how short is too short?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Being in the BG2 mod community, I heard many complaints about Irenicus Dungeon being boring and dull. I myself never had an issue with it.

 

Peragus is another beginning I hear about being boring, worthless. I agree its boring and tend to go through it quickly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I generally dreaded having to go through it again. Pergaus I never minded so much. Being alone , it had a sort of creepy vibe. It was a good chance to get to know the character as well.

 

In both cases though you are faced with a very limited set of options which really dont change much from game to game. I think thats basically true of most RPGs. I certainly wouldnt want to go through candlekeep over and over. However those areas are still importantant in establishing the story (at least the first time).

[Llyranor]

Because cliff racers attack in packs.

[Darque]

Why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

shouldn't that be a how rather than a why? as the why should be obvious

[Camael]

What management failures / project breakdowns are you referring to? It's hardly any surprise for things to be "cut" along the way. Or do you mean that they recently cut from 30+ hours to ~20 hours?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

..it just has the appearance of a problem that snuck up on them and then- whammo, as opposed to rigorously managed project where small incremental adjustments are made over time to avoid things like significant content gutting at the end of a project, etc. etc.

[Tigranes]

Do you really mean you think cutting 33% of a game 6 months before release after 2.5 year of creating does NOT worry you?

 

It does, and that's why I was asking. However, I rather suspect both figures were rough estimates, and they wouldn't actually cut 33%.

 

Which is why Obsidian hired an internal team. If that team is not capable of keeping more than 20 hours bugfree

 

Who said they were not capable of this?? Stop repeating yourself.

 

Anyway, then you spent the rest of the post ranting "GRAPHIX HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LEVEL DESIGN" - uh, you did read MY post, right?

 

Camael: Possibly. This is, after all, OE's first full-fledged project (by that I mean Engine -> Design -> Internal QA), and I always thought the company's rapid growth in numbers may be a little premature if not handled right. We won't know till we see the game though, if they really cut so much from the OC we will be able to tell.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Tigranes

[Llyranor]

Maybe it's just me, but I would have preferred it if Obs had decided to cut one of the planets in KOTOR2 and focused their resources on the ending instead.

[Tigranes]

Well, cutting Korriban wouldn't have helped, it would have taken about a day to make.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

..it just has the appearance of a problem that snuck up on them and then- whammo, as opposed to rigorously managed project where small incremental adjustments are made over time to avoid things like significant content gutting at the end of a project, etc. etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Or Feargus does actually believe what he is saying and he wants a compact adventure that anyone can complete.

 

What strikes me as strange, is this. If the game is created with a construction set unless your talking about outside factors like FMV and VO. It's not supposed to be a big deal to make a module, or string modules together to make a campaign.Thats part of what the package is intended for after all.

[Dark_Raven]

Being in the BG2 mod community, I heard many complaints about Irenicus Dungeon being boring and dull. I myself never had an issue with it.

 

Peragus is another beginning I hear about being boring, worthless. I agree its boring and tend to go through it quickly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I generally dreaded having to go through it again. Pergaus I never minded so much. Being alone , it had a sort of creepy vibe. It was a good chance to get to know the character as well.

 

In both cases though you are faced with a very limited set of options which really dont change much from game to game. I think thats basically true of most RPGs. I certainly wouldnt want to go through candlekeep over and over. However those areas are still importantant in establishing the story (at least the first time).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is important to establish the story, yes, but they could liven it up a bit.

[alanschu]

Furthermore, Lawson's post gives the indication that these rewrites didn't happen right away.  You also introduce the possibilty of new bugs, new problems, and different hurdles.  Even if they can still use pre-rewrite assets, it's hard to write and test scripts if the map you designed has now exploded due to the changes in the toolset.

 

They invented something for that. It is called QA...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Excellent! I was very curious how you were going to respond to this.

 

This is NOT an issue that QA would find, because it would never get to QA. Designers do not just add stuff to the game and wait for QA to test it. This issue would be found the instant a designer tried loading their map in the toolset. If that part of the game was still very incomplete, QA would not testing it, as it's not in a state to be tested yet.

[Hassat Hunter]

That's why they aren't hired for the first 2.5 years, at least for that project. Knock knock, Brain.

 

Oh, how clever... There ARE QA people working on a game during the earlier stages. No beta-testing duders, but certianly QA...

 

HH, Meet Reading Comprehension.

 

Says mister "use the Source engine to code NWN2

 

I said a significant degree must be finished, at least the basics. I strongly suggest that they did NOT have 2 full years to do their OC based on this fact. Perhaps you disagree.

 

Why should be. A graphics engine is a graphics engine. I am sure you can map and code quite well without that in perfect shape...

 

1/ Using a toolset wisely has nothing to do with making longer games. Your logic is nonexistent. Of course OE knows how to use toolsets wisely. Your point? It's not THAT which has impeded them from making a long game.

 

2/ Therefore the entire paragraph becomes irrelevant.

 

Sure they know how to use one well. THEN WHY the 20 hours, eh? It ain't cuss they couldn't use the toolset for such a long time as everybody here loves to claim but is based on the fact that the graphics engine ain't finished. Once again: Who needs the

[alanschu]

No, not even near finished actually... the work on NWN2 I assume took place 3 years ago, and since has been worked on it... likely before the toolkit and engine had been rewritten...

 

Then this would definitely explain the cut in content.

[Tigranes]

I believe most of the complaints regarding the Irenicus Dungeon was that it felt so separate from the rest of the game, could not be rushed (or you'd end up dead, fast), yet for people who have played the game multiple times it was both easy and boring. (Mephits??) Which is why most mods either make the combat more difficult, or simply skip it. I think that happens with ALL prologue sequences - Oblivion's sewers, KOTOR's Peragus, and so forth.

 

Also, alanschu is right.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It is important to establish the story, yes, but they could liven it up a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How exactly ?

 

I cant think of an RPG where the early game has been as involved as the mid game. Simply because of the way RPGs are designed.

 

It's not like you can transplant those elements to the early game either. Since growth is a key part of an RPG you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.

 

Another example would be Oblivions Sewers. The only "solution" as I see it , is to not make that particular area longer than it needs to be. But then you run the risk of weakening your story by not giving it a solid foundation.

[alanschu]

I think that's more of a "story" issue SP. Exposition leads to the "rising action" to the climax, and falls down to the denoument

 

 

Expositions can be with a bang, but I rarely find they are better than the rest of the story. If it is, that is VERY bad.

Edited April 25, 2006 by alanschu

[Tigranes]

Oh, how clever... There ARE QA people working on a game during the earlier stages. No beta-testing duders, but certianly QA...

 

All 25 of them, sure, on that project, on level design, sure.

 

Says mister "use the Source engine to code NWN2 rolleyes.gif

 

Because that was NOT a sarcastic remark designed to point out your own logical fallacies? Yes, I'm sure I was devastatingly honest in claiming such was said.

 

Why should be. A graphics engine is a graphics engine. I am sure you can map and code quite well without that in perfect shape...

 

I am not talking about the graphics engine, you dinosaur.

 

 

Sure they know how to use one well. THEN WHY the 20 hours, eh?

 

Because the story was exhausted and it would be too much of a stretch? Because 20 hours may mean nonlinearity and 20 hours to just follow one branch? Because they wanted a higher level of quality than other games? Because they had to cut and redo large parts of the game due to errors or misdirection in design? Who knows. But we both know it's not due to not using toolset wisely. You brought up a non-point, so I fail to see why you're still dangling to it.

 

Eh, no... there has already been mentioning of the engine changing in steps, thus these "drafts" would also change with it and been kept up-to-date at all times...

 

No, in this case you were saying "why not use the NWN Aurora Engine". You'd have a lot of porting over to do, whether at once, or in incremental steps as you suggest. Either way it's a lot of work, so would take some time anyway.

 

No, not even near finished actually... the work on NWN2 I assume took place 3 years ago, and since has been worked on it... likely before the toolkit and engine had been rewritten...

 

So you actually agree with me then???!??!?! LOLOLOLOLOLIPOP [/volo]

 

Jesus christ, I NEVER SAID ENGINE HAD TO BE FINISHED. I WAS NEVER EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE GRAPHICS. Stop replying to your invisible friend.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Tigranes

[Hassat Hunter]

5-6 years isn't long enough for you?  Why do you think people license engines?

 

To cut on prodoction time. That doesn't mean that (bar very few exceptions) EVERY dev alters the engine to their wishes. Does this always have to happen before the work on the actual game can begin... doubt it... Hell, I have a game here (Painkiller) that got a ENGINE UPDATE for all existing levels in a freaking patch! Explain that if the engine segments where needed completely in order to build up the maps and terrains...

 

It doesn't....because they did more than alter the graphics engine....they redesigned the toolset.  Trust me, building levels with one toolset, only to scrap that toolset and bring in another one is not a good idea.  And it's not going to be that easy of a transition to just load stuff designed with one toolset into another.  Unless they built their toolset in that way (which would take even more time).

 

Oh yeah, they "suddenly" had a different toolset. Ofcourse if you sit at your PC for a few hours you do not advance from A to Z by B, C, D, E etc... No, after A Z is a sudden entry...

 

You can do it if you anticipate it from the beginning and incorporate it directly into your design patterns.  Furthermore, UE3 has been in development for a long time.  Finally, UE3 hasn't been released yet, but UE4 has already been in development for two years, so it's not like the designers at Epic are shooting from the hip when it comes to expectations of how levels are created.  They didn't decide to suddenly rewrite the graphics engine for UT2K7....the concept of the UE3 engine existed long before UT2K7 would have left preproduction.

 

No, but it is altered and edited even still. Lately the added mouth-movement and what else is yet to come. A final version (or even near-final version) of the engine is not needed to make those wire-framed levels... nor do the levels have to be completely build from scratch again after an engine update...

[Hassat Hunter]

Who said they were not capable of this?? Stop repeating yourself.

 

Alanschu...

 

I only reply to the points made by others... never bring up my own. If that forces me to repeat myself the statements/questions because apparently it didn't come across then so be it...

[Llyranor]

HI DOES THIS THREAD STILL HAVE A POINT?

[Tigranes]

Wrong. alanschu said:

 

If there's less game to run through QA, there's a greater chance that a larger percentage of the bugs will be caught.

 

This was what you replied to. No, this does not mean that QA is "incapable" of testing a 40 hour game. Have you EVER seen a 40 hour game with no bugs? It's like getting a QA to do 40 hours and get 80% bugfree, or 20 hours and 95% bugfree. Both are valid choices. Your talks about "capable" reduces it to "succeed" and "fail" black and whites for QA. Nobody said the QA would "fail" at 40-hour, it would just do better at 20-hour. Logical, no?

 

You don't need to say any more stuff about "Engine does not have to be finished" or "Graphics aren't necessary". Nobody said they were. We are in agreement on that.

[Tigranes]

HI DOES THIS THREAD STILL HAVE A POINT?

 

Nope, but I like Indian with my ice cold water.

[Darque]

HI DOES THIS THREAD STILL HAVE A POINT?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's a rhetorical question, yes? :ph34r:

[Tigranes]

so fergie is probably gonna sit backs and let this thing play itself out a little longer... hopes you people gets distracted by some other concern or non-issue...

 

you know what? Gromnir ain't gonna let that happen. am gonna put the topic in our signature if we have to, but is no way in hell that we is simply gonna let the epidemic ADD we gots 'round here get fergie and obsidian and atari off the hook...

 

Oh Shiiiiiiii-

 

:ph34r:

Edited April 25, 2006 by Tigranes

[Nick_i_am]

HI DOES THIS THREAD STILL HAVE A POINT?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

HI TO YOU TOO, I AM INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINIONS AND WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR NEWSLETTER

[Dark_Raven]

It is important to establish the story, yes, but they could liven it up a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How exactly ?

 

I cant think of an RPG where the early game has been as involved as the mid game. Simply because of the way RPGs are designed.

 

It's not like you can transplant those elements to the early game either. Since growth is a key part of an RPG you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.

 

Another example would be Oblivions Sewers. The only "solution" as I see it , is to not make that particular area longer than it needs to be. But then you run the risk of weakening your story by not giving it a solid foundation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I liked how they did Candlekeep at the beginning of BG. You did a few mundane quests, learned a few things about yourself and some of the characters, but the equipment that you need on your adventure, than leave. I doesn't need to be complex or give too much of the story away, just keep it simple and entertaining.