Throwing out a question concerning AI

[Plano Skywalker]

it would never play a robust game with all dairy farms because that would amount to it being gimped in some way

 

I'm not sure what you mean here when you use the word robust. I can't make sense of this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think you understand the context in which it is being offered. In other words, yes, the AI is trying to win using strategies that are comparable to your own but is also playing based on a "personality" that does not also go for the bottom-line mathematical advantage.

 

If it is not playing "robust", then I simply mean it is going through the motions but not really trying to win (i.e. the easy mode).

[metadigital]

F.E.A.R's was only good because it linked certain interactive objects to actors (as to save processor time). While this is good for a hall-to-hall game like F.E.A.R it will be far less suitable for a non-linear game like Deus Ex or System Shock 2. IMO once you are found in DX they should never let you go and call for assistance from nearby friendlies etc. This *should* not make it impossible for the player... because you can still sneak around their searches as normal; or take them down ofcourse... oh well...

 

The only thing I can think of is that design feels that it becomes too unforgiving.

 

Either that or there is some other issue that I'm not familiar with that makes keeping them in the alerted state problematic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like Mr Hassat would like Far Cry.

 

I think the only weakness in the Deus Ex gameplay is the limited alarm; now when I play I am not very bothered if I trip an alarm as long as I can get to a hiding place shortly after and wait thirty seconds. The alarm set-up in Splinter Cell is more appropriate, I think, as it tracks total infringements (and whether Sam hides the bodies).

 

Haven't we had this discussion before?

[Fenghuang]

Far Cry had good AI.

 

Halo had pretty okay AI too.

 

AI is bad because nobody cares enought to make good AI.

Edited January 28, 2007 by Fenghuang

[LadyCrimson]

here might be an example of what I mean.  take the game Stronghold.  anyone who has ever played that game knows that wheat farms + mills + bakeries = the best food production in the game.  (snip)

Ah, ok, I get what you mean.

Oddly, Stronghold is a game where I liked the AI - not because it was smart but because I like to build up and smash their castles. SH's AI was all about defense, imo - AI armies they'd send were all small and stupid, w/occasional larger waves after hours of play. heh

 

I haven't played TotalWar - I'm curious if they've improved the problem common in older RTS games where it's mostly about greatest numbers. Are they better about giving players other ways to defeat the AI opponents besides just amassing huge armies/special units and razing the enemy with them. Either through sneaking actions or politics, perhaps. And by sneaking, I don't mean AOE-like "here's four units, get them safely to the other side of the map" levels.

[alanschu]

Would that actually make sense?  I'd think firing off an explosive projectile should set off some red flags.

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I will use a silencer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really sure how you silence and explosion.

[alanschu]

it would never play a robust game with all dairy farms because that would amount to it being gimped in some way

 

I'm not sure what you mean here when you use the word robust. I can't make sense of this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think you understand the context in which it is being offered. In other words, yes, the AI is trying to win using strategies that are comparable to your own but is also playing based on a "personality" that does not also go for the bottom-line mathematical advantage.

 

If it is not playing "robust", then I simply mean it is going through the motions but not really trying to win (i.e. the easy mode).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually I didn't. I thought you were talking about how it would never play a "robust game with dairy farms" as in, it never use a robust dairy farm strategy.

[Rosbjerg]

I haven't played TotalWar - I'm curious if they've improved the problem common in older RTS games where it's mostly about greatest numbers. Are they better about giving players other ways to defeat the AI opponents besides just amassing huge armies/special units and razing the enemy with them. Either through sneaking actions or politics, perhaps. And by sneaking, I don't mean AOE-like "here's four units, get them safely to the other side of the map" levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not all about greater numbers.. but if the enemy comes at you with 1000 swordmen 100 cavalry units aren't going to make it (even if they are the absolute best against that unit).. the good thing about TW is that while it's a scissors/rock kinda game (spearmen for cavalry - swordmen for spearmen etc) it's more about tactics.. if you manage to flank an enemy and generally play to best of your abilities you can be outnumbered 20 to 7 and still come out victorious.. and I can tell you nothing beats winning an impossible battle on wits and carefully planned strategy! it's tough though and requires you to utilize every advantage you can.. (on harder difficulties - you can easily win a 20:7 on the easiest setting once you know the game)

 

You can also use diplomacy to great effect.. although brute force generally works best in TW games.. but there's not really a need for being sneaky - it's huge battles with thousands of soldiers on each side.. and more often than not you meet the enemy head on and take it from there.

[metadigital]

In pursuit of a more challenging, more skill-based experience, Steffen has spurned scripting and random ingredients like barbarian tribes, and built a goal-guided AI almost as flexible as a human player. The design approach allows smart fans to have a go at fashioning their own AIs. These homemade brains can even be pitted against each other on the same map. Clever stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

clickie!

[LadyCrimson]

... it's more about tactics.. if you manage to flank an enemy and generally play to best of your abilities you can be outnumbered 20 to 7 and still come out victorious.. and I can tell you nothing beats winning an impossible battle on wits and carefully planned strategy!

 

Thanks, that's nice to hear. I know such games will always be largely about numbers in general, I just like to know there's other options...or that tactics on the battlefield really matter, vs. just unit vs unit, and "charrrrrge."

 

Alexander the Great type tactics, for example...which it sounds like it's possible to emulate a bit. Good nuff.

 

but there's not really a need for being sneaky - it's huge battles with thousands of soldiers on each side.. and more often than not you meet the enemy head on and take it from there.

Yeah, the sneaky part I didn't expect too much from TW...I just love it when you can take a quirk in the game and use it to eventually beat the enemy without even raising a fist, so to speak - just wish it wasn't always because of a 'quirk.'

[alanschu]

Morale is very important in the Total War games. YOu have to keep your flanks covered, and try to get the enemy in theirs.

 

Nothing ruins your day more than a full on Cavalry charge to the back of your unit engaged in combat. And unfortunately, fear is contagious. I've sworn at my computer on more than one occasion for the weakling serfs panicing and spreading general disorder throughout my ranks.

[Musopticon?]

^Elephants+flank of spearmen+city fight=familiar much?

 

Urgh, it doesn't matter whether I know the fighting mechanics and intricacies(manifold and enjoyable) like the back of my hand(hairy and rather scarred) or not, since there always some unaccounted quirk or factor that can turn a well-planned battle upside down. Like weather or, for example, a unit sacrificing itself for victory. Or those goddamn elephants running amok. :D

[metadigital]

I think I might need to re-install Rome:Total War (without the Barbarian Invasion expansion) very soon ...

[LadyCrimson]

Like weather ...

Weather affects the battle? As in, it rains, the game accounts for muddy ground for movement or something like that? That sounds pretty cool...

[Musopticon?]

Rain slows everyone down, adds to fatigue and bow strings tend to get wet too. :D

 

Similarly, fog affects range, line of sight and accuracy, in snow it's hard to fight for a long time if you are not accustomed(certain traits or coming from a wintry enviroment), blizzards are hell, so are sandstorms and burning heat, and shallow water can kill wading units that are tired.

 

All in all, a lot of factors to account for, but they don't matter as much as they used to in Medieval Total War or Shogun.

[LadyCrimson]

I'm intrigued. Someone here told me I should get some of these games once...I haven't yet. As soon as I'm up for longer periods of pc use, I'm gettin' em. Sounds like I could have a lot of fun goofing off, with all those elements available...even if it meant not winning a mission. heheh

[metadigital]

I'm not sure what is meant by "game lock combos" but there have been games with different AI types - of course, they still weren't dynamic in response to player-actions, they'd just use different "plans", and thus were predictable before long.

 

Dynamic reactions to human actions would be nice, yes...assuming, of course, that the programming made it feel random enough in some way. If it only had one reaction to any action - where I knew if I didn't want it to build a certain unit I just had to avoid doing a certain thing to cause the AI reaction - that would be just as predictable, I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

here might be an example of what I mean. take the game Stronghold. anyone who has ever played that game knows that wheat farms + mills + bakeries = the best food production in the game. sometimes, however, you may decide to use other types of farms because you just like the aesthetic (of dairy, for instance) over wheat farms. or maybe you choose cattle because of the dual purpose (armor making).

 

if you were playing against an AI opponent (in which you both had the same tools), the AI opponet who either play stupid (intentionally) or go for every possible advantage (i.e. food would be wheat + mills + bakery).

 

it would never play a robust game with all dairy farms because that would amount to it being gimped in some way.

 

so, what I am saying is, we need AI personalities that consider things besides the mathematical advantage (he just likes building certain things because of the looks, whatever)...but still playing well and in direct response to what you are doing.

 

and with different, randomly-determined personalities emerging each time.

Carl von Clausewitz, in Vom Kreige, published in 1832