Big plot hole in KOTOR 1?

[Dazed&Confused]

First of all, I want to say hi to everybody, since this is my first post in these forums, although I've been reading you for a rather long time.

 

What made me making up my mind about posting here, is that I couldn't find a discussion - on this or other KOTOR forums - dealing with what I consider a rather big plot issue:

when you are interrogated by Admiral Karath on the Leviathan, it is assumed by Karath's and Bastila's words that Malak just about found out that there is a Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. But hasn't Malak been trained there? Or, at least, shouldn't he have known about the Enclave when he was a Jedi? And haven't he and Revan been on Dantooine at least once, anyway, to discover the first Star Map?

 

Is there a sound explanation for this?

 

I'm sorry if this has already been debated, but I searched this and other forums and couldn't find anything about it.

[The Dark Master]

Of course Malak knew about the enclave. Saul knew that Malak knew, and the question, "where were you trained", was a trick-question. It is possible that Bastila didn't know that Malak knew, which would explain her comments/behaviour

[LuXe]

Dantoine wasnt used as an enclave then . Only those "things" that were there. These builders that bult the place where the star map is. When Revan and Malak was here, there was no Enclave. I'm pretty sure of this. Also, Malak knew on beforehand that the enclave was on Dantoine through intelligence or something. But I am not completely sure.

Edited March 3, 2007 by LuXe

[Darth Mortis]

The Exile was trained on Dantooine, as the droid walking around the landing platform in TSL can show you if you repair it. This would imply that the enclave would have been there before the Madolorian wars. Since at least one of the Jedi masters on Dantooine is also stated to have been one of Revans teachers it seems highly likely that both Revan and Malak would have know about the place long before the wars started. As has been said it is more likely that this is a trick question, and the sort of question interigators often use; You ask a question to which you already know the answer, making it seem like you know far more than you really do. The person you question can fall into the trap of thinking that because you know more than you really do you're not telling them anything they don't already know. It is also worth remembering that the enclave was attacked around the same time you are captured, making it highly likley that Malak had already planned the attack well in advance, which in turn implies he knew about it. (One, of course, has to question the inteligence of the Jedi masters who claimed that the enclave was hidden from Malak, given that he and Revan seem to have trained their as Jedi....)

[Xard]

Dantooine's academy was established by Exar Kun's master so Revan & Malak propably were trained there

[Dazed&Confused]

The Exile was trained on Dantooine, as the droid walking around the landing platform in TSL can show you if you repair it. This would imply that the enclave would have been there before the Madolorian wars.

 

True.

 

Since at least one of the Jedi masters on Dantooine is also stated to have been one of Revans teachers it seems highly likely that both Revan and Malak would have know about the place long before the wars started.

 

True as well.

 

As has been said it is more likely that this is a trick question, and the sort of question interigators often use; You ask a question to which you already know the answer, making it seem like you know far more than you really do. The person you question can fall into the trap of thinking that because you know more than you really do you're not telling them anything they don't already know. It is also worth remembering that the enclave was attacked around the same time you are captured, making it highly likley that Malak had already planned the attack well in advance, which in turn implies he knew about it.

 

Yes, I agree with you.

It seemed to me that maybe Malak had only recently known of Dantooine, but he could as well have already known of it and simply delayed his attack

 

But...

 

(One, of course, has to question the inteligence of the Jedi masters who claimed that the enclave was hidden from Malak, given that he and Revan seem to have trained their as Jedi....)

 

That's exactly the point!

Both Bastila and the Council say that Dantooine is a safe place, hidden form the Sith. Moreover, when you are interrogated aboard the Leviathan, Karath obviously knows of Dantooine, but Bastila's dialogue clearly implies she believes Malak doesn't know about the Enclave.

I still think it's a big plot hole.

[Darth Mortis]

There are only four ways around this I can see;

 

1: Revan or Malak had attacked Dantooine at somepoint in the war and were lead to belive that they had destroyed the place, or that the enclave had been abandanded before Revan and Malak returned to attack the Republic.

 

Problem; There is nothing to show Dantooine had been attacked at anytime prior to Malaks attack in KOTOR. It would also seem strange that none of the Jedi who defected to the Sith bothered to mention that the place was still open for business.

 

2; The enclave was much smaller when Revan and Malak trained there, making it possible that they considered it had been abandoned.

 

Problem; In TSL we are twice given names of Jedi masters who served on the Jedi Council. The droids playback on Dantooine shows us that two of those Jedi Masters were talking about the exile during his/her training, implying that they were teaching there before the war, and one could assume during the same time as Revan and Malak would have been training. It seems unlikely that such senior members of the Jedi council would have trained students at a small academy.

 

3; Both Revan and Malak knew about Dantooine, but given that Revan was interested in converting Jedi he decided to let the enclave remain as it was-providing the Galaxy with more potential Jedi to turn to his side. When Malak took over his plan-to use the bodies of dead jedi as a power source for the StarForge- it took him time to get everything into place.

 

Problem;....Well none really. Revan leaving the enclave intact so it would be providing him with a potential source of new sith would be consistant with the way he would leave anything with Military potential intact-as we are told in TSL. Malaks plan would have taken sometime to prepare, so even if he knew about Dantooine he might well have held off attacking it until he was ready. After all it would be far better for him to have struck at Dantooine when he could do so with full force, rather than run the risk that large numbers of Jedi would escape forcing him to start looking for them again.

 

This could also explain why the council thought the enclave was safe. If they had leaked the fact that they had left Dantooine, and then after two years or so the place hadn't been attacked they might well have assumed that Revan and Malak no longer thought it was open for business.

 

4; The Jedi were relying on the force to warn them of any potential attack in advance, allowing them to evacuate the enclave.

 

Problem; ...Again, none. This would be consistant with the behaviour of the Jedi-after all they had no way of knowing that the StarForge (or Malak) could manipulate the force to the extent that it would not grant them warning.

 

Ok, I lied there are two problems with this. First off what where the Jedi intending to do about all the civilians on Dantooine? Did they seriously think that a Sith Lord was going to leave them alone if the Jedi had left?

 

Second, this implies that the Jedi would have to have been prepared to leave in a hurry. While this would explain why the Masters managed to escape Dantooine (Both from KOTOR and TSL it seems that all the Jedi masters you can talk to on Dantooine managed to escape), the question has to be where all the ships to evacuate them were. The only ship sitting on the landing pad on Dantooine was the Ebon Hawk.

Edited March 3, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[SteveThaiBinh]

Since the topic title has *warning spoilers*, I think we could possibly do without spoiler tags for entire posts?

 

Thank you all for being so considerate, though - with a combined discussion and spoilers forum, we do need to keep this issue in mind.

[Knights&Darths]

"Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here,

including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order."

 

[Mellypie]

Actually, I'm thinking it's a plot hole. Because even Master Vandar refers to it as a "hidden refuge", when it's been there since the Sith War. Exar Kun was trained there, IIRC. Any Jedi would know about the enclave on Dantooine.

[Dark_Raven]

Since the topic title has *warning spoilers*, I think we could possibly do without spoiler tags for entire posts?

 

Thank you all for being so considerate, though - with a combined discussion and spoilers forum, we do need to keep this issue in mind.

You forgot to move this thread to the Star Wars Universe forum, considering this is a Kotor 1 topic.

[Dark Wastl]

Actually, I'm thinking it's a plot hole. Because even Master Vandar refers to it as a "hidden refuge", when it's been there since the Sith War. Exar Kun was trained there, IIRC. Any Jedi would know about the enclave on Dantooine.

 

It is possible that "hidden refuge" refers to it being hidden from the public, not all Jedi/former Jedi. It's not like the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, which is pretty hard to miss.

[SteveThaiBinh]

You forgot to move this thread to the Star Wars Universe forum, considering this is a Kotor 1 topic.

Ooh, that's a point.

 

Thanks.

[Hassat Hunter]

It is possible that "hidden refuge" refers to it being hidden from the public, not all Jedi/former Jedi. It's not like the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, which is pretty hard to miss.

 

Every inhabitant of the planet knew about it... not very Hidden then, eh

Also it seemed that it wasn't "hidden" at all from off-worlders (Juhani knew they came from Dantooine and flew over there).

[Dark Wastl]

The settlers on Dantooine weren't exactly known for going offworld all the time. There were hardly any people living there anyway. It's a remote system not many people care about.

It's is one thing to have an enclave which is known to a few people who live next to it, it is something entirely different to have a temple which is known all over the galaxy.

 

Does the game really state that Juhani went do Dantooine?

I never finished her sidequest, and it's been a while since I played the game, so I don't know if there is anything which states how she met the Jedi (after Taris that is).

If there is no such comment in the game, it is entirely possible that she went to Coruscant and was sent to Dantooine by the Jedi later on.

[Darth Mortis]

Does the game really state that Juhani went do Dantooine?

 

I think Juhani simply went in search of the Jedi, rather than Dantooine.

 

It is possible that "hidden refuge" refers to it being hidden from the public, not all Jedi/former Jedi. It's not like the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, which is pretty hard to miss.

 

Which still raises the question as to why they would call it a hidden place. While it might not be advertised on every street corner in the Republic it was well know to the Jedi....and Revan, Malak and all those dark Jedi/Sith were once Jedi and would have known about it. Hiding it from the masses is irelievent if half the people your fighting happened to train there.

 

The settlers on Dantooine weren't exactly known for going offworld all the time. There were hardly any people living there anyway. It's a remote system not many people care about.

 

The settlers might not have been going offworld, but there would be plenty of people who were. During KOTOR there is a mention of a spaceport and at least one business that seemed to work out of it-This would imply that if nothing else Dantooine was importing goods. Hard to imagine that the fact that there was a Jedi Academy on the planet would have remained a secret if everyone on the planet knew about it, and people where coming in all the time.

 

Then there were the Mandolorians on Dantooine, they seemed to be guns for hire, have their own ships and to not be all that impressed with the Jedi. It seems very unlikely that they would failed, at any time, to mention the enclave on Dantooine-At the very least anyone with the smallest amount of brains would assume they would feel no compulsion at telling anyone who asked.

 

And again, this just raises yet another question; If Revan and Malak knew about the enclave on Dantooine why did the Jedi not move somewhere else? Seems that the Jedi decided to remain on a world their enemies already knew about, and which was remote so presumably away from any major Republic fleet that could come to their aid should it be attacked-In turn meaning why would the Jedi assume Malak wouldn't attack the place? There would seem to have been nothing to stop a Sith fleet turning up in orbit and carpet bombing the planet.

 

The more I look at the choices the Jedi Masters made during the Civil war the more I'm starting to think that they were not losing because Revan was a huge tactical genius, but because the Jedi had the collective Tactical skills of a turnip.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[DAWUSS]

Yeah, the Dantooine academy may be in a remote corner of the galaxy (Waddnt dat part of the reason it avoided being blown up by the DS?), at the same time, it seems everyone knows that the Sith Academy is on Korriban. Wanna' be a Jedi? Go to Dantooine. Wanna' be a Sith? Go to Korriban.

 

 

 

wow.

[Hassat Hunter]

Juhani:

 

"But the Jedi soon left to fight their war. And I was left with a dream...I swore that I would become a Jedi. As soon as I had enough money to do it, I bought passage on a freighter headed for Dantooine.And we both know what has happened since then."

(Replaced with full quote from Dialog.TLK)

Edited March 4, 2007 by Hassat Hunter

[Xard]

Maybe she heard about Academy from some (drunk) jedi?

[Darth Mortis]

"Do you want to fight for the Republic?

 

Do you want to work towards the elimination of evil?

 

Are you a galactic minority full of burning hated towards those who would exploit and enslave you, with no place left to go?

 

Do you like to make meaningless statments and call it wisdom?

 

Do you want your own lightsabre?

 

If the answers are yes then why not Join the Jedi order today!

 

Apply to Master Vrook at the Hidden Jedi Enclave on Dantooine today! Ships leaving every hour on the hour from terminal 3.

 

Ps; Please do not read this if you are affiliated with the Sith or any other group opposed to the Jedi order.

 

Disclaimer; The Jedi order takes no responsibilty should you;

 

Turn into a Sith Lord during or after training.

 

Attempt to take over the galaxy,

 

wipe out whole species,

 

Destroy whole planets just to kill the one person you really want to kill,

 

Lose your sense of humor

 

Lose all your hair

 

Become sexually frustrated due to the ban on Jedi having any type of romance-this includes so much as looking at a member of the opposite sex.

 

(Poster in the Taris docks)

Edited March 4, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[Hassat Hunter]

Quick read through Dialog.TLK gives:

 

Bastila after the escape on Taris:

Dantooine... it seems like a lifetime since I last set foot on her surface, though in truth it has only been a few months. We should be safe from Malak here... for now, at least.Safe? You saw what his fleet did to Taris: there wasn't a building over two stories high left standing! They...they turned the planet into one big pile of rubble.Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place.We can't just keep running; Malak will find us eventually. We need to regroup; we need a plan.

 

Also mentions about how the destruction of Taris is awfull; and Master Zhar feels like it is no longer save on Dantooine and they might leave there shortly.

 

Also; another fun one (someone has an account with Team Jawa? )

This is the corpse of Crattis Yurkal, the Twi'lek who ran the droid shop on Dantooine. The Sith must have captured him during the attack on the Jedi enclave and then dumped him here to die from his injuries.

[Xard]

Where did you find that later quote Hassat?

Edited March 4, 2007 by Xard

[Guest Accept]

Also; another fun one (someone has an account with Team Jawa? )

This is the corpse of Crattis Yurkal, the Twi'lek who ran the droid shop on Dantooine. The Sith must have captured him during the attack on the Jedi enclave and then dumped him here to die from his injuries.

Oh my...

 

[Hassat Hunter]

Where did you find that later quote Hassat?

Quick read through Dialog.TLK gives:

[Xard]

Oh, right. I thought someone had said so in Team Jawa's forums

 

In what kind of connection you found that?