In America, we are electing our Congressmen

[Sand]

you mean "the majority of Republican politicians," right?

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course. Those are the only Republicans I worry about.

Edited November 10, 2006 by Sand

[Dark Moth]

Teaching Intelligent Design in public schools is one of them.  Intelligent Design is Creationism and that comes straight out of the Bible, thusly religion.  There were a number of Republicans here in Iowa that stated if they were elected they were push for replacing the teaching of evolution with Intelligent Design.  Most notable being the republican lieutenant governor candidate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But intelligent design is only the only gripe you have that's "religious" in nature. Besides Ha-I mean, Sand, creationism is not something that's exclusive to the Bible. But you already knew that. Right?

Of course.  Those are the only Republicans I worry about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could have fooled me. You've never made any distinction between the two until now.

[taks]

no kidding. ah, who cares, let the sheep graze.

 

taks

[Calax]

dang... I guess hades is against the flying spagetti monster.

[Sand]

Doesn't matter if Creationism is a part of other religions and such. It is part of religious dogma and therefore has no place in public schools. That is the bottom line here. If you guys want to nitpick, fine, but that is my view on it and it will not change.

[WITHTEETH]

Doesn't matter if Creationism is a part of other religions and such.  It is part of religious dogma and therefore has no place in public schools.  That is the bottom line here.  If you guys want to nitpick, fine, but that is my view on it and it will not change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right Sand.

 

Creationism has already been banned back in 1987 by the supreme court. Intelligent design is closet creationism, the only difference is that they just deny its the abrahamic god there talking about. In fact it should be labeled intelligent Design Creationism. All the theories have been debunked. They have no testable hypothesis'. This is not science clearly. "teach the controversy" is a clever slogan, but a wasteful project that teaches kids how not to do science if anything.

 

To look out at the sky and say this world is so complex there must be a god is not the best argument. And Evolution doesn't happen by random chance period. If you take the eye and fit bits and pieces in a jar then shake, it does not turn out to be an eye and this is not evolution. If this is your thought on science then obviously you went to a Christian school.

 

Micheal Behe's irreducible Complexity theory has been knocked down. The 2nd law of thermodynamic has been proven to work with evolution. The eye has been proven to have evolved. A banana being the atheist worst nightmare is absurd.

 

I find it quite nerve racking when i see Christianity trying to have its say on what science is and is not. Scientifically i think they might have some delusion about reality.

 

Also Christianity is a belief of faith, if you don't believe me read about Doubting Thomas in your bible. To bring evidence about your religion would make your faith disappear thus how would you then go to heaven if your father, spirit and the son all say the criterion is faith? Good luck.

Edited November 11, 2006 by WITHTEETH

[Calax]

where's the video of the guy trying to get "lies out of our text books" with evolution and geological change?

[taks]

Doesn't matter if Creationism is a part of other religions and such.  It is part of religious dogma and therefore has no place in public schools.  That is the bottom line here.  If you guys want to nitpick, fine, but that is my view on it and it will not change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so, i guess we also have to toss all laws based on the 10 commandments, right? thou shalt not kill and all that...

 

taks

[taks]

Creationism has already been banned back in 1987 by the supreme court.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you need to check your facts on this. the supreme court did not ban teaching creationism. it merely struck down a law that required teaching it if evolution was taught. i.e. they didn't say you couldn't teach it, they said you couldn't force schools to teach it alone. edwards vs. aguillard.

 

while certainly the argument that creationism shouldn't be taught in schools as science fact is legit, muddying the waters with false statements doesn't help your argument.

 

taks

[taks]

Doesn't matter if Creationism is a part of other religions and such.  It is part of religious dogma and therefore has no place in public schools.  That is the bottom line here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this statement is utterly nonsense. other religions are discussed in public schools. it is a simple fact that religion has dominated the entire history of modern man. to remove all reference of it from public schools would be a disservice to history.

 

for someone who seems so bent on the high road of logic and reasoning, you seem to understand neither.

 

taks

[Dark Moth]

Doesn't matter if Creationism is a part of other religions and such.  It is part of religious dogma and therefore has no place in public schools.  That is the bottom line here.  If you guys want to nitpick, fine, but that is my view on it and it will not change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then you'd have to ban all religious courses from schools. All religious study groups from public schools, etc. All wearing of religious symbols and such. Not to mention any celebration of Christmas, Halloween, etc. And no learning of about other religions as well, as taks pointed out.

[Guard Dog]

Then you'd have to ban all religious courses from schools.  All religious study groups from public schools, etc.  All wearing of religious symbols and such.  Not to mention any celebration of Christmas, Halloween, etc.  And no learning of about other religions as well, as taks pointed out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heck Moth, that IS happening. Just last month a high school football coach in Live Oak FL was fired for leading a prayer on the sideline for an injured player. Someone in the stands took offence at seeing high school students praying at a school function and either was a lawyer or hired a lawyer and went after the principal and the coach.

 

Reading back on this thread you have been called, Bilbe Boy, Fundie, and a few other nasty derrogatory terms by a few posters. When did Christian become a four letter word? What is it about that religion that raises so much ire? I am proud to call myself a Christian and I insult no one and hold malice towards none. Why is it those who do not believe in it, it is simply not enough to not believe themselves. They cannot suffer others to believe it. Case in point, Michael Newdow in San Francisco. It is not enough for him to just be an atheist. He cannot sleep at night knowing school children are acknowldging the existance of God when the say the Pledge of Alligence in the morning.

 

Even Sand, who seems like a pretty reasonable guy gets upset at the very notion of teaching I.D. in school as an alternate theory of the origins of life. No one of any intelligence can deny the process of evolution. And the theory that man and apes may have had a common ancestor has merit. But no evolutionary chain from single cell organisims to higher forms of life has ever been established. That is the basis of the theory of Irreducible Complexity upon which I.D. is based as Sand correctly points out. He says it has been discreditied and is is derided by the scientific community at large as relying on the old "God-of-the-Gaps" idea. But, IMHOP that is simply a straw man argument. The Avida artificial life program at MSU has gone a long way towards proving I.C. and it is not universally rejected. "Mainstream" science reacts violently whenever an idea arises that challenges what it believes to be canon. Clarence Darrow argued that in the Scopes trial in 1924 that laid the way for evolution to be taught in schools to begin with.

 

The point I was coming to before getting sidetracked was that I'm finding more and more hostility to christian beliefs in society and even here on this board. Right now the topic is treated with scorn, but hate usually follows scorn. And after hate comes gunshots.

[Calax]

right now Evolution has the most backup that it is happening/has happened. Intelligent design feels, at it's core, like the religious groups (mainly of the christian denomonations) are trying to say "Evolution happens but only because an imposible to prove force is acting upon the evolving creatures in ways we can't even begin to catagorize, understand and measure, so by golly it's gotta be happening!"

 

I'm one of the more... antireligious types on this board and find it unappealing that people are trying to have Evolution turned into "God did it, by making you grow an 11th useless toe"

 

And mothie, the exact reason that ID shouldn't be taught in schools is because ID requires the students to A) believe that there is a god B) believe that god is not death or some wierd gothy person who wants a variety of things, and C) the metaphysical part of ID has literally NO scientific back up other than "well we can't have evolved that without a reason... gotta be god."

 

the study of religion is also a study of politics, it should be taught so that people can see motivation and understand what they other people in the world are trying to get you to believe.

 

Religious study groups are generally not connected to the school in any official capacity other than using an empty classroom or the library.

 

Christmas isn't even christs birthday so I'm not going into that. Halloween has been divorced from its religious origin except in the most.... obscure ways.

 

Symbols you can get rid of... except say the swastika which when reversed is the bhuddist symbol for life. You can also toss "under god" "in god we trust" "OMFG" and about a dozen other explitives in the trash heap.

 

and for kicks:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dT00pxyHBIw (btw it's about 3 hours long )

 

oh and btw... We are WAY WAY off topic here.

[Guard Dog]

(btw it's about 3 hours long )

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heh, that's 2 hours 58 min past my attention span!

[Dark Moth]

right now Evolution has the most backup that it is happening/has happened. Intelligent design feels, at it's core, like the religious groups (mainly of the christian denomonations) are trying to say "Evolution happens but only because an imposible to prove force is acting upon the evolving creatures in ways we can't even begin to catagorize, understand and measure, so by golly it's gotta be happening!"

 

I'm one of the more... antireligious types on this board and find it unappealing that people are trying to have Evolution turned into "God did it, by making you grow an 11th useless toe"

 

And mothie, the exact reason that ID shouldn't be taught in schools is because ID requires the students to A) believe that there is a god B) believe that god is not death or some wierd gothy person who wants a variety of things, and C) the metaphysical part of ID has literally NO scientific back up other than "well we can't have evolved that without a reason... gotta be god."

 

the study of religion is also a study of politics, it should be taught so that people can see motivation and understand what they other people in the world are trying to get you to believe.

 

Religious study groups are generally not connected to the school in any official capacity other than using an empty classroom or the library.

 

Christmas isn't even christs birthday so I'm not going into that. Halloween has been divorced from its religious origin except in the most.... obscure ways.

 

Symbols you can get rid of... except say the swastika which when reversed is the bhuddist symbol for life. You can also toss "under god" "in god we trust" "OMFG" and about a dozen other explitives in the trash heap.

 

oh and btw... We are WAY WAY off topic here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not always a God, you could believe in a higher form of intelligence (aliens) that created life on this planet, or inter-dimensional beings of greater consciousness than humans but not 'Gods'. I don't know what the hell you're trying to say in point B (are you drunk, by any chance?), but as for point C, it's not scientific to think that something happens 'just because', everything has a reason. But that's more philosophical actually, (something that is taught in schools!) As for religion being taught, you're wrong. Because alternate religious doctrine can be taught for history, as well as for cultural understanding. The same thing happened when I took a World Cultures course in High School.

 

Religious study groups are not connected, but they are still sanctioned, and they of course have the school's approval. You want to remove all religion from school, you got to get rid of those too. You're point about Christmas not actually being Christ's birthday is useless, too, because it's still a celebration of a birthday of a religious icon. Thus, a religious occasion. And even though Halloween's religious roots have been "divorced", the fact remains that it still has religious roots, and some people still do celebrate it religiously. Finally, as for symbols, while I know it's a workplace, there's no good reason why a school should have to ban religious symbols, especially common phrases like "OMG!", which borderlines on silliness. Public schools are supposed to be an incorporation of ideas, not a repression of ideas, dammit! What is this, Fahrenheit 451?

 

Yeah, we are way OT. How the hell did that happen, anyway? Must have been when Sand accused Republicans of being fanatical theocrats (in so many words).

Edited November 11, 2006 by Dark Moth

[Dark Moth]

Reading back on this thread you have been called, Bible Boy, Fundie, and a few other nasty derogatory terms by a few posters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, just one poster, actually. Most posters here actually tend to be more respectful and restrained than that. Even still, insults like that don't affect me in the least. They actually prompt me only to laugh at the poster who sinks to such childish levels. Looking back, I probably could have reported him, but I decided not too. ^_^

[Calax]

B was working on the point that in highschool there is invariably some kid/cult/small religion of people who are emo goths with a mad on to die and love everything having to do with death. Said higher being would be working against it's own ends if it created life and made creatures evolve into a hardier creature.

 

Christmas is more about santa than christ anymore. Halloween is a day that gives children the chance to dress up and get more cavities than they really need. Easter is an extremly religious holiday and we get I think a three day weekend or they match it with spring break.

 

And the reason that christian dogma/beliefs/whathaveyou are not taught in school is because, quite simply, THEY THINK YOU ALREADY KNOW!

 

you have no blasted clue how many classes where people were constantly referring to a couple of bible stories and I had no idea what on earth they were talking about.

 

 

I think the arguement boils down to this, Either we have to make a completly sanitized environment with every thing devoid of any religious context and/or association (ha fat chance!) or we have to represent each and every single religion in equal amounts of time and effort and depth (again ha FAT CHANCE!)

[Lucius]

Well, religion in school is fine, but it belongs in religion class. That's how it is here, and thank ****ing hippie christ for that, I've never ever heard a word about this creationism nonsense in all the years I had biology for instance. :joy:

 

Oh and seriously, do kids in the US public schools have to say this pledge every goddamn morning?

 

Oh and it was actually bible freak and jesus boy, get your insults straight! :D

Edited November 11, 2006 by Lucius

[Guard Dog]

To Calex: So we're screwed either way?

 

To Lucian: I stand corrected

 

To Lare: Thank you for illustrating my point. The biggest problem with the world today is, humans are losing the ability to live and let live. The antireligous zelots are becoming as fanatical as muslim suicide bombers.

[Pidesco]

Humans were never the type to live and let live. So we can't lose what we already didn't have.

[Sand]

Doesn't matter if Creationism is a part of other religions and such.  It is part of religious dogma and therefore has no place in public schools.  That is the bottom line here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this statement is utterly nonsense. other religions are discussed in public schools. it is a simple fact that religion has dominated the entire history of modern man. to remove all reference of it from public schools would be a disservice to history.

 

for someone who seems so bent on the high road of logic and reasoning, you seem to understand neither.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Discussing religion is not the same as "teaching" dogma. You can teach the Historical record of various religions and their impact on society and civilization, but not conduct services like doing a school prayer. In fact I am all for teaching critical thinking about religion, all religions that way an individual can find one that suits his or her spiritual needs if he or she has any, but at the point of actually practicing the religion that is a private affair.

Edited November 11, 2006 by Sand

[Sand]

Well, just one poster, actually.  Most posters here actually tend to be more respectful and restrained than that.  Even still, insults like that don't affect me in the least.  They actually prompt me only to laugh at the poster who sinks to such childish levels.  Looking back, I probably could have reported him, but I decided not too.  ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I am trying to be more restrained in my own comments. I really don't want to offend anybody here with my ranting.

[WITHTEETH]

Creationism has already been banned back in 1987 by the supreme court.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you need to check your facts on this. the supreme court did not ban teaching creationism. it merely struck down a law that required teaching it if evolution was taught. i.e. they didn't say you couldn't teach it, they said you couldn't force schools to teach it alone. edwards vs. aguillard.

 

while certainly the argument that creationism shouldn't be taught in schools as science fact is legit, muddying the waters with false statements doesn't help your argument.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You get high on proving people wrong dont you tak? Well congrats, i wasn't aware they could still teach it.

Edited November 11, 2006 by WITHTEETH

[WITHTEETH]

Well, just one poster, actually.  Most posters here actually tend to be more respectful and restrained than that.  Even still, insults like that don't affect me in the least.  They actually prompt me only to laugh at the poster who sinks to such childish levels.  Looking back, I probably could have reported him, but I decided not too.  ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I am trying to be more restrained in my own comments. I really don't want to offend anybody here with my ranting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haven't you been banned before for trolling Dark Math?

[Sand]

Well, just one poster, actually.  Most posters here actually tend to be more respectful and restrained than that.  Even still, insults like that don't affect me in the least.  They actually prompt me only to laugh at the poster who sinks to such childish levels.  Looking back, I probably could have reported him, but I decided not too.  ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I am trying to be more restrained in my own comments. I really don't want to offend anybody here with my ranting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haven't you been banned before for trolling Dark Math?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Banned no, warned yes and it was a well deserved warning which is why I have shown more restraint in my views and postings. I think he is commenting more of Lucius comments than my own.

Edited November 11, 2006 by Sand