Why direct-download game distribution > publishers

[metadigital]

Wow, I just read a lot bona fide sig quotes!

[alanschu]

Indeed. So why milk it out for the $? Bad side-effect of DD. The greed devs like Valve seem to show.

And this is just the begin. How long till more and more mods become payable content? The first step on a awfully consumer-bloodriddled stair is taken...

 

What do you mean bad effect? It will keep the people that want updates for Garry's mod happy, just like it kept the people that play CS and DoD and Red Orchestra happy.

 

Finally, only good, high quality mods will evolve to the point where there is a cost, since people won't buy ****.

 

Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope. Slippery Slope.

 

It's a logical fallacy and it weakens your argument.

 

Time he could also dedicate making another new fun mod instead of continuing the already walked path... If he didn't want to mod any further... well; it already shows he already lost the magic and probably wouldn't show the same quality if he does need to continue; paid or not...

 

Uh huh. I mean, he's getting paid for it now, and now has additional accountability. He just absolutely has no interest in it at all now, so quality will obviously go out the window.

 

But this makes sense. You'd rather he go and spend just as much time, energy, and money making something else for you for free. Hopefully it's of the same high quality. I'm sure little things like him having a life and whatnot shouldn't interfere.

 

READ... It helps alot!

 

And just to mention; I don't play HL2 or Gary's Mod. Bad experiences with Steam/HL and DD made up for that...

 

There's no need to put in a DD comment since you don't need to use DD to use either. You tried to take another shot at DD, but yet again you're firing blanks.

 

Do you know if it interests him? I don't know. I probably never find out anyway either. All I know is that he wanted to give up and then the $ made him continue. Thus he wanted to end it... and was done with it. Lost motivation. What possibly could he add if he wanted to stop with it? All points aim at a big $-grabbing opportunity he seized with both hands.

 

No it doesn't. You just want it to. It just as easily points to the fact that maintaining it was becoming an expensive commitment. But hey, you have no problem if people spends hours of their time giving you something for free.

 

You're assuming that he's stopping because he figured he was bored with the project.

 

All points aim at a big $-grabbing opportunity he seized with both hands.

But only time will tell if the $10 gives additional bonusses or is just more of the same; only with 1 pixel more there and here...

 

I guarantee he will. Now that people are actually paying for his product, they now suddenly have a right to ask for more. Now that little things like paying the bills and putting food on the table are no longer a burden.

[metadigital]

Gary might even be inspired to new heights of creativity, with his new-found Return-On-his-Investment helping to keep him fed.

 

Because communism works and mods should be for free. "

[alanschu]

Ironically, I feel this only strengthens DD as a distribution method.

 

If they can help a single person become successful, why couldn't it help small developers, or even big developers?

[Hassat Hunter]

What do you mean bad effect?  It will keep the people that want updates for Garry's mod happy, just like it kept the people that play CS and DoD and Red Orchestra happy.

But the mod is done. DONE. He wanted to end it; thus it is done. "want updates". All fun for them; but since when is paying for PATCHES become an accepted fact. Was it before or after paid Mods or paid "2 Textures" plugins?

 

Finally, only good, high quality mods will evolve to the point where there is a cost, since people won't buy ****.

Black&White proofs you wrong! DAMN IT; I even bought the PoS myself for the full $50,- while I find it utter crap...

 

It's a logical fallacy and it weakens your argument.

Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions and Enter the Matrix were Supergood, don't you agree? After all it got many people to buy the game/ticket; and what sells good must be good. Windows XP is also a prime example of Excelence Unsurpassed AT ALL... the selling figures being so much higher than that of other OS must prove it cannot be any better in a gazillion years

 

Uh huh.  I mean, he's getting paid for it now, and now has additional accountability.  He just absolutely has no interest in it at all now, so quality will obviously go out the window.

Cash + no more interest = No sign of quality. Whatever you may say about it motivating. Does Sequel 300424 for your favorite EA series is so much better than the previous; despite the fact they get loads of $ for each thus could be motivated for extreme quality-improvement?

 

But this makes sense.  You'd rather he go and spend just as much time, energy, and money making something else for you for free.  Hopefully it's of the same high quality.  I'm sure little things like him having a life and whatnot shouldn't interfere.

 

Then make it your job. Go to, say, Obsidian Entertainment and get bloody HIRED. You know it is going to be for free if you make mods... atleast... you KNEW.

 

There's no need to put in a DD comment since you don't need to use DD to use either.  You tried to take another shot at DD, but yet again you're firing blanks.

 

And the reason I don't buy a carbon copy is because of the bad experience with Half-Life and STEAM. GASP. A DD-delivery system... No WAY it is involved anyhow in the HL2 installation process. That is why everybody loved the install and nobody ever complained about it. Especially not the first few weeks "

 

No it doesn't.  You just want it to.  It just as easily points to the fact that maintaining it was becoming an expensive commitment.  But hey, you have no problem if people spends hours of their time giving you something for free.

 

As I said a zillion times before such is fate if you mod. If you want to see $ go make it your work at a real company.

 

I guarantee he will.  Now that people are actually paying for his product, they now suddenly have a right to ask for more.  Now that little things like paying the bills and putting food on the table are no longer a burden.

. As obvious there is no way you can do in your living than modding. That is why there are also so many NWN mods. All people who cannot get the food on the table because they cannot work since modding is a 24/7 exploitation exercise...

And "asking stuff" certainly always forced devs like, say, Obsidian Entertainment from releasing the actual end of Kotor2 if asked for it...

 

Because communism works and mods should be for free. "

Yup. Mods should be free. Read the EULA of any game with modding tools (to keep it easy just read NWN's one). This changed (for the worse!) when DD came around though; but I am not sure if we need to blame DD or just Valve.

 

If they can help a single person become successful, why couldn't it help small developers, or even big developers?

 

Point only is that Gary was already populair before selling stuff. That is a whole lot of difference than immediately asking cash before anybody knows the exact thing you sell (maybe because... it was FREE!)

Edited May 28, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[metadigital]

Mr Hunter, you might want to take a breath so that your ranting becomes less comical.

 

Here's how it works:

1. Person decides to make a mod of a game.
   
2. Mod is distributed free.
   
3. If people like the mod, then they contribute to the modder in some way (gasp! cash)
   
4. After a certain critical point, the modder is able to charge for the (current or future) mod, like an expansion pack.
   

If this all sounds familiar that's because the methodology has been used before: it is the basic underpinning of shareware, and was the marketing vector for the original Doom.

 

 

Now, you are guilty of many logical fallacies in your argument, but one of the major ones is

POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC

(after this, therefore because of this):

meaning that just because (in this instance, Gary) can charge for the mod, therfore DD is eeeeeevil because it caused him to charge for the mod.

 

Secondly, as has been pointed out numerous times, Gary was not going to extend his mod past version 9.04. Which is still available for free. If you want to support him and his efforts, then you can do so VOLUNTARILY by purchasing his official, later version. (That's called a free market.)

 

I don't know why you have decided that your warped interpretation of the marketplace is the only version permissible. Perhaps if you were a modder, you might have a different attitude.

[alanschu]

But the mod is done. DONE. He wanted to end it; thus it is done. "want updates". All fun for them; but since when is paying for PATCHES become an accepted fact. Was it before or after paid Mods or paid "2 Textures" plugins?

 

Paying for patches? What? And clearly the mod isn't done. If he didn't want to work on it, he wouldn't. It's not like $5 a sale is going to make him go from "I absolutely do not want to work on it" to "Sure, I have no problems working on it."

 

Black&White proofs you wrong! DAMN IT; I even bought the PoS myself for the full $50,- while I find it utter crap...

 

I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the Black & White Mod. Which game was it for?

 

Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions and Enter the Matrix were Supergood, don't you agree? After all it got many people to buy the game/ticket; and what sells good must be good. Windows XP is also a prime example of Excelence Unsurpassed AT ALL... the selling figures being so much higher than that of other OS must prove it cannot be any better in a gazillion years

 

Uh, what?

 

Apparenlty you don't know what the Slippery Slope is (I did provide 5 or so links for you to view). You know, the "first step" comment. That's the slipperly slope. And that's the logical fallacy.

 

(Note: The Fallacy you did here was Straw Man. Thanks for coming)

 

Cash + no more interest = No sign of quality.

 

This assumes of course Garry is not interested in doing it. It also overlooks the fact that, if he wants to continue to improve his mod, even for free, it's starting to get expensive. Especially time wise. Sucks for real life to get in the way of things.

 

Then make it your job. Go to, say, Obsidian Entertainment and get bloody HIRED. You know it is going to be for free if you make mods... atleast... you KNEW.

 

He essentially was hired by Valve. After he commented that he wasn't going to work on it anymore, Valve provided him with an opportunity and have essentially contracted him to continue working on it. Kudos to him, he got hired. Unless you're claiming that Garry started the mod with the sole purpose of eventually making money on it. In which case, kudos to him for achieving his goal.

 

As I said a zillion times before such is fate if you mod. If you want to see $ go make it your work at a real company.

 

And he was moving on. Valve essentially offered him a job to keep going on when they offered him a contract.

 

And the reason I don't buy a carbon copy is because of the bad experience with Half-Life and STEAM. GASP. A DD-delivery system... No WAY it is involved anyhow in the HL2 installation process. That is why everybody loved the install and nobody ever complained about it. Especially not the first few weeks 

 

The complaints were because Valve's servers were overworked, and there was issues authenticating the CD copies of the game. If you want to bitch, bitch about copy protection.

 

. As obvious there is no way you can do in your living than modding. That is why there are also so many NWN mods. All people who cannot get the food on the table because they cannot work since modding is a 24/7 exploitation exercise...

And "asking stuff" certainly always forced devs like, say, Obsidian Entertainment from releasing the actual end of Kotor2 if asked for it... 

 

About that slipperly slope...

 

If Garry wishes this venture to actually make him money, it's in his best interests to release updates. Since you claim he's only doing it for the money as well.

 

Yup. Mods should be free. Read the EULA of any game with modding tools (to keep it easy just read NWN's one). This changed (for the worse!) when DD came around though; but I am not sure if we need to blame DD or just Valve.

 

Why?

 

I did read the EULA of Half-Life 2. I even quoted it for you (hell, I even posted it on this forum).

 

Since you missed it: "This License Agreement may be amended, altered or modified only by an instrument in writing, specifying such amendment, alteration or modification, executed by both you and Licensor."

 

Since I don't have NWN installed on my computer (just did a reinstall) and I think the discs are in my roommate's room (who is sleeping), post it so I can read it. But hey, they're content with just releasing the "Premium Modules" which is completely different.

 

Besides, since you mentioned this wasn't an issue until DD came along, it was already exercised by the Silicon Valley (a company) project called World Builder.

 

 

Point only is that Gary was already populair before selling stuff. That is a whole lot of difference than immediately asking cash before anybody knows the exact thing you sell (maybe because... it was FREE!)

 

Like metadigital said....welcome to the old school method of software distribution, Shareware. And who cares if Garry is popular? He's made a product that he (and Valve, the company that has contracted him out [i.e. hired him] to continue work on his mod) feels he can market. It's also a product that had him asking for donations to keep it running.

 

Considering it's entirely possible for you the user, to continue using the free version of his software to no skin off of your back, you have no foundation for your argument.

 

 

I'd keep going, but I noticed that meta has responded, and I really don't have anything else to say.

[Hassat Hunter]

@ Metadigital;

And did this shareware version of Doom at any way used a Non-ID engine to do his work with. How many shareware programs are released that were made by copyrighed programs like NWN, Half-Life or Unreal Editor?

You fail...; Shareware is NOT the same as selling a mod.

 

And no, I don't say cause Garry asks cash DD is evil. DD is evil because it can make mods like Garry's and The Ship and Counter-Strike and DoD payable content where is used to be free; and in the past remained free cause they couldn't ask cash like this. Altough it probably is more a problem of Valve's greed than DD...

 

@ Alanschu;

Why not? Wouldn't you do that if it gave you a few thousand dollars. "My car is clean enough for me; I pack up and go do something else." "Sir; If you would wash your car the second time to clean the few tiny spots you missed you get $5000,-". Weeh, would you deny? I know I wouldn't...

And yes, basically what he mades for it are patches to fix the issues with the mod.

 

I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the Black & White Mod. Which game was it for?

Nice try getting around the point people DO buy crappy games. But by this you haven't given me proof people do always buy stuff they like.

 

On the Gary got hired by Valve. Did he? If he is only getting paid (yes; paid even more besides all the $ of his mod copies. Yeah, more $-grabbing!) to continue on his mod I hardly call it a job. The guys who made that BF mod and got hired got hired to work on BF2, not continue with their mod. The oh so popular to talk about now DLA was hired to work on "mods" that made $ to BioWare, not to continue on their own mods where Bio got no profit from. Or does a large part of the $10,- goes to Valve? In which case it only furthers my proof the inventors of the "dev helping DD to prevent greedy producers" are only more greedy than those prod. themselves, and deserve getting boycotted...

[Nartwak]

What's wrong with money?

[kirottu]

@ Metadigital;

And did this shareware version of Doom at any way used a Non-ID engine to do his work with. How many shareware programs are released that were made by copyrighed programs like NWN, Half-Life or Unreal Editor?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I

[themadhatter114]

On the Gary got hired by Valve. Did he? If he is only getting paid (yes; paid even more besides all the $ of his mod copies. Yeah, more $-grabbing!) to continue on his mod I hardly call it a job. The guys who made that BF mod and got hired got hired to work on BF2, not continue with their mod. The oh so popular to talk about now DLA was hired to work on "mods" that made $ to BioWare, not to continue on their own mods where Bio got no profit from. Or does a large part of the $10,- goes to Valve? In which case it only furthers my proof the inventors of the "dev helping DD to prevent greedy producers" are only more greedy than those prod. themselves, and deserve getting boycotted...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that Valve is getting 50% of the revenue from Garry's Mod, in exchange for Garry's full access to the Source Engine.

[alanschu]

@ Alanschu;

Why not? Wouldn't you do that if it gave you a few thousand dollars. "My car is clean enough for me; I pack up and go do something else." "Sir; If you would wash your car the second time to clean the few tiny spots you missed you get $5000,-". Weeh, would you deny? I know I wouldn't...

And yes, basically what he mades for it are patches to fix the issues with the mod.

 

Of course I'd do that, because I'm getting paid a ridiculously stupid amount of money for something so simple. A bit over the top when concerning Garry working on his mod (which is not a simple thing to do) for a mere $5 a copy.

 

I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the Black & White Mod. Which game was it for?

Nice try getting around the point people DO buy crappy games. But by this you haven't given me proof people do always buy stuff they like.

 

Do people buy crappy mods? Since this is a mod discussion. I've yet to see a mod that was crappy go retail. Let alone sell well.

 

 

On the Gary got hired by Valve. Did he? If he is only getting paid (yes; paid even more besides all the $ of his mod copies. Yeah, more $-grabbing!) to continue on his mod I hardly call it a job. The guys who made that BF mod and got hired got hired to work on BF2, not continue with their mod. The oh so popular to talk about now DLA was hired to work on "mods" that made $ to BioWare, not to continue on their own mods where Bio got no profit from. Or does a large part of the $10,- goes to Valve? In which case it only furthers my proof the inventors of the "dev helping DD to prevent greedy producers" are only more greedy than those prod. themselves, and deserve getting boycotted...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess independent contractors are all unemployed. Valve approached him with a business opportunity. Garry is an entrepreneur.

 

And did this shareware version of Doom at any way used a Non-ID engine to do his work with. How many shareware programs are released that were made by copyrighed programs like NWN, Half-Life or Unreal Editor?

You fail...; Shareware is NOT the same as selling a mod.

 

How many mods have gone retail without the expressed consent of the people that own the copy of the game. This seems to be the big thing you like to ignore, since you allege that people are breaking an EULA, when it's the Licensor that gives them permission.

 

And no, I don't say cause Garry asks cash DD is evil. DD is evil because it can make mods like Garry's and The Ship and Counter-Strike and DoD payable content where is used to be free; and in the past remained free cause they couldn't ask cash like this. Altough it probably is more a problem of Valve's greed than DD...

 

Ok, since you aren't paying attention...

 

YOU CAN STILL PLAY COUNTERSTRIKE FOR FREE, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A COPY OF HALF-LIFE, JUST LIKE YOU ALWAYS COULD.

 

The same goes for Day of Defeat, and Garry's Mod!

 

In fact, with respect to Counterstrike and Day of Defeat, you still got all the updates and bonuses to the games after they went retail.

 

I NEVER bought Counterstrike. EVER. But I still played it until version 1.6. Counterstrike: Source, which I still play, was included with every package deal except for the cheap Half-Life 2 ONLY version. Which is great, because people that are ONLY concerned in Half-Life 2, could save some money.

 

I NEVER bought Day of Defeat. But I can still play it.

 

 

All the going retail did for a game like Counterstrike did, was let people that wanted to play Counterstrike get the game without having to buy Half-Life.

 

Prior to it going retail, if you wanted to play Counterstrike, you had to buy a $60 game. After the retail, if you wanted to play Counterstrike, you had to buy a $20 game.

 

 

Or does a large part of the $10,- goes to Valve? In which case it only furthers my proof the inventors of the "dev helping DD to prevent greedy producers" are only more greedy than those prod. themselves, and deserve getting boycotted...

 

As indiciated by madhatter, Valve made an offer to split the revenues 50/50. Which makes sense, because Valve owns the license to the engine. They, as stated earlier, provided a business opportunity to Garry. But yeah, this is all greed...

 

Greed would have been to continue to milk to success of Counterstrike which was selling copies of Half-Life, with no fiduciary reward for Jess Cliffe or Minh Lee. Not provide business opportunities to make money for these guys to make some money for their hard work.

 

Cliffe eventually got hired by Valve as well. As did 3 other people that worked on Day of Defeat.

Edited May 28, 2006 by alanschu

[Bokishi]

I don't understand the hoopla about paying $10 for like the best hl2 mod ever, I even donated $15 to garry.

[alanschu]

Because it's violating the EULA!!!!

 

[Bokishi]

Anyone who spends time reading that during an installation seriously needs a life.

[alanschu]

I read one once, just to see what the heck was in it.

 

I did take a quick looksee over the Half-Life 2 one and quickly found that changes can be made to the license agreement under written consent with the Licensor (in this case Valve).

[Hassat Hunter]

I've yet to see a mod that was crappy go retail

 

And this is one of the first times A mod goes retail (without even allowing to play it without the original game). Which is the whole freakin' issue...

 

I know plenty of good mods for older games; none of them who needed $ to play; and they all never will...

[alanschu]

I've yet to see a mod that was crappy go retail

 

And this is one of the first times A mod goes retail (without even allowing to play it without the original game). Which is the whole freakin' issue...

 

I know plenty of good mods for older games; none of them who needed $ to play; and they all never will...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What? You make no point here. Expansion packs require the original game too. Are they somehow illegal and violating an EULA?

 

Wow, mods have existed that didn't need money to play. Thanks captain obvious. And there will be plenty of good mods for new games and unreleased games that don't need money to play.

 

Just like I never needed money to play Counterstrike. Just like I never needed money to play Day of Defeat. And just like I have never needed money to play with Garry's mod.

 

I don't need money to play the Half-Life mod The Ship either.

 

 

What mod do I need to pay for in order to play, outside of the original cost of the game?

Edited May 29, 2006 by alanschu

[mkreku]

I've yet to see a mod that was crappy go retail.  Let alone sell well.

You should buy the Horse Armour mod from Bethesda then..

 

Although that is an official mod, so it may not count.

[alanschu]

That's the one that adds content to Oblivion right?

 

Was it freely available prior to release?

 

 

In any case, I'm not sure it would count, as it was made by the developers of the game. Though I'm sure there's an EULA violation in there somewhere.

 

I just don't buy into the slippery slope that suddenly we'll have to pay for every mod. As long as game companies continue to make their games moddable, there will be people that create content that is freely available. A fanmade mod would not be exercising much business sense if they decided to straight up create a custom mod that has no history and just toss a pricetag on it. Few people would buy it.

 

Games like Counterstrike, Day of Defeat, as well as Garry's mod have become markettable because they became extremely popular. No one came out with a Half-Life: The Opera retail release. It wasn't popular enough to be realistically marketable. Valve knows first hand how important the mod community can be to a game. I'll be very surprised if they start forcing mod makers to sell their mods. And if they do, the solution is simple...don't buy them. The same goes for any allegedly crap retail mod.

 

As for the good mods, the second it "goes retail" is exactly the same as when it is no longer supported for a fan that doesn't want to pay. Grasping at things like "Well, he could be doing something else" is tenuous at best. He could be doing something else. If he really wanted to do something else though...he would.

 

The only fan made mods I have seen go retail are high quality, exceptionally popular fan made mods.

[metadigital]

Mr Hunter has been Alan0WNED.

[Volourn]

Slavery is wrong, and is outlawed in all civilized countries.

[alanschu]

Awww. I was hoping for a rebuttal.

[Gorth]

From memory (so I might be wrong, I'm not going to argue it):

 

Wasn't both Wildfire for JA2 and Battlefield Vietnam mods that made it to retail and received lukewarm receptions from the buyers ?

[alanschu]

Battlefield: Vietnam wasn't. At least not that I know of.

 

 

I think Wildfire was. I'm not sure what happened to those that played it prior though. It's a bizarre situation because when Wildfire was released, the company that made JA2 was already out of business for a few years.