The Escapist: The Rise and Fall of Troika

[Shadowstrider]

Grom, if troika really didn't make novel stuff then obviously my argument falls down. In this instance. 'Though i believe it still holds true in general terms.

 

However, i don't think seeing three publishers make the same decision means it was a conpsiracy. I'm saying it's quite common. Particularly in engineering. Look at MRAV/Boxer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The only thing that proves, though, is that publishers want to make money.

 

They were, undoubtedly, banking on Troika's dedicated fanbase and name appeal, hoping that it would carry over when added to (popular) franchises, like D&D and WoD. Arcanum sold (moderately) well in spite of bugs and having an unrecognizable setting! Imagine how well it would sell in a Greyhawk or Vampire setting!

 

Problem is Troika didn't learn from their mistakes, but the publishers did after their initial dealings with Troika - Troika failed because of Troika, and trying to push blame elsewhere is ridiculous.

 

"But Troika was creative!" That's great, but the publishers learned that their creativity came at a cost of naivety. I'm reminded of a nice quote from General Patton:

"Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets" - George S. Patton

 

Game Developers need creativity to succeed, sure, but they also need to build on a solid foundation and have the clarity of mind to release quality products.

[Sand]

Wow, I am actually agreeing with you, Shadowstrider. Well said.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

He's speaking sense...

[Walsingham]

I'll agree it needs to be tempered. I'm just saying that if you get into bed with a Creative outfit you need to be willing to put up with a certain degree of weirdnesss as teh price of their excellence. like if you date some dizzy artist or employ a prima donna. Do it with open eyes.

[Sand]

Or with a shocky monkey.

[Volourn]

"I'm just saying that if you get into bed with a Creative outfit you need to be willing to put up with a certain degree of weirdnesss as teh price of their excellence."

 

No, you don't. Not when you are a publsiher who can just find an equally talented developer house who can make a quality game that won't turn off gamers including the actual intended target.

 

If, as TOEE (and POR2 too) proved... if you can't sell a turn based D&D game based on popular modules/old games to its actual fanbases then perhaps the problem is the game's quality; not the customer base or the publisher. not counting the first couple of weeks/firts month where the stupid D&D fanboys like myself who pretty much buy the majority of D&D games no matter what. Espicially since Atari has actually published successful D&D games. Go figure. *shrug*

[SteveThaiBinh]

I suppose if publishers feel they can get a decent product elsewhere, it's fair enough that they'd abandon a creative but 'difficult' developer like Troika. I've always thought of creativity as more fragile and more scarce than business sense, and I don't think it's so easy to find another developer who can create atmosphere as good as VtM:B, for example - that really could have been as big a hit as Kotor. So it's a shame that Atari couldn't knuckle down and do what needed to be done to help Troika release their game in good condition - that would have been the win-win scenario. If you are a publisher, the quality of the game that you release is ultimately your responsibity, of course, though I do understand that Atari had their own money problems.

 

With Troika it really was a case of 'three strikes and you're out', and Obsidian only have one strike left, which is not so good. Does SEGA have money worries?

 

It might be better if more developers got into producing smaller expansion packs or premium modules for products that have already sold well. If the business model works, that is...I would have bought a Troika-produced premium mod for NWN or Oblivion. I might even have bought Dungeon Siege 2 in order to play a Troika-produced expansion pack. That sort of thing.

[Dark_Raven]

Obsidian doesn't have any strikes against them, that is just funny. Their two games sold quite well plus they have a happy strong fan base nehind them.

[metadigital]

Yeah, what are the strikes against Obsidian?

[Sand]

To use the whole Baseball analogy, KotOR 2 was a foul ball, NWN 2 is a single (possibly a double), and well we will see with their third game. No strikes, technically, yet.

[alanschu]

A foul ball is a strike.

[Sand]

Not always. You can't strike out on foul balls.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I don't mean strikes in the sense of having produced bad games, on the part of either Troika or Obsidian. Both Arcanum and VtM:B were really enjoyable and interesting games. Plus I love NWN2 - this must be my fifth or sixth time through since I got it. :D

 

I really meant the perception that they couldn't release games in good, finished condition. ToEE was really buggy, VtM:B had a game-stopping bug on many systems and stuttered badly on systems that should have been able to handle it easily. Kotor 2 had bugs and glitches even on its console version, and a rushed ending that made the game seem incomplete. NWN2 has plenty of bugs, too, and there are similar complaints on the bioware forums about crashes and bugs and that the game demands a more powerful system than seems justified by the graphics. It's all in all of the reviews.

 

I'm not saying that everything I've just said is completely true, let alone fair in my opinion, I'm saying that I think the perception is out there that Obsidian have released two incomplete games in a row, and the failure to release complete, polished games was part of what did for Troika.

[alanschu]

Not always.  You can't strike out on foul balls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unless you happen to be playing for some friends in a slo-pitch game and don't really understand the rules since you're used to playing softball.

 

I guess then, to apply the analogy, it still counts as a strike, but your company will never fold.

[Pop]

I try to think of NWN2 more as a pop fly. Kotor is a foul tip that could have very well been a line drive.

 

But really, I think it really depends on what kind of pitch it was in our analogy. This Alien game could be a screwball, or a curve, or something. We haven't really determined that yet.

[alanschu]

KOTOR 2 and NWN2 would probably have been underhand lofts

 

Maybe Obsidian is like that fastball player that struggles in slopitch!

[metadigital]

Listen, despite what the moaning fora might lead you to believe, NwN2 is not going to be a negative game in any way or form. It'll be a shining, glowing endorsement of their talents, building on the excellent word-of-mouth runaway success of Bioware's original. KotOR:TSL, likewise, isn't going to even be remembered except as part of the whole KotOR-cυm-Star Wars (gaming) phenomenon. Even now, the most vociferous of forumites would be pleased to play through it again, I'm sure.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

To use the whole Baseball analogy, KotOR 2 was a foul ball, NWN 2 is a single (possibly a double), and well we will see with their third game.  No strikes, technically, yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

NWN2 from a technical perspective on release was about a strike as it gets, tho' the obsidian boys had a good design, good story and so on, thus all is forgiven it seems.

 

Not always.  You can't strike out on foul balls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unless you happen to be playing for some friends in a slo-pitch game and don't really understand the rules since you're used to playing softball.

 

I guess then, to apply the analogy, it still counts as a strike, but your company will never fold.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Obsidian FOLD, I agree they've too strong a name, and too good a talent to do so, from top to bottom...

[Volourn]

"I don't think it's so easy to find another developer who can create atmosphere as good as VtM:B, for example - that really could have been as big a hit as Kotor. So it's a shame that Atari couldn't knuckle down and do what needed to be done to help Troika release their game in good condition - that would have been the win-win scenario."

 

Atari had nothing to do with BL, and the Troika game they did published lacked any worthwhile atmosphere.

 

BL, on the other hand, was a good game that should have been rgeta if it wasn't for crappy combat and bugs up the wazoo. Don't forget that Atyari gave Troika TWO extensions, and Troika played tiddlywinks (or didn't) depending on who you ask with BL.

 

As for Obsidian. i have compalints about KOTOR2; but overlal it was a good game. About equal with the original. With NWN2, I had a favorable first impression; but for me perosnally now; the mere mention of NWN2 disgusts me.

[metadigital]

I must admit I have trouble keeping up with your mood swings, Volo.

[Hurlshort]

Uh, but sales are the only important thing here, so KotOR 2 was a success and it's a bit early to tell on NWN2, but it seems to be selling well.

 

That's what keeps companies in business, not forumite opinions.

[alanschu]

Listen, despite what the moaning fora might lead you to believe, NwN2 is not going to be a negative game in any way or form. It'll be a shining, glowing endorsement of their talents, building on the excellent word-of-mouth runaway success of Bioware's original. KotOR:TSL, likewise, isn't going to even be remembered except as part of the whole KotOR-cυm-Star Wars (gaming) phenomenon. Even now, the most vociferous of forumites would be pleased to play through it again, I'm sure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I would agree that neither KOTOR2 nore NWN2 were strikes as well. The solid poke over the in field to get you in the game

[Volourn]

"must admit I have trouble keeping up with your mood swings, Volo."

 

Why? How is it confusing? My feelings about KOTOR2 has NEVER changed; and my reasons for my 'change of heart' in regards to NWN2 should be quite clear by now.

 

R00fles!

 

And, yeah, both KOTOR2 and NWN2 are successes sales wise. That isn't shocking. Sequels to already successful games tend to do that.

 

D0uble R00fles!

Edited January 1, 2007 by Volourn

[SteveThaiBinh]

Atari had nothing to do with BL, and the Troika game they did published lacked any worthwhile atmosphere.

My mistake. Activision then.

 

I think it's hard to say whether a game is selling well, even if you have sales figures (which I don't think we do for NWN2, yet). 'Well' has to be defined in terms of the publisher's expectations, and who can say what they were?

[alanschu]

True. If Troika/Activision only expected 50k sales (unlikely) with Bloodlines, then you could easily argue it was a success.