc in a movie because that would just look silly and many fans would be disgruntled (I didn't think Lucas would have a purple stasis field around people!- Type reactions).

 

 

Star Wars Episode II: The Clone Wars

 

I can't say much as I haven't seen this movie for quite some time because it was sadly RIPPED OFF by someone I trusted. Weird.

 

 

Star Wars Episode III: The Revenge of the Sith:

 

This film was more about the downfall of the Republic and the death of the Jedi rather than Jedi/Sith powers. However, a Jedi's powers would have been useless in Sidious' brilliantly orchestrated plan. The people the Jedi trusted the most during the war turned on them in an instant, so however strong they may have been would have been useless.

 

When this movie came out I became interested in Mace Windu. I read the wookieepedia article on him and found some most interesting details. He was indeed a very powerful Jedi, creating his own lightsaber art and having a very strong connection to the force.

 

Yoda is able to deflect Palpatine's Senate Chair Disks, and Yoda can also absorb Force Lightning with bare hands, something you don't see in KOTOR I or II.

 

Other than these moments, the movie focuses more on Lightsaber combat, which I can't blame them. Most fans really love the lightsaber combat, I do.

 

 

Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

 

Darth Vader deflects blaster fire with no lightsaber, a power in KOTOR II (not sure about I). This power is still around.

 

 

Reading various Wookieepedia articles on individual members of the new Jedi Order (Read the USUALLY titled "Powers and Abilities" section for all the info) has led me to believe that every power from KOTOR I and II has made it into the New Jedi Order, and is being used... we just can't see it through the mask of film making.

 

Discuss.

[Bass-GameMaster]

George did everything in the movies. And the discussion of the orders belongs in the "old or new order" topic