Yeah, we're pretty much on the same page. I think the reasoning behind what the Aliens do should remain a complete mystery. We should never have any idea what motivates them beyond a desire to kill us and create more of themselves.

 

Let blizzard make StarCraft 2 and then folks can kill zerg at will.

Even the really cool ideas can take a good amount of strength from the aliens. Left on the cutting room floor of the original Alien was the drone, somehow by himself, having egged the captured crew members. Part, if not all, of this scene was restored for the Director's Cut (which is actually more of an extended edition as Ridley prefers the original.

 

The point I am making is the introduction of the queen weakened the aliens in this regard. Whether or not all of them were meant to be capable of egging or it was simply a mystery to us, they were stronger for that. Many non-film materials (games, novels, and comics) ultimately have the characters seek out the queen to kill it and voila, disaster averted.

 

Do not get me wrong, I love the queen and am glad it exists. And I know Meta argued earlier that weaknesses, which I consider a dependence on a queen to be, help make the creatures. However, I feel that anything that makes the aliens stronger is ultimately better material with things that make them weaker being worse material. Like the other two posters are pointing out, mystery and strength on the aliens side contributes to their horror factor and their mystique. It's what makes us like them. I'd like to see some of that actually expand!

 

For example: What the queen does have going for it, is outside of [at least some of the] comics, it's not really known how a queen comes about. Alien 3 told us they were born, but there's still room to add mystery to that, I think. It would be nice if the strength derived from the mystery of the creation of the eggs was returned by making the queen anything from easily replaced to unnecessary but helpful. That would probably be beyond the scope of what Obsidian can do, but it's an example of the kind of thing I'd like to see coming from the franchise in the future. More mystery and a contradiction of the things we think we know.

I think after so much exposure the next step has to be exploring more of the social interaction of the Alien species, even if it just means that they wind up surprising us and doing something other than what we expect.

 

I'm not talking about an Alien sitcom here, but about the kinds of hive events that have been hinted at. If you don't take it to the next level you run the risk

of stagnation. Do we really want just a repeat of other games, I think not, it's definately time to move on.

 

The sheer mystery is gone now. It can't be reclaimed.

I continue to reflect on the power of Lovecraft when he never explained the mechanics of the horror ... only insinuated possibilities that MIGHT fit into our ability to comprehend ... which leaves us with does science answer or lead to more questions?

But, we know the Alien spcies a little too well know I think, we still need to be surprised in some way about their capacity. The other surprises that have been tried involving 'super queens' and 'super aliens' were a silly departure to me. We should never be let in on the motivations of the Alien, but there are many possibilities in exploring how they deal with challenges as a singleminded group entity.

The anthopology of the Alien species can leave as many new questions open as it answers, I guess is what i'm getting at, and it would be worthwhile.

... [O]verdone elaborations and trivialisations of horrors are bad for suspense. Once something that caused terror becomes familiar and "quantifiable", it's just a question of finding the right tool and strategy to combat it. Fear becomes less of a factor. It may be a one-shot wonder to get attention for a release: "Aliens exposed! Read all about it in todays issue!" but it makes it hard to keep up any interest afterwards. One reason why I think creating comics for popular franchises is a sucky idea.

Valid point but, as Gorgon said, it's a little late to play the mystery card.

I think after so much exposure the next step has to be exploring more of the social interaction of the Alien species, even if it just means that they wind up surprising us and doing something other than what we expect.

 

I'm not talking about an Alien sitcom here, but about the kinds of hive events that have been hinted at. If you don't take it to the next level you run the risk

of stagnation. Do we really want just a repeat of other games, I think not, it's definately time to move on.

 

The sheer mystery is gone now. It can't be reclaimed.

Secondly, the whole point of a roleplaying game is a journey of discovery to overcome a seemingly unbeatable enemy, though research and (targeted) improvement (from the research).

 

That said, there is no reason why the xenomorphs can't change, adapt and evolve.

 

Yeah, we're pretty much on the same page. I think the reasoning behind what the Aliens do should remain a complete mystery. We should never have any idea what motivates them beyond a desire to kill us and create more of themselves.

Again, what you desire is not mutally exclusive from what we are talking about in this topic. The PC doesn't need to know why some xenomorphs seem to attack others (they don't even have to look/sound/smell/whatever different).

 

Even the really cool ideas can take a good amount of strength from the aliens. Left on the cutting room floor of the original Alien was the drone, somehow by himself, having egged the captured crew members. Part, if not all, of this scene was restored for the Director's Cut (which is actually more of an extended edition as Ridley prefers the original.

 

The point I am making is the introduction of the queen weakened the aliens in this regard. Whether or not all of them were meant to be capable of egging or it was simply a mystery to us, they were stronger for that. Many non-film materials (games, novels, and comics) ultimately have the characters seek out the queen to kill it and voila, disaster averted.

 

Do not get me wrong, I love the queen and am glad it exists. And I know Meta argued earlier that weaknesses, which I consider a dependence on a queen to be, help make the creatures. However, I feel that anything that makes the aliens stronger is ultimately better material with things that make them weaker being worse material. Like the other two posters are pointing out, mystery and strength on the aliens side contributes to their horror factor and their mystique. It's what makes us like them. I'd like to see some of that actually expand!

 

For example: What the queen does have going for it, is outside of [at least some of the] comics, it's not really known how a queen comes about. Alien 3 told us they were born, but there's still room to add mystery to that, I think. It would be nice if the strength derived from the mystery of the creation of the eggs was returned by making the queen anything from easily replaced to unnecessary but helpful. That would probably be beyond the scope of what Obsidian can do, but it's an example of the kind of thing I'd like to see coming from the franchise in the future. More mystery and a contradiction of the things we think we know.

This can be explained as a strength of the xenomorphs. It's hardly a stretch to believe that a parasitic organism that evolves from its host would NOT be able to morph from a drone into a queen. (In termite and ant colonies, a strict and precarious balance of different roles is maintained: if a soldier is killed, for example, another drone will pick up a pheromone command and grow to be a replacement. AFAIK this doesn't normally extend to the queen, as I think the haplodiploidic reproduction process allows for it ... but there is no reason that a female (i.e. not altered) drone could take the place of egg-layer.)

 

I think, once again, that this isn't mutually exclusive of two rival queens: I doubt it is a reversible process for a queen to become a drone.

 

I continue to reflect on the power of Lovecraft when he never explained the mechanics of the horror ... only insinuated possibilities that MIGHT fit into our ability to comprehend ... which leaves us with does science answer or lead to more questions?

There's no shame in having science unable to answer questions.

 

"Dark Matter" and "Dark Energy" are two such modern cases in point: once science understands why the universe doesn't act according to the know four interactions (strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravitational), without having to tack on 70% more matter that we can't see, and 75% more of everything in the form of an Energy that we can't detect, then science will probably have a new physics theory, and the quaint notions of Einstein will be relegated to "classical" times, just as Euclid and Newton have been.

 

So, just because the xenomorphs do something, we don't necessarily need to know how ... or maybe we know how but not why, or not how but why. There are all sorts of ways to play it. Also, science is all about factions itself: it's more political that the UN, with rock-star scientists having fans of their theories, others taking credit for stuff that isn't their work (and even knowingly hurting the true crafters), etc.

 

Complex subjects can give conflicting and even counter-intuitive results. This can be added to a narrative to add depth, without revealing the man behind the curtain.

Secondly, the whole point of a roleplaying game is a journey of discovery to overcome a seemingly unbeatable enemy, though research and (targeted) improvement (from the research).

 

That's the absolute first I have EVER heard of that. KOTOR doesn't fit that, KOTOR 2 doesn't fit that. Baldur's Gate I, II, and Throne of Bhaal don't fit that. Fallout doesn't fit that, Torment doesn't fit that. Neverwinter Nights 2 was like that, but it's the only one that comes to mind. I have to wonder what it was that caused you to somehow get that description as their is seemingly little (popular) evidence to support it.

 

KOTOR did have a journey of discovery, but it was personal discovery. You didn't find out anything overly special about Malak or the Star Forge. Much the same for KOTOR 2, it is personal discovery as the primary device.

 

Baldur's Gate was, once again, more about personal discovery. And the few revelations about Sarevok were meaningless towards defeating him. Did he seem unbeatable? Never. Did merely finding out he's a half brother and Koveras allow you to improve anything? No. Much is the same of Irenicus as he never seemed unbeatable, just powerful and evasive. Finding out he's originally an elf did nothing to contribute to the roleplaying or defeating him. Melissan? Not knowing the truth about her was what even made the game.

 

"The whole point" of a roleplaying game is roleplaying. It's about creating a character, in more than just a skillset but personality, and playing out that character. The adventure aspect that accompanies many RPGs is similar to what you say in that they are always journeys, but only sometime in the nature of the journey you describe.

 

Edit: The only way I can think to interpret your statement so it seems applicable to most computer RPGs is if by it's all meant to be applied more to yourself, discovery of the self. Which requires absolutely nothing about knowing more intimate detail about the enemy.

Edited June 11, 200718 yr by Tale

Um, I was more generally talking about the development of the character; the PC becomes a higher level >whatever< and this is woven into the plot in some way.

 

Typically the PC needs some artifact, too.

 

Though I was more making the general point.

Though I was more making the general point.

Your mother!

 

 

I need to be careful around you, Meta. You have a tendancy to say stuff and I have a tendency to mistake it for relating to the topic at hand, at which point I argue like I know what I'm talking about (even though I don't).

Edited June 11, 200718 yr by Tale

Typically the PC needs some artifact, too.

Play Darkstar One and I guarantee you'll never say that again.

Typically the PC needs some artifact, too.

You need to find the four objects, scattered around the base, necessary to make the holy flamethrower that will progress you to the next module.

 

I still think understanding and enligtenment are the sworn enemies of fear and xenophobia. We need to get rid of them as much as possible. They can always play the amnesia card, you wake up on a slab in the lab, with no knowledge of what is happening around you. Leave little clues on computers and scientists journals scattered around...

 

Ok, bad idea. I am actually curious to see how Obsidian intends to pull this one off, as it, at least on paper, isn't a setting suited for roleplaying, more like horror/survival type action games.

 

Thing is just, when you want to "scare" people, peoples own imagination is the best tool. A case of less is more, which also goes for knowledge of the alien species, their behaviour, what makes them tick etc.

 

(which is really just a repetition of my previous post, reworded slightly. I need to work on my originality)

 

Edit: I've been playing too much Necromunda

Edited June 12, 200718 yr by Gorth

Typically the PC needs some artifact, too.

You need to find the four objects, scattered around the base, necessary to make the holy flamethrower that will progress you to the next module.

 

I still think understanding and enligtenment are the sworn enemies of fear and xenophobia. We need to get rid of them as much as possible. They can always play the amnesia card, you wake up on a slab in the lab, with no knowledge of what is happening around you. Leave little clues on computers and scientists journals scattered around...

 

Ok, bad idea. I am actually curious to see how Obsidian intends to pull this one off, as it, at least on paper, isn't a setting suited for roleplaying, more like horror/survival type action games.

 

Thing is just, when you want to "scare" people, peoples own imagination is the best tool. A case of less is more, which also goes for knowledge of the alien species, their behaviour, what makes them tick etc.

 

(which is really just a repetition of my previous post, reworded slightly. I need to work on my originality)

 

Edit: I've been playing too much Necromunda

 

I imagine the character will come to a place and attempts to find out the location of the hive/layout of the place/sequence of events leading to infestation.

I don't know, but I'd be surprised if the story hadn't already been written. I don't know if Sawyer is the creative lead or someone else, but you'd think they'd've hashed out most of the details by now. So we're probably all arguing for nothing. Welcome to the internet.

 

I don't think they should broaden the franchise. I don't even think they should think about broadening the franchise. They should go back to the roots and do something more along the lines of Alien with a little Aliens thrown into the mix. Don't worry about what everyone knows. If they can capture the feeling of the first couple of films, which were the best ones anyhow, then the die hards will accept the game. It will be a lot more accesible to the non-die hards. Then, when they do a sequel, if they do a sequel, they can flesh out the story and become more adventurous. As it stands now, I don't see whay they have to gain by creating factions out of the Aliens. It sounds like a pie in the sky notion.

 

Aliens sucks as the basis for an RPG. Gorth has it entirely right. It might make for a good action FPS horror game, but the enemy is too powerful for a real RPG. It's like creating a party of first level characters and then sending them out to fight a colony of red dragons before they reach level 8. I'm sure some smart ass can give me an example of why that isn't ludicrous, but it is ludicrous. This isn't a game about winning. It's a game about losing with style. It's a game about being the last person alive on the spaceship, jettisoning the Aliens, and finding out that it didn't really work anyhow and you've never escaped.

 

The Alien franchise is really no different than any other horror film with an unbeatable enemy, from the Blob to the Thing. We can't win. The ending of the game can only reinforce that fact. Once we've entered the universe of Aliens, we're goners.

 

So cut this creative look at the Aliens breeding habits and produce a good, solid gaming experience that hearkens back to the unblemished Alien of the first film. How the hell you'll make it an RPG is beyond me, but I'm sure you guys can do it. ...Or not. I dunno. Aliens as latter day honey bees fighting with each other over interstellar aphids? Make sure you give us fair warning if that's the direction you're going to take. With all respect, meta, I like a lot of your ideas, but I can't buy into this one.

If we take in everything seen in comics, games and films we can come up with a few factions -

 

Normal Blacks

Reds

K-Series

Mutated Clones

Predator Grown

 

And for humans -

Marines

Mercinaries

Weyland Yutani

Randomly thought up company rival

Beserker teams...

 

...the list could go on.

Mutated Clones is well and all, but OE needs to take it to the next level...Mutated Clowns! Now that would be a whole new level of awesome driving fear into the hearts of the Xenoborgs themselves!

Tale... you realize that your version of the aliens would have players wandering around an area meeting maybe one or two Drones and killing them before he finishes with the entire area. Simply because the players and aliens couldn't be balanced properly without either turning the player into a Starship Troopers esque marine.

 

Cants thought that most of the Xenos should be shrouded in mystery is good.... but at least have a little exposition about say, the fact that they are giant bugs with acidic blood and so on and so forth.

Though I was more making the general point.

Your mother!

 

I need to be careful around you, Meta. You have a tendency to say stuff and I have a tendency to mistake it for relating to the topic at hand, at which point I argue like I know what I'm talking about (even though I don't).

Yes, it's true. This man has no Peck.

 

I don't know, but I'd be surprised if the story hadn't already been written. I don't know if Sawyer is the creative lead or someone else, but you'd think they'd've hashed out most of the details by now. So we're probably all arguing for nothing. Welcome to the internet.

 

I don't think they should broaden the franchise. I don't even think they should think about broadening the franchise. They should go back to the roots and do something more along the lines of Alien with a little Aliens thrown into the mix. Don't worry about what everyone knows. If they can capture the feeling of the first couple of films, which were the best ones anyhow, then the die hards will accept the game. It will be a lot more accesible to the non-die hards. Then, when they do a sequel, if they do a sequel, they can flesh out the story and become more adventurous. As it stands now, I don't see whay they have to gain by creating factions out of the Aliens. It sounds like a pie in the sky notion.

 

Aliens sucks as the basis for an RPG. Gorth has it entirely right. It might make for a good action FPS horror game, but the enemy is too powerful for a real RPG. It's like creating a party of first level characters and then sending them out to fight a colony of red dragons before they reach level 8. I'm sure some smart ass can give me an example of why that isn't ludicrous, but it is ludicrous. This isn't a game about winning. It's a game about losing with style. It's a game about being the last person alive on the spaceship, jettisoning the Aliens, and finding out that it didn't really work anyhow and you've never escaped.

 

The Alien franchise is really no different than any other horror film with an unbeatable enemy, from the Blob to the Thing. We can't win. The ending of the game can only reinforce that fact. Once we've entered the universe of Aliens, we're goners.

 

So cut this creative look at the Aliens breeding habits and produce a good, solid gaming experience that hearkens back to the unblemished Alien of the first film. How the hell you'll make it an RPG is beyond me, but I'm sure you guys can do it. ...Or not. I dunno. Aliens as latter day honey bees fighting with each other over interstellar aphids? Make sure you give us fair warning if that's the direction you're going to take. With all respect, meta, I like a lot of your ideas, but I can't buy into this one.

Aha, at last something to talk about.

 

It's worth remembering that Alien was a horror film, and Aliens an action film. It remains to be seen whether Obsidian will be making an action-RPG, or a horror-RPG. (Yes, I know they're calling it an action-RPG.)

 

I would vote for the horror-themed game. It doesn't need to be survival-horror, though that would work, too. I'm just playing Thief at the moment, and the game mechanic is that the PC cannot take on any of the NPCs in a fair fight. Sneaking is essential (which is true even for

Mutated Clones is well and all, but OE needs to take it to the next level...Mutated Clowns! Now that would be a whole new level of awesome driving fear into the hearts of the Xenoborgs themselves!

 

Good Lord, this was funny. I was busting a gut.

Mutated Clones is well and all, but OE needs to take it to the next level...Mutated Clowns! Now that would be a whole new level of awesome driving fear into the hearts of the Xenoborgs themselves!

 

Good Lord, this was funny. I was busting a gut.

Yeah, in my zeal to answer all the silly points that you were posting, I completely forgot to register my laughing at this, too.

Ah, you've out lasted me, meta. With the game this far out in the future, only time will tell what to expect.

I suspect that a lot of what we are talking about has been included (design the story arc, then explain it in the franchise assets) ... perhaps our ministrations might make that job less perilous. Just maybe they might even add something that hadn't occurred to them from the rambling nonsense we write here in this forum.

Well, at least you got the rambling nonsense part right. Alien factions, ideed!

I can't get over the fact that you like having a Grue. You could always install the Zorks and just globally search and replace the word "Grue" with "Alien".

Now you are talking

 

 

Who needs orthodox aliens vs. reformed aliens when you can have the ubiquitous grue?

I love grues. Plus, you could see grues. You just couldn't see them in the ZORK trilogy. HA! Go look up that one, smartenheimer.

 

I love the ZORK I banner. Man, does that bring back memories!

 

If this Alien CRPG can compete with ZORK, then Obsidz will have done a worthy job.