Convert or Die!!!

[Jorian Drake]

Everytime I read something like this, I question whether religion or any other faith based system does anything except create intolerance and hatred.

 

We obviously have a long way to go. I only hope we don't obliterate ourselves first.

Religion = evil

 

Whats the main cause of wars, death, destruction and the suffering it brings right now? Religion.

 

correction: ideology

[Calax]

Why not take the Kurds, Isralies, Irish, Slavs et al and put them all in one country, call it ethnikostan, then let them sort themselves out? (Before you all attack me, it's an onion)

 

In all seriousness, Iraq isn't the most fantastic place to practice religion, but then neither is the deep south of america or Israel. Right now the situation in Iraq is one of controlled civil war. "controlled" in that we don't have guys openly digging trenches or bombarding eachother with rockets out in the open and fighting it like a conventional war, instead we see a guerrilla war against "american Oppressors" of the Iraqis.

 

I think one think that should be taken into account is that if you try and give freedom to a beaten people, those people will often fluster and try to get back under an oppressor, OR they will consider everyone an oppressor and fight everything.

[Guard Dog]

In all seriousness, Iraq isn't the most fantastic place to practice religion, but then neither is the deep south of america

 

C'mon Calax. Do you really consider the southern states to be on par with Iraq and Israel? If so you really should take a drive down here. I think you will find it is just like the rest of the country.

[Atreides]

In all seriousness, Iraq isn't the most fantastic place to practice religion, but then neither is the deep south of america or Israel. Right now the situation in Iraq is one of controlled civil war. "controlled" in that we don't have guys openly digging trenches or bombarding eachother with rockets out in the open and fighting it like a conventional war, instead we see a guerrilla war against "american Oppressors" of the Iraqis.

Some of the bloodiest are against civilians in civilian settings like markets and processions.

[Sand]

And that is what is leading the destabilization of the country. The first step is to force stabilization. Without a stable environment in which people can feel safe in, or at least not have to worry about getting blown up while going to market, there can be no progression towards a more amiable solution. As long as the chaos and destruction is allowed to remain the US will see no significant progress made.

 

Dictators can impose order at the cost of freedom, but one cannot have freedom without order being established first.

The real threat of having you, and everyone you know and your camel killed ain't exactly an environment which promotes feelings of safeness.

 

Yes, I know, but that is why we should simply leave and let them have at it. If they can't be civilized enough to sort their own problems without the need of violence then why should we spend the resources, manpower, and our soldiers lives to force them to act civilized? I am so sick of the US poiking its nose in places it just does not belong.

[Walsingham]

And that is what is leading the destabilization of the country. The first step is to force stabilization. Without a stable environment in which people can feel safe in, or at least not have to worry about getting blown up while going to market, there can be no progression towards a more amiable solution. As long as the chaos and destruction is allowed to remain the US will see no significant progress made.

 

Dictators can impose order at the cost of freedom, but one cannot have freedom without order being established first.

The real threat of having you, and everyone you know and your camel killed ain't exactly an environment which promotes feelings of safeness.

 

Yes, I know, but that is why we should simply leave and let them have at it. If they can't be civilized enough to sort their own problems without the need of violence then why should we spend the resources, manpower, and our soldiers lives to force them to act civilized? I am so sick of the US poiking its nose in places it just does not belong.

 

Really? You should have said.

 

You can't just hide under the duvet about this, Sando. The US is in the World. 9/11 occurred because you didn't acre that there were 'sick man' countries just like Iraq is now churning out extremists. Just lowering your gaze and hurrying past won't solve anything.

[metadigital]

But, yeah, Saddam's rule was a symbol of peace, harmony, and progress.

 

If you say so, but I only said that it was more stable than the current situation.

 

I'm not certain a stalinist regime predicated upon fear and constant random death qualifies as stable as such. Not in the same way the the MCC board could be said to be stable. Or a chemical compound. Or platform.

...

It will be said that a despot gives his subjects the assurance of civil tranquillity. Very well, but what does it profit them, if those wars against other powers which result from the despot's ambition, if his insatiable greed, and the oppressive demands of his administration, cause more desolation than civil strife would cause? What do the people gain if their very condition of civil tranquillity is one of their hardships? There is peace in dungeons, but is that enough to make the dungeons desirable? The Greeks lived in peace in the cave of the Cyclops awaiting their turn to be devoured.

[Sand]

Really? You should have said.

 

You can't just hide under the duvet about this, Sando. The US is in the World. 9/11 occurred because you didn't acre that there were 'sick man' countries just like Iraq is now churning out extremists. Just lowering your gaze and hurrying past won't solve anything.

 

Those who attack us should be wiped from the planet, without remorse or mercy, then we go back minding our own business. If they minded their own store and not bother us then we should not bother them, but if they do decide to bother us then we make them pay with blood.

[Walsingham]

Really? You should have said.

 

You can't just hide under the duvet about this, Sando. The US is in the World. 9/11 occurred because you didn't acre that there were 'sick man' countries just like Iraq is now churning out extremists. Just lowering your gaze and hurrying past won't solve anything.

 

Those who attack us should be wiped from the planet, without remorse or mercy, then we go back minding our own business. If they minded their own store and not bother us then we should not bother them, but if they do decide to bother us then we make them pay with blood.

 

I don't think you're properly applying your brain. You aren't simple, so I don't see how you can genuinely think this is a viable option. The World isn't highschool.

[Sand]

How is this not viable?

 

If we left other countries alone, except for trade of course, and not interfere for the better or worse then we can simply focus on internal affairs and take care of our own people. If another country attacks us, or a terrorist group that is supported by a nation, we retaliate in kind with the full force of our military against that nation to break it and make sure that it cannot attack us again, then we go back minding our own business, not bothering others, except for exporting and importing goods, and not interfering with their internal politics.

 

Such as we no longer give any foriegn aid to any nation as well as eliminate favored trade statuses for all nations and give them all the same and equal tariffs and taxes then no one nation can complain about favoritism. Also no one can claim that the US is partial to one nation over another, such as many Middle Eastern nations group us with Israel due to our support to that nation. Support that Israel no longer needs.

[Fionavar]

Well I think it is time out in the sandbox ... might I please impress upon the posting membership that blanket statements of mass destruction/annihilation of any people (i.e. ethnicity) really is not tolerated. Feel free to articulate an argument that is rationale and constructive, but moving into the sensationalist, requires me to move, and I so hate chipping a scale here and there ...

[Walsingham]

How is this not viable?

 

If we left other countries alone, except for trade of course, and not interfere for the better or worse then we can simply focus on internal affairs and take care of our own people. If another country attacks us, or a terrorist group that is supported by a nation, we retaliate in kind with the full force of our military against that nation to break it and make sure that it cannot attack us again, then we go back minding our own business, not bothering others, except for exporting and importing goods, and not interfering with their internal politics.

 

Such as we no longer give any foriegn aid to any nation as well as eliminate favored trade statuses for all nations and give them all the same and equal tariffs and taxes then no one nation can complain about favoritism. Also no one can claim that the US is partial to one nation over another, such as many Middle Eastern nations group us with Israel due to our support to that nation. Support that Israel no longer needs.

 

Firstly, "break another nation so it can't hurt us again"? you sound like Georges Clemenceau. We know how this approach precipitated the crises in Germany that lead to the upsurge in extremism and demand for revenge. Fight your wars in that way and you will either find yourself fighting the same people over and over, as they recover and seek revenge. Or you will find yourself fighting the whole world for behaving like a monster, perpetrating genocide. Is that path really better than one more measured but less dogmaticly reassuring?

 

Secondly I cannot understand your notion that you can wall yourself off and expect the world to elave you alone. It will emphatically not leave you alone. It may leave you till alst, but eventually you will find the course of world events written by people who believe the opposite to you. Do you expect them to respect your position or undermine you and take what is yours?