BREAKING NEWS: NEW NWN2 PREVIEW

[metadigital]

forget the reality, am talking 'bout perception... and the weight o' player expectations.  peoples played nwn and the expansions at levels 1-30+, and they had a bunch of PrC, and they saw lots of loot and critters.  nwn2 is gonna have fewer PrCs... and that right there is a big difference.  you don't think so?  simply looks at the nwn boards both before and after release.  demand for each person's personal favorite PrC is probaly one of the most common recurring threads you will have seen. 

 

am also not talking 'bout personal wants... 'cause Gromnir will be satisfied if gameplay is solid and if they gets domains better than the nwn weirdness.  ufortunately we ain't the average crpg or d&d or FR fan.  from what we can tell, the average nwn player wants to play as a drow death knight, dual wielding vorpal halberds... and he wants an opportunity kill elminster and make wild sweaty monkey love with lolth. 

 

now, Gromnir am recognizing that no developer is gonna make such a game, and perhaps we is being a smidge hyperbolic, but we thinks that if you don't understand  your audience you is gonna be more than a little disappointed at their reaction.  afterwards the obsidian developers can  pull a ps:t fanboi kinda thing and says that they were casting pearls before swine, but such excuses has rarely been particularly moving. 

 

the fans of nwn is NOT the handful of modders you see on the nwn boards... and they is NOT the hardcore crpg fans you see 'round here or at codex or at bioware.  nwn sold 2 million copies and the vast majority o' players never played a mod or played online with a pnp style party... evar.  there is lots of folks out there who play these games simply to level up and gain loot... and many of the folks who buy nwn2 is gonna be doing so in the hopes that the characters they create in nwn2 will have more fantastic powers and more powerful loot than they did in nwn... and they will wanna play a drow who gets an opportunity to kill elminster and score with lolth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Grom, I don't think that is reasonable or practical to pander to the

[Judge Hades]

That is one of the things I like about Josh. He post stuff up and we can give him honest feedback and he takes it seriously and acts on it in one fashion or another.

[metadigital]

"Don't forget that NwN 2 is equal parts a empowerment for modders, too."

 

no it isn't... and it would help if the developers figured that out sooner rather than later.  according to some comments made by biowarians, less than 10% of nwn purchasers ever played a mod... and far fewer ever made a mod.

 

is not equal... not by a long shot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I would argue that the key NwN product differentiation is its Toolset. I can't argue the figures with you (I have no idea), but, either:

• NwN sold a lot more to the non-mod community than it was marketed to, or
   
  
• the toolset had no economical rationale
  

If the former, that's good for Bioware / Atari. If the latter, then I don't know why so many resources have been invested in the toolsets ...

"I think it is beyond obvious that the beginning is where you start"

 

what is even more obvious is that people always want more.  tekk us that it makes more sense to start with the basics completely ignores a large % of those 2 million nwn fans who unreasonably or not, wants... more.

 

we gots perspective... and so too should josh.  we recall when iwd2 were being developed and josh offered up to the board for feedback some kit ideas.  they were very solid and balanced... and they were absolutely hated. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe. But when don't surveys provide negative feedback?

 

Once the game is out, if it's decent, people will play. Build it, and they will come!

 

For all the belly-aching about Oblivion, for example, when the dust settles it will be regarded as a very good game despite numerous flaws that we all can name.

 

Unless NwN 2 has multiple critical failures (plot, characters, pacing, graphics, combat, etc etc) it will swim.

 

... Then we can look forward to the new Super-Sci-Fi-Post-Apocalyptic-Survival-RPG IP that Obsidian will make next (w00t) ...

[Gromnir]

"Grom, I don't think that is reasonable or practical to pander to the

Edited April 13, 2006 by Gromnir

[Judge Hades]

Didn't they remove Monkey Grip feat in 3.5.

[Gromnir]

Didn't they remove Monkey Grip feat in 3.5. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

you would know better than Gromnir. we bought Defenders of the Faith... then vowed never to buy another d&d product again. we downloaded the d&d 3.5 core rules, but that doesn't cover all the secondary and tertiary source materials.

 

after what appeared to be a good start with 3e, we is back to where we were with original d&d, and ad&d... we is forced to play mostly with house rules variations 'cause of the suckage that is predictable (& necessary) corporate greed. not gonna make money of off a single coherent rule set... gotta keep offering new info and new materials, whether it makes game better or not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Darque]

I can see Gromnir's point, steps forward from NWN are always better than steps back.

[Cantousent]

Creating the sort of overpowered characters Gromnir suggested isn't a step forward.

 

NWN2 will sell loads and loads no matter what. They could probably sell the box with nothing but a copy of Pee Wee big time adventure inside. Let's face it, this is about as close to a guaranteed sale as anything, even KotOR. On the other hand, if they drop the ball, it will hurt them in the long run.

[Volourn]

"nwn2 is gonna have fewer PrCs"

 

This is 100% false.

[Gromnir]

"Creating the sort of overpowered characters Gromnir suggested isn't a step forward."

 

not for you or Gromnir and not for josh... but don't kid yourself 'bout what many folks do want. simply looks at the pnp material that wotc has sold since 3e were first released. the munchkin urge is strong, and wotc has fed it... and now the stuff is official... whatever that means.

 

regardless, people got PrCs in their previous nwn products, and they got 30 levels and they gots ph47 1007 and all kinds o' other stuff. there is gonna be people who is gonna be really disappointed if nwn2 regresss so that their characters is seemingly gimped compared to their nwn characters.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

"nwn2 is gonna have fewer PrCs"

 

This is 100% false.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

how many PrCs gots the nwn games?

 

how many will the first nwn2 game has?

 

you cannot simply compare nwn2 to nwn... 'cause the property advanced, at least in the eyes of fans. it may be unfair to obsidian, but we ain't trying to be fair... am talking 'bout fan expectations.

 

we weren't kidding 'bout the PrC threads on the nwn boards neither... is as bad as the lightsabre color threads onthe kotor boards.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"you cannot simply compare nwn2 to nwn..."

 

NWN2 will have more PrC than NWN1.

 

Afterall, NWN2 will ALL the PrC from the two expansions + new ones.

 

I also find it silly for you to include fan based PrC when you are arguing in this thread that the vast majority of NWN players don't even use them. Talk about an illogical mis argument.

 

As for PrC go, NWN2 > NWN1.

 

This is trulty an undebatable thing. Everything else you have been saying in this thread, I pretty much agree with; but not this.

[Cantousent]

I'm getting confused. Are we saying the packaged campaign will have more NPCs, or the toolset?

[Gromnir]

"you cannot simply compare nwn2 to nwn..."

 

NWN2 will have more PrC than NWN1.

 

Afterall, NWN2 will ALL the PrC from the two expansions + new ones.

 

I also find it silly for you to include fan based PrC when you are arguing in this thread that the vast majority of NWN players don't even use them. Talk about an illogical mis argument.

 

As for PrC go, NWN2 > NWN1.

 

This is trulty an undebatable thing. Everything else you have been saying in this thread, I pretty much agree with; but not this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

am not sure what you are talking 'bout. Gromnir sure never mentioned fan made PrCs.

 

also, am not sure where you is getting your info from that the old PrCs from nwn1 will be included and playable in nwn2. please supply a link.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"am not sure what you are talking 'bout. Gromnir sure never mentioned fan made PrCs."

 

Hmm.. I must have gone crazy as I just reread your post, and you are right. Hmm....

 

 

"also, am not sure where you is getting your info from that the old PrCs from nwn1 will be included and playable in nwn2."

 

From Obsidian.

 

 

"please supply a link."

 

http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/neverwi...ights2_i2.phtml

 

 

For someone who knows so much; one would think you would know this factual info that came striaght from Obsidian both in interviews such as this plus the NWN2 boards.

 

Hmm..

 

Let's call it draw because of my earlier mistake.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

didn't know we were in competition.. Gromnir were genuinely looking for info as we ain't spent much time at the bio boards in a while and last we heard were that there were some serious backwards compatability issues with PrCs... would have to be redone from scratch almost. would still like to see some confirmation from a current member of the development team, but at least the obsidians ain't starting from square 1 with PrCs... though that doesn't seem to mesh with some of josh's recent comments.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Cantousent]

Are all those PrCs going to be in the packaged campaign?

[Volourn]

Of course. It's part of the character creation process, and Obsidian hasn't stated or implied that they'd somehow be blocked in the actual OC.

[Darque]

That'll be a lot of prcs.

 

If they add Mystic Theurge I'm sure the boards will go wild.

 

If they added Eldritch Knight I'd be fairly happy as well. :ph34r:

[Cantousent]

How do you implement that many PrCs into the campaign? It won't mean anything. It's just idiotic. Well, I've seen some good and bad ideas so far.

[Darque]

Easy, programing and scripting

 

Or did you mean from a story/campaign perspective?

 

If so, my guess they won't, it'll all be mechanical.

[Enoch]

Easy, programing and scripting

 

Or did you mean from a story/campaign perspective?

 

If so, my guess they won't, it'll all be mechanical.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which means it'll be nothing more than a collection of feats with a cool name.

[Judge Hades]

Nearly all prestige classes fall in that catagory.

[StillLife]

Not to diverge too much off topic, but since there are some D&D knowledeable people participating in this thread: Why do you feel there are so many FR CPRGs and no Dragonlance? Did that setting die/become FUBAR or something? I haven't followed it for ages. Last I noticed, there was another Cataclysm or something and the minotaurs took over Ansalon, but I had assumed it was still alive and kicking.

 

Anyway, they are both somewhat traditional fantasy settings--yet DragonLance seems to be greatly underused as a video game setting. Both have popular books with very popular characters(Raistlin anyone?), but the differing races in Dragonlance always seemed more interesting to me than FR. I hate halflings and as I mentioned earlier, Drow are lame. Krynn Minotaurs and Kender are great though. The gods and the way magic was split into alignments was more interesting too.

[Cantousent]

Good question, SL. i think some of it might have to do with the setting being overpowered. DragonLance might not have been overpowered enough for the folks who love the best left Forgotten Realms.

 

Seriously, though, every setting seems to get more and more ridiculous.

 

That's one area where the Bethesda writers really are better than the Forgettable Realms writers. In either Borrwingwind or Oblivion, the player can pick up a random history. The things actually read like a history. Oh, they're not like histories of old. It tries, as best as possible, to be the boring, soulless gaping black hole of an account that modern history is. ...But at least every account doesn't include some ridiculously over-powered figure who leads some super-powered army against some under-powered kingdom only to be thwarted by some uber-powered munchkin monger.

 

I hate the Forlaughable Realms. I hate the fact that Elminster is apprently everywhere and invincible. If he's everywhere and can beat just about anything, why the hell doesn't he take matters into his own hand? I hate the villains. I hate the hype. I hate the canon. Good Lord, I hate the canon.

 

Wait, I'm running out of steam. I'll revisit your question again later.