we're going to need guns

[Walsingham]

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...15&start=15

 

Comment by Tale here, complaining about generic-ness of guns in FPS. I was wondering WHY guns are similar in the far distant galaxy of Booblyboo, and it occurred to me that this is because weapons are essentially the same. They deliver to an object in such a way that the object is incapable of absorbing/transmuting/reflecting the energy. Within those constraints you really have only a finite number of options.

 

1. A single maximised delivery, optimised for either range, or delivery (sniper or slugger)

2. A wide array attack, either rapidity of the above or a diffused delivery (mahine gun or shotgun)

3. An all round detonation, delivered by hand or secondary force

4. Various armour piercing versions of the above.

 

You can have a wide array of mechanical means of exciting the energy, burt really it always boils down to the above.

 

True or false?

[Sand]

You do have a good point there Walsh, a gun is a gun. Of course aliens may have moved on from guns and use psionic empowered crystals... which could be gun shaped if they have similar manipulator digits/hands.

[Tale]

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...15&start=15

 

Comment by Tale here, complaining about generic-ness of guns in FPS. I was wondering WHY guns are similar in the far distant galaxy of Booblyboo, and it occurred to me that this is because weapons are essentially the same. They deliver to an object in such a way that the object is incapable of absorbing/transmuting/reflecting the energy. Within those constraints you really have only a finite number of options.

 

1. A single maximised delivery, optimised for either range, or delivery (sniper or slugger)

2. A wide array attack, either rapidity of the above or a diffused delivery (mahine gun or shotgun)

3. An all round detonation, delivered by hand or secondary force

4. Various armour piercing versions of the above.

 

You can have a wide array of mechanical means of exciting the energy, burt really it always boils down to the above.

 

True or false?

 

I wasn't complaining about the generic-ness of guns in FPS. I was complaining about the generic-ness of guns in a particular FPS. It's like the difference between an archetype and a cliche. If I pick up a weird ass looking weapon, think to myself "wow, this looks cool, I wonder what it does" and all it does it fire a spread of pellets whose only differentiation from your standard shotgun is that they're yellow, it's a bit underwhelming. This is what is experienced in Prey.

 

Contrast this with Half-Life's "Sniper Rifle," the cross bow. It's different because of drop off and travel time. It fits the archetype and the role, but it doesn't fit the cliche. The Tau cannon, another fan favorite, also behaves differently from what one expects of a sniper rifle. But, it still can be considered to fit the same role. There was also a weapon I recall from Unreal Tournament 2003 that behaved much like a shotgun. It's pellet spread was a bit more diverse. And it included a secondary fire that was inventive. Some sort of cluster attack that when it hit something, THEN fired the pellets.

 

It's not roles, it's behavior. You define roles, my complaint with Prey was behavior.

[Nick_i_am]

Look at the Peditor.

 

Sholder Cannon, spear gun, disk launcher, wrist claws.

 

unique in presintation, generic in use.

 

Lets face it, that's going to be the case across the board were you point the business end of somthing at a bad guy and make it go bang, vop or splat.

 

Where it gets more interesting is notions such as HL2s gravity gun and the Portal gun, which change the way a gun is used and, as such, the way that the game is played. And thats the point here, the way the game is played, anything else is just skin.

[Sand]

Agreed. Its not the gun that is the issue, but how the gun is used during the course of the game. If the devs can come up with innovative ways to make a gun more useful than just killing baddies it could provide more interesting gameplay.

[Nick_i_am]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7091904.stm

 

guns can do anything!

[Sand]

Even dogs need to learn proper gun use: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7068549.stm

[Kaftan Barlast]

Guns are all the same because spacy-alien guns suck. I dont want a plegm-hurler or an acid-spitter or a friggin pseudopod. There is nothing as satisfying and appealing as a shotgun blast to the face or a large-bore sniper round through the chest, and that is one of the great truths of game design. Desintegrating your opponent itno molecules is NOT as satisfying as blowing him into burnt chunks with a good ol explosion.

[Fenghuang]

Look at the Peditor.

 

Sholder Cannon, spear gun, disk launcher, wrist claws.

 

unique in presintation, generic in use.

 

Lets face it, that's going to be the case across the board were you point the business end of somthing at a bad guy and make it go bang, vop or splat.

 

Where it gets more interesting is notions such as HL2s gravity gun and the Portal gun, which change the way a gun is used and, as such, the way that the game is played. And thats the point here, the way the game is played, anything else is just skin.

 

Nick I am going to have to disagree with you there.

 

This is expected since I've already put myself in the camp of being a huge fan of the AvP games before, but the energy and vision constraints put on you by the Predtech weapons made them pretty unique in execution. Also I haven't played too many FPS games with spears.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Also, the gravity gun is not the least bit interesting. Its just a compromise because it was too difficult to have the characters actually grip objects and toss them with their hands. It would be fine, except Valve seem to think its the shiznitz and thus forces you to use the damn thing all the time.

[mkreku]

...in the far distant galaxy of Booblyboo...

There's a whole galaxy full of boobs and I wasn't invited?!

[Pidesco]

It's pretty forked up in Bioshock where you can't grab anything with your hands, but you can with telekinesis.

[Pop]

Also, the gravity gun is not the least bit interesting. Its just a compromise because it was too difficult to have the characters actually grip objects and toss them with their hands. It would be fine, except Valve seem to think its the shiznitz and thus forces you to use the damn thing all the time.

I know. I was playing through HL2 firing cinder blocks at people a few hundred yards away and "jumping" cars and all I could think was "Why wouldn't they let me do this with my hands? This sux!"

[Kaftan Barlast]

It's way cooler in Crysis where you can pickup anything from beer bottles to container or people and hurl them at the enemy or just for fun. But that doesnt mean I like half the game to be about throwing things or putting things on top of other things.

 

 

 

..and the portal gun is not a gun, its a teleportation device

[Gorth]

In the good old days, my graviton armed tech-priest used to rule the battlefield.

 

What we need is some good old 40k Eldar guns. D-Cannon for the win

 

Vibro cannons and Doom Weavers are nice too, except as an IG player, I used to be on the receiving end of them :ninja10:

 

Still, would make some interesting FPS weapons.

[Nick_i_am]

That would be an awsome argument if it wasn't possible to pick stuff up with your hands in HL2.

 

Which it is.

 

Nick I am going to have to disagree with you there.

 

This is expected since I've already put myself in the camp of being a huge fan of the AvP games before, but the energy and vision constraints put on you by the Predtech weapons made them pretty unique in execution. Also I haven't played too many FPS games with spears.

 

Oh, yeah, the weapons were awsome, and I loved the different vision types for facing different hostiles, focing you to specialise. The point was that while it was great having all of these in such a unique package and arangement, each one, on its own, is still pretty generic when it comes to guns in games and their roles. In terms of their effects, all those guns could easily fit into a Turok game (which also has a very nice selection of firearms), and people wouldn't even bat an eyelid. Though come to think of it, Turok was another game with 'generic' weapons that were still damned fun to use.

 

But yeah, you're right, great game with some great weapons in it.

[Walsingham]

...in the far distant galaxy of Booblyboo...

There's a whole galaxy full of boobs and I wasn't invited?!

 

...I am worse off, I had been invited but then they threw me out!

 

Anyway, glad I raised this. I see what you mean about style being important, rather than just function. Little pecadillos in style make all the differencee. In the same way that trousers have been trousers for the last 100 years, but a-line flared trousers with pockets in the knees are a novelty. My point about there being, say kinetic melee weapons is true, but tonking something with a sledgehammer is tactically basically the same as a sword, but still somehow more entertaining.

 

The D-gun point also made me think that you're talking about a whole class of 'weapons' that work by altering the characteristics of a thing, to make it heavier, or lighter (how hilarious would that be? Zapping some cyborg and see it bob off into the air like a balloon at the State fair?). You could strengthen molecular bonds to make things tougher, but less animate, or weaken the same bonds to release their energy and make them explode!

[Nick_i_am]

Or fire a little drill that homes in on their head then eats their brain.

 

<3<3 Ceribal Bore.

[Walsingham]

Having 'effectors' [iain M Banks] which altered physical characteristics would permit real showing off with a physics engine.