Terrorist attack in Spain

[Dark Lord Revan]

Hi all,

I just wanted to see how Europe is reacting to the terrorist attacks in Spain. The American media is covering this 24-7 so I can't imagine what it must be like on the other side of the Atlantic. Alot of people here are concerned that the terrorists have adapted and have gotten better at evading security. Is this the possible catalyst that awakens islamic terrorism in Europe? Do you think it will be confined to just the countries that supported the Iraq War or will it spill over into "the West" in general making France, Germany, and other countries that did not support the war future targets?

[Atreides]

I think there were massive rallies around Spain and foreign ministers have sent their condolences. At the moment I don't think they're certain who did it (ETA or foreign terrorists) though.

[tripleRRR]

Probably Basque seperatists, though I had thought they were all but gone.

 

 

TripleRRR

[samm]

Do you think it will be confined to just the countries that supported the Iraq War or will it spill over into "the West" in general making France, Germany, and other countries that did not support the war future targets?

terrorism isn't restricted to iraq-war supporters. it's not meant to punish, but to destroy lifes in a way that attracts attention.

 

furthermore, the terrorism-theme isn't as hyped here as it seems to be in the usa. there's something about it in the papers every day, mostly about the israel-palestine conflict, but no 24/7 reports. thank god for that, spreading needless fear does no good, as it creates aggression, as seen before...

[Dark Lord Revan]

Do you think it will be confined to just the countries that supported the Iraq War or will it spill over into "the West" in general making France, Germany, and other countries that did not support the war future targets?

terrorism isn't restricted to iraq-war supporters. it's not meant to punish, but to destroy lifes in a way that attracts attention.

 

furthermore, the terrorism-theme isn't as hyped here as it seems to be in the usa. there's something about it in the papers every day, mostly about the israel-palestine conflict, but no 24/7 reports. thank god for that, spreading needless fear does no good, as it creates aggression, as seen before...

And what would you be referring to there....?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I think calling it "Europe's 9/11" is an exageration. We're talking of a country which has already had to deal with sucessive terrorist threats for many years, by the hand of ETA. And the tragedy that happened in Spain is hardly comparable to that of the WTC, both in magnitude, casualties or even of changing views on terrorism. And besides, is there anything that could change people's views on terrorism after 9/11? I think most people became unfeeling towards this kind of situation after the WTC deal. This bombing in Spain seems almost mundane in comparison (and thank god for that, as it would be terrible if it was any worse).

[Monte Carlo]

Yes, Americans seem to think that Terrorism began on the 11th September, 2001.

 

Not to (in any way) belittle those dreadful events but apart from perhaps some disgruntled anarcho-leftists (say the Unabomber or perhaps the Weathermen) the USA hadn't experienced any significant terrorism prior to the mid-1990's within it's own borders.

 

Europe, OTOH, has had plenty. ETA in Spain, Baader-Meinhof, the IRA and it's various incarnations and splinter groups, the last round of European-based Palestinian/ Islamist terrorism in the 70's and 80's, Italian far-left and far-right nutcases... the list goes on.

 

So, I would posit, "Europe" gets on with it just like anywhere else. The French subway network has been targeted by Islamists. They'll get on with it. So will the Spanish. In the UK, where the Media seems to be convinced that "We're Next" , we'll get on with it too (I remember well the continual IRA bomb alerts as a young man living in London up until the mid-90's when they blew up Canary wharf). Not getting on with it, of course, is precisely what the terrorist wants.

 

What is interesting, in my opinion, is how terrorism will impact on domestic European politics (as opposed to the consensus, albeit rough, we see in the USA as a consequence of 9/11). People seem to "blame" their governments for supporting the invasion of Iraq (a craven attitude as far as I'm concerned). Whatever the rights or wrongs of the war, the Islamist extremists we're coming for us anyway. You can't negotiate with them. You cannot satisfy their demands. You either submit to a twisted and unrepresentative version of Islam or die. As a keen student of Arabic language and culture I genuinely don't recognise the Wahhabi-inpsired fascism of Al-Q'aeda as representative of most Arabs and/ or Muslims.

 

Will European voters elect flabby, liberal appeaser governments who will try to assauge the Death Cult of Bin Laden? Or will they instead turn to strident, right-wing authoritarian solutions? Or will mature democracies achieve a balancing act? This is a problem particularly for post-Franco Spain.

 

Nobody knows. And it's the classic Chinese curse of "May you live in interesting times."

 

Hey, stay safe. I mean that.

 

Cheers

MC

[samm]

interesting questions that you name there, monte carlo.

now that al quaida seems to take responsibility, another possible "resason" for the bombing is becoming less possible: german readers follow this link. long story short, it was speculated, that eta (hardcore basque "liberation" organisation) was coming to an end, and the attack was a last sign of life, compareable to the ending of raf.

[deganawida]

Yes, Americans seem to think that Terrorism began on the 11th September, 2001.

 

Not to (in any way) belittle those dreadful events but apart from perhaps some disgruntled anarcho-leftists (say the Unabomber or perhaps the Weathermen) the USA hadn't experienced any significant terrorism prior to the mid-1990's within it's own borders.

Actually, you're forgetting the takeover of Wounded Knee in Feb.27-May 8, 1973 by AIM (American Indian Movement). No matter how genuine their grievances (and, more than most Americans, I understand them; heck, I was a member of AIM for a while), no matter how "bloodless" it was, it was still a terrorist action, as it involved the takeover of a non-military site and the hostage-taking of civilians in order to achieve a political goal. Although it was nowhere as bloody as what Europe, the Mid East, and South America have experienced over the last 40-50 years, it was still a rather significant act of terrorism.

 

Oh, and in reference to the first point, I think that the important thing about 9/11 was that the nature of terrorism changed. I would not be surprised at all to hear of European terrorist organizations utilizing the same tactics as Al Qaeda, given that the deaths of 2-3 people no longer have the same kind of political impact as the deaths of 1200 (which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Thursday's attacks in Madrid do turn out to be caused by Eta).

[Darque]

Yes, Americans seem to think that Terrorism began on the 11th September, 2001.

 

Ummm.... no, incorrect.

 

Thanks for playing, but I have no consolation gift for you Maybe next time

[tripleRRR]

Yes, Americans seem to think that Terrorism began on the 11th September, 2001.

 

Not to (in any way) belittle those dreadful events but apart from perhaps some disgruntled anarcho-leftists (say the Unabomber or perhaps the Weathermen) the USA hadn't experienced any significant terrorism prior to the mid-1990's within it's own borders.

I dislike being stereotyped Monte Carlo, as I am sure you do too.

 

Everybody seems to think that because we were across the atlantic nobody knows about or remembers the bad old days during the cold war and the struggle for europe. I do, so do most of the people I know.

 

Just because some 12 year old on the internet knows nothing about it does not mean the rest of us don't.

 

 

TripleRRR

[Monte Carlo]

:: shrug ::

 

The defensiveness is understandable.

 

I've been travelling to the USA annually for over, what, twenty years? I keep up with what's going on there via satellite TV. Trust me, I'm more than aware of the general knowledge level of the average US citizen vis-a-vis anywhere East of New York or West of San Francisco.

 

Which isn't terribly good.

 

Cheers

MC

[tripleRRR]

Fair enough, I will admit. Until recently people over here really hadn't gotten how terrorism was any different than say, a natural disaster. Terrible to be sure, but nothing special. Understandably, recent events have changed this.

 

 

TripleRRR

[Darque]

so 20 trips to the US and a TV make you an expert? <_<

 

I've said it once, I'll say it again... only the idiots in american get airtime... for some reason they make "good news".

 

[Darque]

Fair enough, I will admit. Until recently people over here really hadn't gotten how terrorism was any different than say, a natural disaster. Terrible to be sure, but nothing special. Understandably, recent events have changed this.

 

 

TripleRRR

I'm not sure what kind of people you're used to hanging out with of course I tend to avoid the coast where the idiots migrate to.

[tripleRRR]

That comes from my observations of the various medias, CNN, Fox, etc.

 

If anything I think we forget things too quickly.

 

 

TripleRRR

[Gorth]

so 20 trips to the US and a TV make you an expert?

[Darque]

What's sad... and what most people don't realize... given the size of the US and the state boarders.... each state is in a way like it's own nation... and the further you move away from a state, the more the customs and outlook changes. Sure there are national similarities, but on the whole there is vast diversity.

[Gorth]

Yeah, one of my best friends is from India. Thing is, he doesn't really consider himself "Indian", but Sikh. India is to some degree a british invention and the nation of India encompasses *lots* of different peoples and cultures. Probably not unlike the US or other "large" sized countries. For Europeans, it's less an issue as the constantly erupting wars moves borders to either follow ethnic groups, or genocide/relocate ethnic groups to fit within borders

[Monte Carlo]

so 20 trips to the US and a TV make you an expert?

Er, yes, actually.

 

I've lived in the US (San Diego, CA and the O.C.). I've done business there. I've travelled extensively in the "Flyover" states. Most of my American friends happily acknowledge that I've travelled over more of the country than the average US citizen. I've been to the Bayou, wandered around Napa, gotten drunk in NY, SF and all points inbetween and got snowed in for a week in Colorado. I've signed the book of Mormon in Salt Lake City and lost my shirt in Vegas. I've been hunting in Maine and whale-watching in Cape Cod. Been there, done it, got the T-shirt. There was even an incident in Houston which we won't discuss right now.

 

Furthermore, I'm an unashamed Americanophile. I adore the place. Which doesn't change, one iota, the bald fact that the average American isn't wildly bothered about things going on much beyond their own state line. The parochialism of Americans is all part of their charm.

 

The irony of 9/11 is that it finally made the sleeping giant wake up and wonder why large sections of the world didn't care much for them and wanted to kill them.

 

Cheers

MC

[pregethwr]

Probably Basque seperatists, though I had thought they were all but gone.

 

 

TripleRRR

I find it hard to believe that it was ETA, if so it was a particularly nihilistic goodbye to the world.

 

I know a little about ETA and the Basques, more about some others. Their whole self-image is about being romantic oppressed little guys, much like the Irish, in their mind the spanish state is little or no better than what it was under Franco (who they never stopped fighting after his victory in 1939). This bombing would just shatter all that apart.

 

They still blame their previous worst atrocity (which killed 20?) on the police not evacuating the site quickly enough after a warning being given.

 

They are secular nationalists, with political aims, who rely largely on the support of farmers in both the french and spanish basque country and a few wealthy ex-pats.

 

This bombing would make no sense in furthering any of their goals whatsoever, would cost them huge amounts of support and even more funding.

 

I just can't see it, blaming it on ETA may have suited Azanar at the time but I find it incredulous, the only thing that would persuade me is if warnings were given and the aim was to shut down the rail system and not actually kill many, but as far as I know none were.

[Sereyna]

Hey, Monte's been to my hometown!

I do agree with most that Monte has said about us. Sometimes I think it takes an outside perspective to help us see what we are really like.

I wish I could travel that much. Monte, to get an Alienware computer and travel that much, you must be RICH!!!

[Monte Carlo]

I just can't see it, blaming it on ETA may have suited Azanar at the time but I find it incredulous...

Agreed 100%. It didn't look or feel like ETA unless it was (as you point out) a "Look at me Ma! I'm on top of the world!" moment.

 

Aznar's opportunism (or denial) of the facts was astonishing, and he deserved to suffer politically for it. Personally, as a small "c" conservative I find it unpalatable that the Spaniards gave in and elected a lacklustre socialist administration at the behest of Islamist terrorism, but hey, it's their country.

 

Unfortunately, I think Osama and the boys are sitting in a cave rubbing their hands together over this one. Now the Spanish have folded and are withdrawing their (albeit token) contingent from Iraq, who's next? What other democratic processes can be swayed by blowing up train stations?

 

Scary.

 

Cheers

MC

[Monte Carlo]

Monte, to get an Alienware computer and travel that much, you must be RICH!!!

Not rich, just childless (so far).

 

What other people are hoarding to pay for their kid's college fees I'm blowing on travel, fast computers and German sports cars.

 

It's called S.K.I.'ing (Spending the Kid's Inheritance).

 

Cheers!

MC

[Volourn]

AQ vs. Spain = Victory for AQ.

 

It's sad too. Spain's peopel don't deserve this. People seem to forget that Spain and all other Western antions were all possible targets before the Iraq war. Don't foll yourselves - the Iraq war is just some lame euse. Also note that AQ threaten "retaliation" for the Afghanistan invasion as well; plus it's their a part of their mission statement tot ake down all Western civilization's ;leadership including their allies.

My condolecsences for the Spanish people; but this sin't the way tod efend your country.