The Escapist: The Rise and Fall of Troika

[Gromnir]

I don't know of many jobs that are harder...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can, quite easily.

 

Go install flooring, carpet is particularly strenuous and difficult. It has all the issues that game development has, AND physically intense.

 

Doctor, lawyer, nurse, hell baby sitting is more difficult than game development.

 

Get some perspective, game development isn't that tough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

roofing supply were the most stressful and strenuous job we ever had. gets paid by square, so work with a bad crew or in bad weather and you get screwed. throwing and catching 40-60lb stacks o' tile on roof where it gets to be 120 degrees in california summer... and 'cause you is getting paid by square, many/most co-workers is on speed. worstest job we ever had.

 

kiddie prison guard were stressful, but not strenous. were counter-intuitive, but high security were the least stressful unit.

 

we liked being office manager at firm 'cause it were less real work than were our other job, but we knew that our skills were getting rusty the longer we did the management/organizational stuff.

 

teaching were easiest and least stressful.

 

current job can be very stressful... is much easier/better ways to make similar or better money.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[metadigital]

Sorry but, no matter how you badger me I still can't tell you how long it's gunna take me to FIND a bug, I can try and estimate how long it will take, this is done by taking the proposed problem, possible cause, and time to fix. That doesn't mean that you'd know straight away, a good coder generally can do this estimation very well.

 

The games industry doesn't work to exacts, why do you think so many companies that can, DO work to a "It'll be done when it's done" policy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rationalize much?

Nah, he's just paying lip-service to Mr Mortis's "game as art" elitism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*snip most of the sanctimonious drivel*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why, exactly, aren't games art?

 

Mass production?  Multiple cooks in the kitchen?  External forces and influence?  All of these affect all forms of art most of the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't implying that there was no art in the video game medium (apologies if that is what you took away from my comment); I was more laughing at the "games HAVE to be art or else they are WoW / Britney Spears / popular therefore not culture".

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

You guys crack me up...

[Mortis Nai]

Sorry but, no matter how you badger me I still can't tell you how long it's gunna take me to FIND a bug, I can try and estimate how long it will take, this is done by taking the proposed problem, possible cause, and time to fix. That doesn't mean that you'd know straight away, a good coder generally can do this estimation very well.

 

The games industry doesn't work to exacts, why do you think so many companies that can, DO work to a "It'll be done when it's done" policy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rationalize much?

Nah, he's just paying lip-service to Mr Mortis's "game as art" elitism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*snip most of the sanctimonious drivel*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why, exactly, aren't games art?

 

Mass production?  Multiple cooks in the kitchen?  External forces and influence?  All of these affect all forms of art most of the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't implying that there was no art in the video game medium (apologies if that is what you took away from my comment); I was more laughing at the "games HAVE to be art or else they are WoW / Britney Spears / popular therefore not culture".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sanctimonious drivel? Nice... Why do I feel like I am back in Daycare?

[Tale]

Sanctimonious drivel? Nice... Why do I feel like I am back in Daycare?

I agree with video games as art, but the whole "I weep for you" thing did have a bit of self-righteousness to it.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Tale

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"I don't know of many jobs that are harder..."

 

Medical proffesion for starters. one mistake can lead to causing death or serious sickness, massive alwsuits, loss of jobs, or even jailtime. One mistake. It also takes upwards of a decade to become a doctor in the first place. Firefighetrs, police officers, lawyers, soliders, and a host of others are much more difficult.

 

Medical proffession... Agree'd that's one hell of a job.

 

It's interesting but all the jobs you've currently mentioned have been in regards to that of risk to personal safety and other folks safety. I don't discount that one bit all those jobs are tough jobs. In many ways.

 

btw, I'm not saying game devlopment is easy. It isn't. If it was, there wouldn't be so many horror stories about failures. But, that doens't mean it's super difficult either.

 

I really was thinking more about the talent involved, the dedication and concentration required to make a successful product, the business side is very much like any other in alot of respects.

 

The hard part of the games industry is keeping up with an ever evolving always progressing, and always changing hardware/software enviroment.

 

There is alot to learn and just as you think you crack one thing a new thing exists...

 

LMFAO Where did I say otherwise? Again, do you really expect me to shed a tear because the poor lttle developer is so weak? I surely hope not.

 

Someone has to give a developer a break first then, possibily they will earn alot of money.

 

And?

 

PC and Console development are different... Different hardware setups of PC's impact software dramatically.

 

It is weak willed. BIO thought thy were being screwed by Interplay. They left. Guess what? They're still in business while Interplay is hanging on for dear life and haven't made a game in what? 3 years? R00fles!

 

Bioware acted in a sensible manner they had a certain percentage of a product, and the ability to take that product elsewhere, to Atari. Due to the fact Interplay had funded development already it was a WIN WIN situation for Atari, it really did work out great for the involved parties.

 

Again, have some ballz. You need ballz to succeed in the business world - game development or otherwise. If you act like a doormat; you''ll be treated like a doormat.

 

Bioware were in a good position, had atari turned them away they would have been in a whole other position... But that was very unlikely due to the success bioware had, had... They're indeed one of the success stories of the games industry.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I don't know of many jobs that are harder...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can, quite easily.

 

Go install flooring, carpet is particularly strenuous and difficult. It has all the issues that game development has, AND physically intense.

 

Doctor, lawyer, nurse, hell baby sitting is more difficult than game development.

 

Get some perspective, game development isn't that tough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

ABSOLUTELY CRAZY MAN. Well except for the obvious Doctors, nurses crap, baby sitting tho' LOL, installing flooring LMFAO.

[Tale]

It's air conditioned when you're putting tile down. That's awesome.

[Mortis Nai]

Sanctimonious drivel? Nice... Why do I feel like I am back in Daycare?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with video games as art, but the whole "I weep for you" thing did have a bit of self-righteousness to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In all fairness it was origionaly:

 

"Then I f*cking weep for you, your children and the IQ of future generations... Lord save me from this f*cking souless and interlectualy void culture, rain down 40 f*cking days and 40 f*cking nights and wash the earth clean of these retards!"

 

So I toned it back a little.

 

"

Edited December 29, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[kirottu]

Sanctimonious drivel? Nice... Why do I feel like I am back in Daycare?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with video games as art, but the whole "I weep for you" thing did have a bit of self-righteousness to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In all fairness it was origionaly:

 

"Then I f*cking weep for you, your children and the IQ of future generations... Lord save me from this f*cking souless and interlectualy void culture, rain down 40 f*cking days and 40 f*cking nights and wash the earth clean of these retards!"

 

So I toned it back a little.

 

"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes yes, we got it already. Because you like certain thing it makes smarter than person who likes something else.

[Mortis Nai]

Yes yes, we got it already. Because you like certain thing it makes smarter than person who likes something else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That should be:

 

"Yes yes, we get it already. Because you like a certain thing, it makes you smarter than someone whom likes something else."

 

or even more precise:

 

"yes we get it already. Because you like something that someone else does not, it makes you interlectualy superior, we get it already."

 

or just:

 

"We get it, you think your better than everyone else."

 

I figure if I am going to be pinned as an Elitist jerk then I may as well go the whole distance.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Tale]

I think I'm better than everyone else. They think it too.

[kirottu]

Ok, but you misspelled "intellectually".

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Hey guys can we try and keep on topic a bit... Geez.

[Mortis Nai]

Ok, but you misspelled "intellectually".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Its a pre-Shakespearean derivative spelling... because that's how damned l33t I am.

 

[Gromnir]

Hey guys can we try and keep on topic a bit... Geez.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

after much backtracking by some, we finally gots everybody to agree that troika were not very good at the business of making games. pretty much ends debate on actual issues. the "woe is troika" nonsense has been put to rest. now all folks have to talk 'bout in this thread is the tangential stuff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Hey guys can we try and keep on topic a bit... Geez.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

after much backtracking by some, we finally gots everybody to agree that troika were not very good at the business of making games. pretty much ends debate on actual issues. the "woe is troika" nonsense has been put to rest. now all folks have to talk 'bout in this thread is the tangential stuff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*Sigh* but trokia made some nice games, hence the dispute.

 

Sometime I really wonder WHY you have not tried your hand in the games industry in a manager role, after all, you make out like you know it all

Edited December 29, 2006 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Dark_Raven]

TSL's ending is finished. It just wasn't done well. There's a HUGE difference. Besdies, out of all my complaints of KOTOR2, the ending is the very least of them. In fact, it didn't bother me all that much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TSL end was far from being done.

 

The majority of complaints about Kotor2 is the ending. Try reading the K2 boards once in a while.

 

R00fles!

[Tale]

I thought TSL's ending was quite done. It's just easy to overlook because it requires you to go through specific dialogue options with Kreia.

[Gromnir]

Hey guys can we try and keep on topic a bit... Geez.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

after much backtracking by some, we finally gots everybody to agree that troika were not very good at the business of making games. pretty much ends debate on actual issues. the "woe is troika" nonsense has been put to rest. now all folks have to talk 'bout in this thread is the tangential stuff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*Sigh* but trokia made some nice games, hence the dispute.

 

Sometime I really wonder WHY you have not tried your hand in the games industry in a manager role, after all, you make out like you know it all

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

know it all? no... and yet again, THAT is the point. Gromnir not know it all, but we seem to know more than did timmy 'bout some very basic aspects of running a business.

 

besides which, we wouldn't wanna take a pay cut.

 

and no, there were never a dispute 'bout whether or not troika made games you thought were good... that is simply where you retreated. is no way possible to argue your subjective belief. the article that inspired thread were a "woe is troika" article... troika got screwed. troika didn't get screwed. troika got 3 opportunities to lose publisher money. most developers we has spoken with would happily breaks at least 8 or 9 of the 10 commandments for 1 such chance, much less three.

 

whether or not NatS likes troika games had little to do with article or thread... you is off-topic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

besides which, we wouldn't wanna take a pay cut.

 

Then you must be a very very successful person earning in the region of $70,000+

 

Look Trokia did the best with what they had to make the best quality products they could under the circumstance, business wise yeah they scrwed up, but that shouldn't be seen to tarnish the products as they're some of the best games I have played... Some of the stuff in there really is golden.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Some of the stuff in there really is golden.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes.

 

Like the brothels.

[Gromnir]

"Then you must be a very very successful person earning in the region of $70,000+"

 

thank you.

 

 

"Look Trokia did the best with what they had to make the best quality products they could under the circumstance, business wise yeah they scrwed up"

 

then they really DIDN'T do the best they could have... 'less you presume that their business failures on 3 different projects were unavoidable... which is pretty much insane.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mortis Nai]

"Then you must be a very very successful person earning in the region of $70,000+"

 

thank you.

 

 

"Look Trokia did the best with what they had to make the best quality products they could under the circumstance, business wise yeah they scrwed up"

 

then they really DIDN'T do the best they could have... 'less you presume that their business failures on 3 different projects were unavoidable... which is pretty much insane.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Arcanum, ToEE & Bloodlines were all excellent Games that sold quite well.

 

The Games themselves were a Success.

 

Troika's downfall had nothing to do with "Lack of Sales because they were bad games" and had everything to do with mishandled funds and problems with the Publishers.

 

Troika was unrealistically managed:

 

Employment with Troika Games will also get you the following:

 

    * A highly competitive salary

      Retirement plan with company matching

      Medical, dental and supplemental insurance plans

      2 weeks paid vacation per year

      PROFIT SHARING! - get a share of the games you help create

      A fun and relaxed work environment

      2 console systems and a library of games to play

      A kitchen stocked with free sodas and snacks

      Pizza luncheons and gaming nights

      A close-knit development team dedicated to creating the highest caliber games

      An ongoing commitment to making your work experience more creative, fun and fulfilling

 

Troika attempted to create a Developers haven, where people whom loved games could be with others whom truly loved games and they could all work in a less strangling, soul crushing, hyper commercialized industry.

 

There was every chance that they could have made it, after all EA was originally founded on the smiler principals before it evolved into the Corporate Giant it is today... *Grumbles many unkind words about Larry Probst, The Video game antichrist.*

 

Unfortunately they made a handful of big decisions that truly worked against them, due to inexperience dealing with the business aspect of the industry.

 

Troika failure as a corporation is absolutely no mark against their Games.

 

They were overly Dependant upon their Publishers, which meant that they were in a position that they could be taken advantage of... and when have you ever heard of a "Nice" publisher?

 

You know, I would love to arrange for a "Kick Larry Probst in the nuts" day as a national holiday, where by for one day, every Employee of EA could kick Mr Probst in the nuts... the Holiday would be held between 9am and 10pm in honor of "Crunch time."

Edited December 30, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Gromnir]

"Arcanum, ToEE & Bloodlines were all excellent Games that sold quite well."

 

numbers don't back that pov. lack o' sequels or expansions, if nothing else, should convince you that your belief is faulty, but we doubt it will.

 

and as tough as it is to believe, our recollection is that atari were proven correct. toee ended up being the biggest seller for troika. fans of d&d bought in spite of poor reviews and terrible feedback. atari were counting on fact that initial sales that came in before end of quarter would soften blow of releasing a bad game.

 

is a shame too... 'cause the turn-based combat in toee were pretty good. sadly, 'cause toee were a failure, now no publisher will touch tb combat in a d&d game. is typical publisher overreacting... much like the way publishers reacted to failure of ps:t. baby goes out with bathwater.

 

HA! Good Fun!