The shape of things to come

[Calax]

"no ties to Al Qaeda"

 

This isn't true. They surely had *some* ties.

R00fles!

And the US government probably had ties to it in *some* way...

[Walsingham]

"no ties to Al Qaeda"

 

This isn't true. They surely had *some* ties.

 

 

"So where and when did the Iraqi military attacked America just prior our invasion?"

 

*shrug* Were'nt the Iraqis in the habit of shooting at the US (and British) planes patrolling the Kurdish areas?

 

R00fles!

 

Volo has a point here. The ceasefire had been broken on numerous occasions. Ask any pilot who was posted there during the 'peace'. The Italians also participated under the UN aegis. One more argument (not used) to support the legality of the invasion, since a break in the ceasefire terms merely reactivates the original conflict.

 

GD, what about Okinawa? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

 

Somewhat remiss of you to forget one of the hardest fought battles in your history. Not to mention the battle that gives the lie to the notion that the Japanese would have surrendered without the H bomb.

[Volourn]

"And the US government probably had ties to it in *some* way... "

 

What's your point? Nobody claimed otherwise. It's irrelevant, and means absolutely squat as it doesn't nullify my point.

[Calax]

"And the US government probably had ties to it in *some* way... "

 

What's your point? Nobody claimed otherwise. It's irrelevant, and means absolutely squat as it doesn't nullify my point.

using your reasoning we should invade ourselves for having *some* ties to al qaeda

[Walsingham]

"And the US government probably had ties to it in *some* way... "

 

What's your point? Nobody claimed otherwise. It's irrelevant, and means absolutely squat as it doesn't nullify my point.

using your reasoning we should invade ourselves for having *some* ties to al qaeda

 

You can't deny the convenience of invading a country you are already in.

[Volourn]

"using your reasoning we should invade ourselves for having *some* ties to al qaeda"

 

A. You can't really 'invade' yourself.

 

B. That's just silly talk.

 

C. The US and coalition didn't invade Iraq because of Iraq's ties (however tight or loose they were); but for a multitude of othere reasons (the big one being Iraq being an enemy, and a threat to Amerikan and co's interests). Afghanistan was the country invaded due to their rulers directl and absolutely confirmed link and refusal to hand over AQ.

 

Two compltely different scenarios though the Iraq war would likely not have happened - at leats on the time table it did - had it not been for 9/11 (however, Iraq itself had nothing to do diretcly or even likely non directly with 9/11).

[Guard Dog]

GD, what about Okinawa? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

 

Somewhat remiss of you to forget one of the hardest fought battles in your history. Not to mention the battle that gives the lie to the notion that the Japanese would have surrendered without the H bomb.

Yup, you got me there Wals. Okinawa was annexed by Japan in the late 1600's so it was Japanese soil. I was actually stationed there in 1991-1992. Pretty nice place, my favorite in Asia as a matter of fact.

 

Anyway, to reiterate, I had no point to make there. I just thought it was funny.

 

Man, I wish I could find some Okinawan style yaka-soba and Orion beer in the States!

[Sand]

I just don't buy it, Volourn. There was no justification for the United States to invade Iraq. Iraq was under control and contained by the UN. Iraq is a waste of American money and American lives.

[Walsingham]

I just don't buy it, Volourn. There was no justification for the United States to invade Iraq. Iraq was under control and contained by the UN. Iraq is a waste of American money and American lives.

 

Under control and contained? Then I suppose the thousands starving and denied medical care, not to mention the hundreds of thousands killed in genocidal acts are the UN's fault?

[Walsingham]

GD, what about Okinawa? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

 

Somewhat remiss of you to forget one of the hardest fought battles in your history. Not to mention the battle that gives the lie to the notion that the Japanese would have surrendered without the H bomb.

Yup, you got me there Wals. Okinawa was annexed by Japan in the late 1600's so it was Japanese soil. I was actually stationed there in 1991-1992. Pretty nice place, my favorite in Asia as a matter of fact.

 

Anyway, to reiterate, I had no point to make there. I just thought it was funny.

 

Man, I wish I could find some Okinawan style yaka-soba and Orion beer in the States!

 

An honest mistake, sir! And you should drop in on NYC for good yaka-soba, if memory serves.

[Sand]

I just don't buy it, Volourn. There was no justification for the United States to invade Iraq. Iraq was under control and contained by the UN. Iraq is a waste of American money and American lives.

 

Under control and contained? Then I suppose the thousands starving and denied medical care, not to mention the hundreds of thousands killed in genocidal acts are the UN's fault?

 

What goes on within the borders of one's country is the business of that country.

[Volourn]

"What goes on within the borders of one's country is the business of that country."

 

I disagree.

 

With that attitude, we might as will go back to the era of city states.

 

Whatever happens outside of the city we live in is non eof our business. R00fles!

 

Heck, anything that doesn't directly effect me or people I know is non eof business!

 

Why should I care if Joe Blow on the other side of town got beat up and robbed. It doesn't effect me!

[Sand]

Well, that is how I view it. I mind my own business and people should mind theirs. I take care of my own and nothing more. If people minded their own business and not bother other people there would be a whole less wars going on in the world and a whole lot less problems I think.

[Volourn]

Nha. Things would likely be worse. We wouldn't have any food outisde of what we farmed/caught ourselves, we'd have no electricty, no housing outside of which we built 9and, any house I built for myself would be rather off putting; i surely wouldn't want to live in it. Heh), and most importantly I wouldn't games to play.

 

L0LLERGAGS!

[Sand]

Would it really be worse? We wouldn't have wars, the environment wouldn't be collapsing, and we wouldn't have innane material object to obsess over and clutter our lives.

[Volourn]

"Would it really be worse? We wouldn't have wars, the environment wouldn't be collapsing, and we wouldn't have innane material object to obsess over and clutter our lives."

 

Sure, it is. the majority of humans would not last long without some menaingful interaction with others.

 

Some have skills that other sdon't, and vice evrsa. It mixes, and works for the most part.

 

There'd be no wars because there'd likely be no people to wage them. the environment had its own problems 9and, collapses) well before humans got any power to effect it in any way. Innane material objects are awesome. It's better than a life where all you have to do look forwrad to is the next day. I want more from my life even if it includes wasting time on the internet boards discussing about wasting our lives away.

 

R00fles!

[Atreides]

GD, what about Okinawa? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

 

Somewhat remiss of you to forget one of the hardest fought battles in your history. Not to mention the battle that gives the lie to the notion that the Japanese would have surrendered without the H bomb.

Yup, you got me there Wals. Okinawa was annexed by Japan in the late 1600's so it was Japanese soil. I was actually stationed there in 1991-1992. Pretty nice place, my favorite in Asia as a matter of fact.

 

Anyway, to reiterate, I had no point to make there. I just thought it was funny.

 

Man, I wish I could find some Okinawan style yaka-soba and Orion beer in the States!

I think that's yaki-soba unless it's a Okinawan twist on it. I could use an Asahi or three though.

[tripleRRR]

I just don't buy it, Volourn. There was no justification for the United States to invade Iraq. Iraq was under control and contained by the UN. Iraq is a waste of American money and American lives.

 

Under control and contained? Then I suppose the thousands starving and denied medical care, not to mention the hundreds of thousands killed in genocidal acts are the UN's fault?

 

What goes on within the borders of one's country is the business of that country.

 

^ That argument was used by Hermann Goering at the Nurenburg trials in his attempt to defend his actions regarding the holocaust and various other actions taken by the nazis. Do you really want to recognize something like that?

[Sand]

The reason that argument failed is because Germany went outside its borders and started to attack people.

[roshan]

So if Germany didnt attack other countries, then the holocaust would have been none of any other countries business?

[Sand]

Yes. I do agree that the holocaust was evil and that killing millions is wrong, but non-interference is a two way street. Lets say a nation is giving free healthcare to its citizens, equal rights to all, and freedom to allow great diversity, yet it is culturally and politically oppose to us. Do we have the right to interfere with that nation? No. As long as they don't interfere with us and what goes on within our borders then we should not interfere what goes on within their borders. That goes with a nation who is ruled by a tyrant who treats his people as slaves and fodder.

 

Of course if someone did decide to interfere with us I have no problem in recipricating the interference a thousand fold til that country is no longer capable to interfere with us.

Edited March 25, 2007 by Sand

[Walsingham]

Yes. I do agree that the holocaust was evil and that killing millions is wrong, but non-interference is a two way street. Lets say a nation is giving free healthcare to its citizens, equal rights to all, and freedom to allow great diversity, yet it is culturally and politically oppose to us. Do we have the right to interfere with that nation? No. As long as they don't interfere with us and what goes on within our borders then we should not interfere what goes on within their borders. That goes with a nation who is ruled by a tyrant who treats his people as slaves and fodder.

 

Of course if someone did decide to interfere with us I have no problem in recipricating the interference a thousand fold til that country is no longer capable to interfere with us.

 

 

You absolutely have to read "Shake Hands with the Devil" once you do I'd lay money on you abandoning this odd notion of yours. A crime against humanity is called that precisely because it transcends national borders.

[Sand]

I don't see it is our right to interfere the workings of another nation regardless if it is good or ill, just as much that other nations have no right to interfere with us.

[Walsingham]

I don't see it is our right to interfere the workings of another nation regardless if it is good or ill, just as much that other nations have no right to interfere with us.

 

Just to recap, in the last few weeks you[ve argued in favour of:

 

1) The treatment of defeated enemies according to the principles of the Treaty of Versailles.

 

2) Ignoring crimes against humanity.

 

3) Opposition to the principles of the Marshall plan

 

4) A general stance of isolationism

 

Is that a fair summary? And if so, can we assume that you therefore would like to see the United States wither to an appendix, her friends desert her, and her enemies be encouraged?

[SteveThaiBinh]

I think that's yaki-soba unless it's a Okinawan twist on it. I could use an Asahi or three though.

Right there with you.

... her friends desert her, and her enemies be encouraged?

Isn't that what has happened anyway with the overly-aggressive intervention in Iraq? The US had broad support and/or acceptance for its attack on Afghanistan, which it had squandered by the time it invaded Iraq. The US promised it wouldn't let Afghanistan degenerate into a tribal mess, yet for many places it did so. Some of us who opposed the Iraq war did so because the US has form.