The Hinduism Thread

[metadigital]

And the Bosphorus separates Europe from Asia, so Istanbul is the only city in the world that spans two continents.

[roshan]

So, what's the point of being a Hindu atheist, then? Why not just use Occam's Razor and be an atheist?

 

I reject materialistic philosophies because they cannot provide cvilizations with the strength needed to survive and expand. A great example is the west - birth rates are plummeting, fertility is declining, women are having children at continously later years. Chances are, within a few generations, what we know of as western civilization will cease to exist as immigrants from other civilizations overrun Europe and America.

 

Religions like Hinduism unite people under common values, unite and build families, and through various customs/rituals/celebrations creates a cohesive and organic society.

[kirottu]

LMAO, this thread doesn't have any flaming and bickering unlike each thread which talks about christianity :crazy:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Obviously Hindus haven

[Rosbjerg]

Oh yes, those guys. They are bit smarted than christian requiters, since they come to talk to you in places, where you feel lost and confused like giant airports and stuff.

 

Yeah especially because you are way more confused about life and religion in general when you are place like that.. just watch Dogma and you'll know what I mean!

[kirottu]

I just bought the DVD.

[Dark Moth]

I do have a question though that is kinda off-topic. Would the Middle East be considered more occidental or oriental?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Depends on your relative position. If you are from the east say China, it's more occidental; and if you are from the west say Europe, it's more oriental; and if you are from the opposite surface of the earth say America, you become very confused...

I guess that's why it's called the "Middle" East, then. ^_^

[metadigital]

So, what's the point of being a Hindu atheist, then? Why not just use Occam's Razor and be an atheist?

 

I reject materialistic philosophies because they cannot provide cvilizations with the strength needed to survive and expand. A great example is the west - birth rates are plummeting, fertility is declining, women are having children at continously later years. Chances are, within a few generations, what we know of as western civilization will cease to exist as immigrants from other civilizations overrun Europe and America.

 

Religions like Hinduism unite people under common values, unite and build families, and through various customs/rituals/celebrations creates a cohesive and organic society.

I find that a pretty unconvincing atheism; more non-theism, because you believe in the Hindu religion just without any specific deities. What specific Hindu values do you think are worthwhile, over and above Humanism?

 

As for your statements about fertility and population, fertility is naturally less for older people (leaving aside poor diet, which is a huge reversible factor); secondly, one of the main reasons that women have fewer children, later, in developed countries is because they have better health and education. Therefore people do not need to have as many children to help counter the higher infant mortality, and the workforce has many more (empowered) women who have a vocation outside that of being a mother. (You might want to factor in the endemic child labour in India.) It does not edify you in any way to make such appallingly offensive statements about "overrunning" civilizations.

[roshan]

I find that a pretty unconvincing atheism; more non-theism, because you believe in the Hindu religion just without any specific deities. What specific Hindu values do you think are worthwhile, over and above Humanism?

Atheism means lack of a belief in god. What is unconvincing about my atheism? Hinduism is more of a way of life than a religion. It has very few theological concepts that one needs to accept - just karma, reincarnation, soul, vedas and liberation. If atheism requires anything more than a rejection of god, it could possibly be considered to be more dogmatic than Hinduism is!

 

There isnt any particular Hindu value I consider worthwhile. However, I consider examples of dharmic lives set by characters in Hindu scriptures (such as the Mahabharata and Ramayana) to be worth emulating, in general.

 

As for your statements about fertility and population, fertility is naturally less for older people (leaving aside poor diet, which is a huge reversible factor); secondly, one of the main reasons that women have fewer children, later, in developed countries is because they have better health and education. Therefore people do not need to have as many children to help counter the higher infant mortality, and the workforce has many more (empowered) women who have a vocation outside that of being a mother. (You might want to factor in the endemic child labour in India.) It does not edify you in any way to make such appallingly offensive statements about "overrunning" civilizations.

 

Trust me, I dont want to see any civilizations "overrun". I believe in peace, coexistence, global diversity and the rest of that stuff. But the truth must be told and it sure looks to me like western countries are being overrun by immigrants.

 

I dont agree that the reason women in western countries are having less children is because of health and education. Its because of hedonistic materialism which is caused by a spiritual vacuum. People in these countries no longer search for lasting happiness, they just want quick thrills, material posessions and sensual pleasure. Also, if other western countries are like the UK, it is probably almost financially impossible for a huge portion of the population to afford children. The costs of food, transportation, rent, tax etc take up a huge portion of a low salary. If you want children, you might have to llive a life of no savings (and thus no long term progress in life), vacations etc.

 

Thus, womens fertility in western European countries is well below the replacement rate, even after factoring the much higher birth rates of immigrants. I wish these materialist countries the best of luck with their futures!

 

I dont want to contribute to the problem by being a materialist as well. So I am going to stick to Hinduism.

Edited January 31, 2007 by roshan

[Dark Moth]

Hinduism is a religion, hence the belief in a god or gods. To be an atheist is not Hindu. I would not describe you as a Hindu, more like an atheist who just shares Hindu philosophies. Case in point: if I were to say I was an atheist Christian, it would not make any sense since I'd be contradicting myself.

 

Trust me, I dont want to see any civilizations "overrun". I believe in peace, coexistence, global diversity and the rest of that stuff. But the truth must be told and it sure looks to me like western countries are being overrun by immigrants.

 

I dont agree that the reason women in western countries are having less children is because of health and education. Its because of hedonistic materialism which is caused by a spiritual vacuum. People in these countries no longer search for lasting happiness, they just want quick thrills, material posessions and sensual pleasure. Also, if other western countries are like the UK, it is probably almost financially impossible for a huge portion of the population to afford children. The costs of food, transportation, rent, tax etc take up a huge portion of a low salary. If you want children, you might have to llive a life of no savings (and thus no long term progress in life), vacations etc.

 

Thus, womens fertility in western European countries is well below the replacement rate, even after factoring the much higher birth rates of immigrants. I wish these materialist countries the best of luck with their futures!

 

I dont want to contribute to the problem by being a materialist as well. So I am going to stick to Hinduism.

Oh no, you don't want to see any civilizations overrun. You just feel free to make ignorant and highly offensive comments like that. The western civilization as we know it has existed for many millenia, to say it's simply going to be 'overrun' by eastern culture in the near future is just absurd. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I just don't feel as if you know what you're talking about. Yes, we are seeing a decline in birth rates, but it's more for the reasons meta stated above, not simply because of hedonism or materialism. Also, hedonism is not something localized to the west, it affects eastern culture, too. Having more children is a common thing among poorer countries, it doesn't have to do with one just being eastern or western. It also is why you're comment about a "huge portion" of our population not being able to afford children doesn't make sense. Many poor countries can do it, we can, too. Many of us just choose not too.

[Purgatorio]

Japan has a declining birth rate and their culture isn't very western. Unless it is their focusing on whatever they focus on that is taking up so much time.... Probably video games. Real humans don't have tentacles. So that might be another reason.

 

I thought a central principal of Hinduism was the mother. The link of our mothers, the Earth and the creator of the universe. I don't see Hinduism as being much different to how I see god, and all that is of "god". Since I am pagan that is not surprising.

If the soul is eternal then we would be gods since god is eternal. But no that depends on where we are on the Karmic wheel. I would think animals are higher up than humans, since they are more in tune with nature, and are not confused by the interference of the question "What is god?" God is a human invention, we even made animals gods.

The more complex a religion is (dogma and hierarchy) the further from the truth it's followers are. Spiritualists that focus on removing the self from the equation are closer to the truth than the person who focuses on interpreting a book. Whether a god is worshiped or not is immaterial to finding enlightenment. The Buddha for example found enlightenment.

 

If love is divine, sensual pleasure can bring us closer to the divine. Not the way of Casanova, he found it depressing, obviously he didn't do it right or enough. Craving pleasure (desire) leads to suffering. Nirvana is nothingness, void of want and desire. I am only going from what little I have read and remember from Monkey Magic..... and Tripitaka was a Buddhist. The worlds religions are essentially the same.

 

The Hindu Gods are different manifestations of the creator of the universe, the Celestial Cow born from the Void. The vibrating strings of the universe or whatever. It still doesn't answer the question of what came before the universe, I mean it had to come from somewhere maybe from the death of another. Rebirth, and reincarnation....

[Laozi]

There isnt any particular Hindu value I consider worthwhile.

 

 

So do you really like Indian food, and if so how old were you when you started eating it? How often would you say you eat it now?

Edited January 31, 2007 by Laozi

[roshan]

Hinduism is a religion, hence the belief in a god or gods. To be an atheist is not Hindu. I would not describe you as a Hindu, more like an atheist who just shares Hindu philosophies. Case in point: if I were to say I was an atheist Christian, it would not make any sense since I'd be contradicting myself.

Dont be silly. There are a lot of atheist religions in India including Buddhism, Jainism and variants of Hinduism. There are many Hindu sub-philosophies that reject the idea of a god - such as Vedanta, Sankhya and Vaiseshika. I am a follower of one of these atheist variants of Hinduism.

 

Oh no, you don't want to see any civilizations overrun. You just feel free to make ignorant and highly offensive comments like that. The western civilization as we know it has existed for many millenia, to say it's simply going to be 'overrun' by eastern culture in the near future is just absurd. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I just don't feel as if you know what you're talking about. Yes, we are seeing a decline in birth rates, but it's more for the reasons meta stated above, not simply because of hedonism or materialism. Also, hedonism is not something localized to the west, it affects eastern culture, too. Having more children is a common thing among poorer countries, it doesn't have to do with one just being eastern or western. It also is why you're comment about a "huge portion" of our population not being able to afford children doesn't make sense. Many poor countries can do it, we can, too. Many of us just choose not too.

 

A lot of western countries now have huge populations of immigrants that will slowly replace the native populations. This may sound "offensive" to you but its an unfortunate fact. Materialism is driving western civilization down the drain. A capitalist economy needs a stable or increasing pool of labour. With fertility well below replacement in western Europe, where is this labour going to come from? Immigrants, who are much more fertile than the natives.

 

I agree that materialism is also affecting eastern Asia and is crashing fertility there too. But east Asian countries are not importing huge numbers of immigrants.

 

EDIT: Its best that we continue the political discussion elsewhere, this thread should stay focused on Hinduism.

Edited January 31, 2007 by roshan

[Sand]

Dark Moth, one can adopt the values and morality of a religion without worshiping the god or gods found within it. Hinduism, being one of the world's older religions, far older than Christianity and Islam and their traditions, has many sects that profess different aspects in belief and practice with no single one of them being more or less right than the other.

 

As for the immigration and low fertility, why does that matter? Human is human.

[roshan]

I thought a central principal of Hinduism was the mother. The link of our mothers, the Earth and the creator of the universe. I don't see Hinduism as being much different to how I see god, and all that is of "god". Since I am pagan that is not surprising.

 

According to Hinduism a sons first duty in life is always towards his mother. There is also a vague concept of a "bhumi mata" or mother earth, but there is pretty much no emphasis on this.

 

Hindus reject the idea of creation. Hindus believe the universe to be eternal, undergoing cycles of destruction and reformation. Atheist Hindus regard the universe to be superimposed on the monistic absolute reality by a force called Maya, which is a property of this absolute realityy. Theist Hindus regard it to be an eternal manifestation of a pantheistic god. There is no concept of creation out of nothing in Hinduism. Hindus agree with evolution, that the universe develops through the interactions of matter/energy, and that matter is made up of tiny particles. Theistic Hindus believe that such evolution is guided by god, as the universe, in Hinduism, is an extension of God.

 

If the soul is eternal then we would be gods since god is eternal. But no that depends on where we are on the Karmic wheel. I would think animals are higher up than humans, since they are more in tune with nature, and are not confused by the interference of the question "What is god?" God is a human invention, we even made animals gods.

Atheist Hindus regard the soul as being exactly the same as the monistic absolute reality, Brahman. The idnividual soul is a product of Maya, the same force that produced the universe. Once one is enlightened the soul as an disctinct entity ceases to exist, completely dissolved into brahman.

 

Theistic Hindus regard the soul to be a part of and a manifestation of god, like rays to light.

 

The more complex a religion is (dogma and hierarchy) the further from the truth it's followers are. Spiritualists that focus on removing the self from the equation are closer to the truth than the person who focuses on interpreting a book. Whether a god is worshiped or not is immaterial to finding enlightenment. The Buddha for example found enlightenment.

 

Exactly, this is why Hinduism has very little dogma as possible. It has no one book, Hindus are free to find truth from everywhere, and there are innumerable scriptures with the Hindu name on it. Hinduism encompasses a wide range of philosophies(monism, pantheism, atheism etc.) because it believes that everyone needs something different as we are all at various stages of spiritual development.

 

If love is divine, sensual pleasure can bring us closer to the divine. Not the way of Casanova, he found it depressing, obviously he didn't do it right or enough. Craving pleasure (desire) leads to suffering. Nirvana is nothingness, void of want and desire. I am only going from what little I have read and remember from Monkey Magic..... and Tripitaka was a Buddhist. The worlds religions are essentially the same.

 

Love is not divine. Love/devotion can only bring people closer to the truth if it is practiced as a "yoga", a path leading to the liberation of the soul.

 

The Hindu Gods are different manifestations of the creator of the universe, the Celestial Cow born from the Void. The vibrating strings of the universe or whatever. It still doesn't answer the question of what came before the universe, I mean it had to come from somewhere maybe from the death of another. Rebirth, and reincarnation....

 

Hinduism doesnt believe that the universe came out of nothing - god as a creator is rejected by Hindus. Theistic Hindus view the universe as an extension of god itself - not a creation of god.

[Sand]

What is the universe if not a god? Unfathomably large in scope, in power, and fully unknowable to a mortal's mind.

[metadigital]

I find that a pretty unconvincing atheism; more non-theism, because you believe in the Hindu religion just without any specific deities. What specific Hindu values do you think are worthwhile, over and above Humanism?

Atheism means lack of a belief in god. What is unconvincing about my atheism? Hinduism is more of a way of life than a religion. It has very few theological concepts that one needs to accept - just karma, reincarnation, soul, vedas and liberation. If atheism requires anything more than a rejection of god, it could possibly be considered to be more dogmatic than Hinduism is!

 

There isnt any particular Hindu value I consider worthwhile. However, I consider examples of dharmic lives set by characters in Hindu scriptures (such as the Mahabharata and Ramayana) to be worth emulating, in general.

Because an atheist doesn't believe in karma, reincarnation, soul, vedas and liberation, obviously.

As for your statements about fertility and population, fertility is naturally less for older people (leaving aside poor diet, which is a huge reversible factor); secondly, one of the main reasons that women have fewer children, later, in developed countries is because they have better health and education. Therefore people do not need to have as many children to help counter the higher infant mortality, and the workforce has many more (empowered) women who have a vocation outside that of being a mother. (You might want to factor in the endemic child labour in India.) It does not edify you in any way to make such appallingly offensive statements about "overrunning" civilizations.

 

Trust me, I dont want to see any civilizations "overrun". I believe in peace, coexistence, global diversity and the rest of that stuff. But the truth must be told and it sure looks to me like western countries are being overrun by immigrants.

 

I dont agree that the reason women in western countries are having less children is because of health and education. Its because of hedonistic materialism which is caused by a spiritual vacuum. People in these countries no longer search for lasting happiness, they just want quick thrills, material posessions and sensual pleasure. Also, if other western countries are like the UK, it is probably almost financially impossible for a huge portion of the population to afford children. The costs of food, transportation, rent, tax etc take up a huge portion of a low salary. If you want children, you might have to llive a life of no savings (and thus no long term progress in life), vacations etc.

 

Thus, womens fertility in western European countries is well below the replacement rate, even after factoring the much higher birth rates of immigrants. I wish these materialist countries the best of luck with their futures!

 

I dont want to contribute to the problem by being a materialist as well. So I am going to stick to Hinduism.

I don't care if you agree or not with the established facts about health and education and empowering women. You seem to be confused about what is offensive about your remarks; it's not the decline of developed nations, it's the "swarming" metaphor.

 

A lot of western countries now have huge populations of immigrants that will slowly replace the native populations. This may sound "offensive" to you but its an unfortunate fact. Materialism is driving western civilization down the drain. A capitalist economy needs a stable or increasing pool of labour. With fertility well below replacement in western Europe, where is this labour going to come from? Immigrants, who are much more fertile than the natives.

 

I agree that materialism is also affecting eastern Asia and is crashing fertility there too. But east Asian countries are not importing huge numbers of immigrants.

 

EDIT: Its best that we continue the political discussion elsewhere, this thread should stay focused on Hinduism.

Yes, it is better you don't try to manage politics and anthropology in this topic, as you obviously have very little idea about either.

[Jorian Drake]

This is Reformed Hinduism, not Atheism.

 

 

 

 

But God will forgive you my child...eventually.

 

 

[Purgatorio]

^Which one?

According to Hinduism a sons first duty in life is always towards his mother. There is also a vague concept of a "bhumi mata" or mother earth, but there is pretty much no emphasis on this.

 

It depends... A women would be more likly to worship a goddess of childbirth, just as the ancient pagans had a reverence for the earth. To complex to go into in full.

 

Hindus reject the idea of creation. Hindus believe the universe to be eternal, undergoing cycles of destruction and reformation. Atheist Hindus regard the universe to be superimposed on the monistic absolute reality by a force called Maya, which is a property of this absolute realityy. Theist Hindus regard it to be an eternal manifestation of a pantheistic god. There is no concept of creation out of nothing in Hinduism. Hindus agree with evolution, that the universe develops through the interactions of matter/energy, and that matter is made up of tiny particles. Theistic Hindus believe that such evolution is guided by god, as the universe, in Hinduism, is an extension of God.

 

Atheist Hindus regard the soul as being exactly the same as the monistic absolute reality, Brahman. The idnividual soul is a product of Maya, the same force that produced the universe. Once one is enlightened the soul as an disctinct entity ceases to exist, completely dissolved into brahman.

 

Theistic Hindus regard the soul to be a part of and a manifestation of god, like rays to light.

 

Exactly, this is why Hinduism has very little dogma as possible. It has no one book, Hindus are free to find truth from everywhere, and there are innumerable scriptures with the Hindu name on it. Hinduism encompasses a wide range of philosophies(monism, pantheism, atheism etc.) because it believes that everyone needs something different as we are all at various stages of spiritual development.

One persons path to enlightenment would not be the same as another's. The dissolving is Nirvana when the self ceases to exist.

 

Hindus reject the idea of creation. Hindus believe the universe to be eternal, undergoing cycles of destruction and reformation. Atheist Hindus regard the universe to be superimposed on the monistic absolute reality by a force called Maya, which is a property of this absolute realityy. Theist Hindus regard it to be an eternal manifestation of a pantheistic god. There is no concept of creation out of nothing in Hinduism. Hindus agree with evolution, that the universe develops through the interactions of matter/energy, and that matter is made up of tiny particles. Theistic Hindus believe that such evolution is guided by god, as the universe, in Hinduism, is an extension of God.

Hinduism doesnt believe that the universe came out of nothing - god as a creator is rejected by Hindus. Theistic Hindus view the universe as an extension of god itself - not a creation of god.

 

The particles reminds me of the Carbon cycle in Farscape ^_^ , that and Margaret Cavendish's theory on intelligent matter. To further the creation of the universe from destruction there is Shiva. The vibrating particles could be related to the drum/heartbeat of the universe. I like Hinduism. I don't get Christianity.

What is the universe if not a god? Unfathomably large in scope, in power, and fully unknowable to a mortal's mind.

Aren't you an atheist? Science and religion are supposed to be able to co-exist according to the Bah

[roshan]

This is Reformed Hinduism, not Atheism.

 

 

But God will forgive you my child...eventually.

 

 

Because an atheist doesn't believe in karma, reincarnation, soul, vedas and liberation, obviously.

Both of you are confusing materialism with atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in God - atheism has nothing to do with karma and reincarnation. Buddhism, Jainism, Vedantic Hinduism and Sankhyatic Hinduism are all atheist religions which accept karma, reincarnation and some variation of liberation.

 

Yes, it is better you don't try to manage politics and anthropology in this topic, as you obviously have very little idea about either.

 

What happened to keeping threads on topic? Arent threads normally locked for drifting off topic? If you want to continue the discussion here then you are very welcome to refute my point about western civilization being on the decline.

 

I don't care if you agree or not with the established facts about health and education and empowering women. You seem to be confused about what is offensive about your remarks; it's not the decline of developed nations, it's the "swarming" metaphor.

 

India has a middle class of 200 million people who are healthy and educated, but they arent forgoing children. The idea that westerners dont have children because they are healthy and educated is a fallacy created by materialists and leftists to make it seem like not having children is normal and natural, when it is an abnormal phenomenon caused by hedonistic materialism. Nowadays the same leftists are promoting abortion and other such "adharmic" activities in India as well.

 

I dont think there could be anything possibly offensive about the truth.

Edited January 31, 2007 by roshan

[roshan]

It depends... A women would be more likly to worship a goddess of childbirth, just as the ancient pagans had a reverence for the earth. To complex to go into in full.

There is no concept of goddess of "childbirth" in Hinduism. However worship of god as a divine mother is quite common, and is equally if not more appealing to males.

 

The particles reminds me of the Carbon cycle in Farscape , that and Margaret Cavendish's theory on intelligent matter. To further the creation of the universe from destruction there is Shiva. The vibrating particles could be related to the drum/heartbeat of the universe. I like Hinduism. I don't get Christianity.

 

Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva forms a trinity, which can be simplified into a circle. It means that the everything that exists is in a constant state of change, everything that exists is actually moving towards destruction and eventual reformation as something else. Much like how the soul passes from one life into another. The universe is also said to undergo cycles of destruction and reformation. Hindus view both formation and destruction as being equally divine.

 

In order to acheive permanence in a universe that is constantly changing, in order to end the cycle of destruction and reformation, the liberation of the soul is necessary.

[Sand]

Aren't you an atheist? Science and religion are supposed to be able to co-exist according to the Bah

[Dark Moth]

A lot of western countries now have huge populations of immigrants that will slowly replace the native populations. This may sound "offensive" to you but its an unfortunate fact. Materialism is driving western civilization down the drain. A capitalist economy needs a stable or increasing pool of labour. With fertility well below replacement in western Europe, where is this labour going to come from? Immigrants, who are much more fertile than the natives.

 

I agree that materialism is also affecting eastern Asia and is crashing fertility there too. But east Asian countries are not importing huge numbers of immigrants.

 

EDIT: Its best that we continue the political discussion elsewhere, this thread should stay focused on Hinduism.

But it's not a fact. It's an opinion that you're making based on very poor (or no) reasoning. You can't be serious. First of all, you're making it seem like native populations aren't having babies at all. Secondly, you claim that immigrants are 'more fertile' than the natives. What, are you trying to say they can have babies more easily? No, I see you're point. You're just running on the assumption that eastern people naturally have more babies than western people. As I already pointed out, this has nothing to do with eastern or western. Also, you fail to realize that western culture is influencing every part of the globe, it's not something that's going to just die out. It's common knowledge that poorer countries tend to have much more children than developed countries. Look at the Hispanic population. Granted, we're seeing an incorporation of eastern culture into the west, but it's not something that's going to overrun western culture entirely. And as for materialism driving western culture down the drain, well that's just BS. We're not just going to simply collapse, as you seem to think. As for labor, many of those people work for much less than the natives would because of their poor conditions, not just because they're a "more stable" pool of labor. No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about, and you may want to hold your tongue before running your mouth off about these things.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Dark Moth

[Laozi]

There isnt any particular Hindu value I consider worthwhile.

 

 

So do you really like Indian food, and if so how old were you when you started eating it? How often would you say you eat it now?

 

 

 

Still wondering

[Dark Moth]

I like Hinduism. I don't get Christianity.

I'm curious, what exactly don't you get? I promise I won't go "Crusader" on you.

 

By the way, it's "son of God", not "sun of God".

[Xard]

Christian religion is too well known and easy target. I mean, just swing your blow loosely to its direction, you're going to hit anyway.