Revan's fate...

[Jediphile]

To get back to the options in the poll, I like the idea of having Revan spy on the Sith or have initiated a civil war among the True Sith. Personally, I have the opinion that Revan started this Sith Civil war during the Jedi Civil War, before the events of Kotor I and when he/she returned to the unknown (after Kotor I) found out that his/her plans were discovered and the only thing he/she could do is spy on them. To do that best however, he/she needed someone else to spy on them since Revan would have been recognized by the True Sith masters and the new Dark lord, the bad guy we should kill in the end of a possible Kotor III who has "promised a great reward to whoever destroys Revan".

 

How much I liked that line in Kotor I.

Allthough I think it is a pretty good idea to have Revan sacrificing him/herself to the DS so he/she can wear a mask to make it pretty easy for the Devs to implement Revan into Kotor III I wouldn't exactly like it to have to kill Revan in the end because he/she became the new Dark Lord. Okay, we could maybe finish LS and defeat Revan and make him/her unconscious for those of us that would like to let him/her alive or perhaps let Revan live and serve under him/her as the Dark lords apprentice.

I wonder what's best?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I see it pretty much the same way. What I would like is essentially the Dark Lord of the true Sith is planning an invasion of the crippled republic. Now, if Revan ended up as LS in K1, then you need to find him, redeem him, and then overthrow the Dark Lord with Revan's help. However, if Revan was DS in K1, then Revan *IS* the Dark Lord of the true Sith, and you have to overthrow him yourself, either to save the republic (LS choice) or to take his place (DS choice).

[Guest The Architect]

I see it pretty much the same way. What I would like is essentially the Dark Lord of the true Sith is planning an invasion of the crippled republic. Now, if Revan ended up as LS in K1, then you need to find him, redeem him, and then overthrow the Dark Lord with Revan's help. However, if Revan was DS in K1, then Revan *IS* the Dark Lord of the true Sith, and you have to overthrow him yourself, either to save the republic (LS choice) or to take his place (DS choice).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed, and to expand on this more, yes, if you set Revan as LS then he/she should be 'redeemable', however, if you fail to redeem Revan then you have the option of either killing him/her or placing him/her under arrest on behalf of the Galactic Senate.

 

And yes if you set Revan as DS then Revan should be the 'Dark Lord' of the True Sith. I'd give the player four options in this case scenario, two LS and two DS. The two LS ones to add up to you saving the Jedi/Republic and defeating the Dark Lord, the only difference is you have the option of either killing Revan or placing him/her under arrest on behalf of the Galactic Senate. The two DS options result in you joining the 'True Sith', you either kill Revan and take his/her place as the Dark Lord yourself or prove yourself worthy to Revan and become his/her apprentice. How does that all sound?

[Hekate]

Yeah but remember this, although it is true that Carth runs away from a DSM Revan before you even get a chance to kill him if you set Revan as a DSM in K2 he's not the Admiral, in fact, he's no where to be seen in K2 for the DSM Revan so my point is if he were still alive (for DSM Revan) then wouldn't he be the Admiral in K2? Cede is the Admiral in K2 if you set Revan as DS, not Carth, which suggests to me he's dead.Even if Carth is alive (for DSM Revan) he shouldn't have a major role in K3 because in this case he's not the Admiral, Cede is, hence, he wouldn't have much of a signifiance or an impact as far as I can tell, nah, to me it's best just to leave Carth dead if Revan's DS, leave him out of the equation for DSM and DSF Revan, why? Well, characters like this are one's that are best to just leave alone because Carth could of either been killed or survived with a DSF Revan and instead of 'forcing' what scenario's occured on the player if the character is not seen in the game it's all a matter of the player's point of view, in your mind you can say, ah, Carth is dead or you can say well I reckon Carth is still alive and probably just hiding on some planet or whatever.

I must say, i find what you've said makes sound sense. In a way, going back to the pre-scripting discussions of earlier, leaving Carth out of it entirely with a DS Revan does allow for the player to decide for themselves and not to have their understanding of Carth messed around with for the sake of plot device. Having said that; I don't see why Revan gets to run off to face the "true" Sith threat and be all mysterious, but no one else can I might be poking a hornet nest with what i'm gonna say, but it is done in the vein to further discussion. There are many possible explanations for what could have happened to Carth. Maybe he shot himself with a blaster, maybe he was taken prisoner by the Sith after they defeated the Republic and Revan him/herself has been messin' with Carth's mind and decided to take him along to go do whatever it is Revan is doing out there against the "true" Sith, or maybe, assuming Carth is Force sensitive to some degree (opinion based on the hinting at it done in KotOR), Revan decided to corrupt him as Revan did the Jedi hunters Atton was a part of and use him in that way 'out there'. Or the Republic/neutral party rescued him and he now is hell-bent and determined to save/get vengeance on Revan and has chosen to learn less admiral type skills and in place, more assassin type in order to do so. Just as Saul got to uncontestedly destroy Telos by Carth not even have it cross his mind Saul could betrayed the Republic, he desperately needs to stop Revan for the same reason. Like it or not, the fact is, Revan is alive because Carth helped her/him on the Endar Spire and saved her/him after they crashed on Taris and certainly in the earlier part of the game on Taris. So rather than a whiny Carth, he is now a bloodthirsty Carth and all these Carth haters will like him now that he is an evil saddistic bastard. It is even possible Revan took Carth prisoner, but instead of trying to corrupt him, Revan kept Carth whole specifically as a counterpoint, as a type of reminder of saving the galaxy being what is important (assuming a DS Revan with a save the galaxy goal). Point is (yes, there is one...), i find it mildly ironic how those who mock 'Revan fanboyism' are the same who allow only for Revan to be capable and adaptive.

 

Of course you don't have to agree with me on this but I would like to hear your opinions on this matter more.

 

Mwahahahahaha Sure you're up to it? Nah, i'm just kiddin'. I'm gald you asked. :D

 

 

I am rather fond of the LS female Revan story. Much more so than for any of the other Revan incarnations. My opinion might be different if the detailed background info on Revan from KotOR II was there in the first game, but since it was meant as a standalone, of course it wouldn't be there in the first. So with my preference in mind, as i have said lots before (3 times? That isn't really 'lots' as such...), i want the casts from the previous KotORs to be in the third. Putting the whole mess of the cut KotOR II endings aside, and the whole cut Revan and Carth die on the Star Forge together ending aside as well (kinda have to considering Revan would be dead...), it would be in keeping with the past echoing (reference intended) into the future that began in KotOR, got elaborated on in KotOR II, and IMHO, should be carried on into III as the end result now being shown. The whole destiny, how (as Kreia often spoke of) the ripples from the past create waves into the future, cause and effect, and all that stuff, comes full circle in III having to do with Revan. IMO, Revan is really the central figure to all the story. And i say that not out of Revan (nor self) worship, i say that because after reading all these ideas on these forums, i came to see Exile as a product of what Revan did (my opinion only. I do welcome other ideas). And Exile's companions are a product of how Exile affects them. Even the state the galaxy is in is due to Revan (not the reason behind the Mandalorian Wars of course, just the outcome thereof). I'm not saying Revan is a god-like uber powerful being. I'm saying Revan, whether a genius or not, successfully directed the course of recent history. And those who affected Revan the most post Revan's near-death are key figures and important to carry on with into the future (KotOR III). If one would argue that binging them back in III is superfluous, then i say bringing Canderous and HK-47 back in II is superfluous as well. T3-M4 was needed as a plot devise to tie Revan into II.

 

As far as what i think should happen Carth wise with a DS Revan in KotOR, and with a DS scripted Revan in III; i don't really know. A confrontation is an obvious choice. Carth being the key to Revan's redemption is another - and not just as LS female Revan inKotOR. Depending on the circumstances, I think friendship can be stronger than romantic love. Kinda like in Buffy the Vampire Slayer how Zander was the only one who could redeem Willow when she went power and destruction mad. (As a reference, the mundane person is the only one who can get through to the powerful one specifically because the mundane person doesn't have this insane power). I'll have to think about it more. There may be potential merrit to what i wrote in the first paragraph, there may not. What do you think about it now?

 

 

To get back to the options in the poll, I like the idea of having Revan spy on the Sith or have initiated a civil war among the True Sith. Personally, I have the opinion that Revan started this Sith Civil war during the Jedi Civil War, before the events of Kotor I and when he/she returned to the unknown (after Kotor I) found out that his/her plans were discovered and the only thing he/she could do is spy on them. To do that best however, he/she needed someone else to spy on them since Revan would have been recognized by the True Sith masters and the new Dark lord, the bad guy we should kill in the end of a possible Kotor III who has "promised a great reward to whoever destroys Revan".

 

How much I liked that line in Kotor I.

Allthough I think it is a pretty good idea to have Revan sacrificing him/herself to the DS so he/she can wear a mask to make it pretty easy for the Devs to implement Revan into Kotor III I wouldn't exactly like it to have to kill Revan in the end because he/she became the new Dark Lord. Okay, we could maybe finish LS and defeat Revan and make him/her unconscious for those of us that would like to let him/her alive or perhaps let Revan live and serve under him/her as the Dark lords apprentice.

I wonder what's best?

 

I see it pretty much the same way. What I would like is essentially the Dark Lord of the true Sith is planning an invasion of the crippled republic. Now, if Revan ended up as LS in K1, then you need to find him, redeem him, and then overthrow the Dark Lord with Revan's help. However, if Revan was DS in K1, then Revan *IS* the Dark Lord of the true Sith, and you have to overthrow him yourself, either to save the republic (LS choice) or to take his place (DS choice).

 

Agreed, and to expand on this more, yes, if you set Revan as LS then he/she should be 'redeemable', however, if you fail to redeem Revan then you have the option of either killing him/her or placing him/her under arrest on behalf of the Galactic Senate.

 

And yes if you set Revan as DS then Revan should be the 'Dark Lord' of the True Sith. I'd give the player four options in this case scenario, two LS and two DS. The two LS ones to add up to you saving the Jedi/Republic and defeating the Dark Lord, the only difference is you have the option of either killing Revan or placing him/her under arrest on behalf of the Galactic Senate. The two DS options result in you joining the 'True Sith', you either kill Revan and take his/her place as the Dark Lord yourself or prove yourself worthy to Revan and become his/her apprentice. How does that all sound?

I really like those ideas. The idea of Revan having already caused a civil war between the "true" Sith and came back to unite the galaxy against that threat is incredible. The problem i see with that is: is it possible for Revan to have done that in such a short time and so effectively, or at all? Certainly, depending on the type of society and governance they have, it could be done. Hell, Revan could even have become a True Sith Idol (celebrity) and used that wealth and power to influence politics . Joking aside, i find it unlikely Revan could have caused a civil war. If these Sith have it together and pose a real threat as Kreia suggested, and did that very same thing to the Republic (they are said to be the ones who convinced Mandalore to begin the Mandalorian Wars), then one would assume they have it together enough not to be so suceptible themselves. One could counter that point by suggesting the nature of the Sith beast is mistrust and in-fighting. Sure. But when they have a strong leader, there is an absolute rule with an iron fist. If it could work, it would depend greatly on their political regime's stability. Also, i assume since they are the Sith from 'out there' and are the 'true' Sith, they woud be quite different than the Sith the Republic has to deal with. It would be a bit of a let down if these "true" Sith are as cannon-fodderish, mindless, and easy to beat by just killing lots and lots of 'em as the Sith from the known galaxy are. For gamers, i think, the idea of the "true" Sith is intriguing and suggestive of someting more challenging and in depth than more of the same. But that is just what i think thus far. :ph34r:

 

Conversely, it might be neat if it was uncovered Revan really is a 'true' Sith, and s/he can't resist the call of home, as Kreia put it. Which may also explain Revan's always inevitably falling to the DS in the end, and her/his tactical genius if that is indeed what s/he has.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Hekate

[DeathScepter]

The Ways of The Sith are quite dangerous and chaotic.

 

 

So a Civil War is plausible.

[Guest The Architect]

I must say, i find what you've said makes sound sense. In a way, going back to the pre-scripting discussions of earlier, leaving Carth out of it entirely with a DS Revan does allow for the player to decide for themselves and not to have their understanding of Carth messed around with for the sake of plot device. Having said that; I don't see why Revan gets to run off to face the "true" Sith threat and be all mysterious, but no one else can   I might be poking a hornet nest with what i'm gonna say, but it is done in the vein to further discussion. There are many possible explanations for what could have happened to Carth. Maybe he shot himself with a blaster, maybe he was taken prisoner by the Sith after they defeated the Republic and Revan him/herself has been messin' with Carth's mind and decided to take him along to go do whatever it is Revan is doing out there against the "true" Sith, or maybe, assuming Carth is Force sensitive to some degree (opinion based on the hinting at it done in KotOR), Revan decided to corrupt him as Revan did the Jedi hunters Atton was a part of and use him in that way 'out there'. Or the Republic/neutral party rescued him and he now is hell-bent and determined to save/get vengeance on Revan and has chosen to learn less admiral type skills and in place, more assassin type in order to do so. Just as Saul got to uncontestedly destroy Telos by Carth not even have it cross his mind Saul could betrayed the Republic, he desperately needs to stop Revan for the same reason. Like it or not, the fact is, Revan is alive because Carth helped her/him on the Endar Spire and saved her/him after they crashed on Taris and certainly in the earlier part of the game on Taris. So rather than a whiny Carth, he is now a bloodthirsty Carth and all these Carth haters will like him now that he is an evil saddistic bastard.    It is even possible Revan took Carth prisoner, but instead of trying to corrupt him, Revan kept Carth whole specifically as a counterpoint, as a type of reminder of saving the galaxy being what is important (assuming a DS Revan with a save the galaxy goal). Point is (yes, there is one...), i find it mildly ironic how those who mock 'Revan fanboyism' are the same who allow only for Revan to be capable and adaptive. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well you pretty much get the idea anyway. Don't you think it would be better if you get to decide for yourself what happens to Carth if Revan is set as DS instead of having the devs force a scenario on you? There are so many possibilities aren't there? And since he's not the Admiral if Revan's DS, then he has no real role or significance, he could be dead, or anything, but as far as being involved in K3's plot goes (if you set Revan as DS) nah, can't see any room for him. Of course obviously if you set Revan as LS then Carth could play a majo role IMO but definately NOT be a party member.

 

 

I am rather fond of the LS female Revan story. Much more so than for any of the other Revan incarnations. My opinion might be different if the detailed background info on Revan from KotOR II was there in the first game, but since it was meant as a standalone, of course it wouldn't be there in the first. So with my preference in mind, as i have said lots before (3 times? That isn't really 'lots' as such...), i want the casts from the previous KotORs to be in the third. Putting the whole mess of the cut KotOR II endings aside, and the whole cut Revan and Carth die on the Star Forge together ending aside as well (kinda have to considering Revan would be dead...), it would be in keeping with the past echoing (reference intended) into the future that began in KotOR, got elaborated on in KotOR II, and IMHO, should be carried on into III as the end result now being shown. The whole destiny, how (as Kreia often spoke of) the ripples from the past create waves into the future, cause and effect, and all that stuff, comes full circle in III having to do with Revan. IMO, Revan is really the central figure to all the story. And i say that not out of Revan (nor self) worship, i say that because after reading all these ideas on these forums, i came to see Exile as a product of what Revan did (my opinion only. I do welcome other ideas). And Exile's companions are a product of how Exile affects them. Even the state the galaxy is in is due to Revan (not the reason behind the Mandalorian Wars of course, just the outcome thereof). I'm not saying Revan is a god-like uber powerful being. I'm saying Revan, whether a genius or not, successfully directed the course of recent history. And those who affected Revan the most post Revan's near-death are key figures and important to carry on with into the future (KotOR III). If one would argue that binging them back in III is superfluous, then i say bringing Canderous and HK-47 back in II is superfluous as well. T3-M4 was needed as a plot devise to tie Revan into II.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, in my K3 plot (in development), T3-M4, HK-47, Canderous Ordo (Mandalore), Carth/Cede and Bastila play significant roles as do other characters from the previous KOTOR's in my plot. I've also suggested that character's that could of died from the previous KOTOR's could have replacable characters 'if' there dead and those type of characters such as Mission, Jolee or Zaalbar could have 'effective' roles but minor because you have to take cost, time and the amount of writing into consideration if you know what I mean.

 

As far as what i think should happen Carth wise with a DS Revan in KotOR, and with a DS scripted Revan in III; i don't really know. A confrontation is an obvious choice. Carth being the key to Revan's redemption is another - and not just as LS female Revan inKotOR. Depending on the circumstances, I think friendship can be stronger than romantic love. Kinda like in Buffy the Vampire Slayer how Zander was the only one who could redeem Willow when she went power and destruction mad. (As a reference, the mundane person is the only one who can get through to the powerful one specifically because the mundane person doesn't have this insane power). I'll have to think about it more. There may be potential merrit to what i wrote in the first paragraph, there may not. What do you think about it now?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If your talking about your K3 main character setting Revan to LS which makes Revan 'redeemable' in K3 then Carth (LSM Revan) would have a significant role as the Admiral (I've thought of a useful and hardworking role for Carth) and for (LSF Revan) well he's role will be even more major, besides being the Admiral and all, yes, he could play an effective part in Revan's redemption, that's of course, if your main character wants to redeem Revan, we shouldn't be forced to.

 

I really like those ideas. The idea of Revan having already caused a civil war between the "true" Sith and came back to unite the galaxy against that threat is incredible. The problem i see with that is: is it possible for Revan to have done that in such a short time and so effectively, or at all? Certainly, depending on the type of society and governance they have, it could be done. Hell, Revan could even have become a True Sith Idol (celebrity) and used that wealth and power to influence politics    . Joking aside, i find it unlikely Revan could have caused a civil war. If these Sith have it together and pose a real threat as Kreia suggested, and did that very same thing to the Republic (they are said to be the ones who convinced Mandalore to begin the Mandalorian Wars), then one would assume they have it together enough not to be so suceptible themselves. One could counter that point by suggesting the nature of the Sith beast is mistrust and in-fighting. Sure. But when they have a strong leader, there is an absolute rule with an iron fist. If it could work, it would depend greatly on their political regime's stability. Also, i assume since they are the Sith from 'out there' and are the 'true' Sith, they woud be quite different than the Sith the Republic has to deal with. It would be a bit of a let down if these "true" Sith are as cannon-fodderish, mindless, and easy to beat by just killing lots and lots of 'em as the Sith from the known galaxy are. For gamers, i think, the idea of the "true" Sith is intriguing and suggestive of someting more challenging and in depth than more of the same. But that is just what i think thus far. :ph34r:

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, a few months after the defeat of Darth Malak Revan's full memories returned and he/she remembered something he/she saw in the outer-rim/unknown regions that to him/her was deemed as a threat. So, regardless of Revan's alignment, he heads off to the unknown regions to 'stop' the True Sith, what exactly Revan is doing in the unknown regions remains a mystery (but Jediphile's explanation rocks IMO ) but think about this, K2 takes place approximately five years after the events of K1 so Revan's been in the unknown regions for something like four and a half years, I think that's plenty of time to plan, conspire and start a civil war amongst the True Sith Empire, don't you?

 

 

Conversely, it might be neat if it was uncovered Revan really is a 'true' Sith, and s/he can't resist the call of home, as Kreia put it. Which may also explain Revan's always inevitably falling to the DS in the end, and her/his tactical genius if that is indeed what s/he has.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nah. Why would the Jedi Order have trained Revan in the first place if he/she was a 'True Sith' or one of the half-breeds? And if Revan was a 'True Sith' then he/she would of been raised in the unknown regions and never would of joined the Jedi Order or fought in the Mandalorian Wars/Jedi Civil War but hey, I do like the idea of the 'True Sith' being perhaps linked to Revan's homeworld or something along those lines, that's plausible.

[Jediphile]

Well you pretty much get the idea anyway. Don't you think it would be better if you get to decide for yourself what happens to Carth if Revan is set as DS instead of having the devs force a scenario on you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. IF DS Revan is not going to be redeemable, then Carth serves no purpose in the plot and can be safely ignored. If Revan is LS, however, Carth becomes important, and essential if Revan is also female.

 

Well, in my K3 plot (in development), T3-M4, HK-47, Canderous Ordo (Mandalore), Carth/Cede and Bastila play significant roles as do other characters from the previous KOTOR's in my plot. I've also suggested that character's that could of died from the previous KOTOR's could have replacable characters 'if' there dead and those type of characters such as Mission, Jolee or Zaalbar could have 'effective' roles but minor because you have to take cost, time and the amount of writing into consideration if you know what I mean.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the only one I did kill off (or rather not use) was Juhani from K1. Not many seem to any particular affection for her (or they at least like other characters more), and I don't really either. I don't hate her - she's an okay character to me - but I do find most of the others more interesting. So I just assumed that she, too, had been killed on Kataar (assuming LS Revan). But yes, the rest of them where in there to some extent, at least in the LS Revan/LS Exile version.

 

Well, a few months after the defeat of Darth Malak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, it was an entire year after.

 

Revan's full memories returned and he/she remembered something he/she saw in the outer-rim/unknown regions that to him/her was deemed as a threat. So, regardless of Revan's alignment, he heads off to the unknown regions to 'stop' the True Sith, what exactly Revan is doing in the unknown regions remains a mystery (but Jediphile's explanation rocks IMO  ) but think about this, K2 takes place approximately five years after the events of K1 so Revan's been in the unknown regions for something like four and a half years, I think that's plenty of time to plan, conspire and start a civil war amongst the True Sith Empire, don't you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan has just had four years, but then he fought - and won - the Mandalorian Wars in less...

 

(oh, and thanks)

 

 

Nah. Why would the Jedi Order have trained Revan in the first place if he/she was a 'True Sith' or one of the half-breeds? And if Revan was a 'True Sith' then he/she would of been raised in the unknown regions and never would of joined the Jedi Order or fought in the Mandalorian Wars/Jedi Civil War but hey, I do like the idea of the 'True Sith' being perhaps linked to Revan's homeworld or something along those lines, that's plausible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, it would seem odd that Revan was trained by the jedi order, if he was a true Sith. Still, it could be the case, if there is a really good explanation, but I'd prefer not to. It seems too much like retconning Revan, and we already saw some of that. I didn't mind in K2, since it was done tastefully and without betraying the character, but I'd prefer it didn't go any further than that. Revan coming from a world (Deralia?) living in the shadow of the proximity of the true Sith is a valid option, though.

[DeathScepter]

I do think that the True Sith are much harder to Defeat than the Mandolarians.

 

 

IF Mandolarians are brutal, and Then Revan's Sith Order is even more brutal than they are and being more dangerous.

 

Then if the pattern contiunes, The True Sith Empire would be quite dangerous.

 

 

If I do understand Revan's stragtey correctly, He set the Jedi Civil War up so it will be a Win Win Situation for him.

 

 

I mean The Republic stays united even more closely if they win by weeding out the weak.

 

Or His Sith Empire will challenge the True Sith Empire.

 

 

 

Either way, A stable strong government with a strong military is key.

 

 

TO me, Revan is disilliusoned by the End of the Mandolarian Wars. In that Disilliusionment, he fell to the dark side.

[Jediphile]

If I do understand Revan's stragtey correctly,  He set the Jedi Civil War up so it will be a Win Win Situation for him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's where I disagree, because if Revan really needed to fight the true Sith, then he would have needed the republic unharmed and prepared for war. But instead he spent his own resources of manpower and ships to attack and attempt to conquer the republic, pushing both sides (republic and his own sith forces) to exhaustion. That doesn't suggest to me that he was trying to save the republic, since it will be weaker for it, as it does that he just wanted to conquer it for power.

 

Besides, Revan doesn't remember about the true Sith until a year after K1.

 

It's true that Revan did not attack some targets, notably Onderon, due to it's strategic importance on the outskirts of the republic, which suggests he needed it as a base or bastion against the true Sith, but that can as easily mean "I need that world to protect my empire later" as it can "we need it to protect the republic from the true Sith".

 

I think Revan knew about the Sith at the end of the Mandalorian Wars and converted the jedi to sith at Malachor V to create an army he could use against the true Sith. But I also think that Revan was seduced by the dark side's promise of power some time after that, and that this why he confitnued to fight the republc so hard.

[Guest The Architect]

That's where I disagree, because if Revan really needed to fight the true Sith, then he would have needed the republic unharmed and prepared for war. But instead he spent his own resources of manpower and ships to attack and attempt to conquer the republic, pushing both sides (republic and his own sith forces) to exhaustion. That doesn't suggest to me that he was trying to save the republic, since it will be weaker for it, as it does that he just wanted to conquer it for power.

 

Besides, Revan doesn't remember about the true Sith until a year after K1.

 

It's true that Revan did not attack some targets, notably Onderon, due to it's strategic importance on the outskirts of the republic, which suggests he needed it as a base or bastion against the true Sith, but that can as easily mean "I need that world to protect my empire later" as it can "we need it to protect the republic from the true Sith".

 

I think Revan knew about the Sith at the end of the Mandalorian Wars and converted the jedi to sith at Malachor V to create an army he could use against the true Sith. But I also think that Revan was seduced by the dark side's promise of power some time after that, and that this why he confitnued to fight the republc so hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly! You know it frustrates me that some people don't understand this, it's pretty clear to me IMO. Also, one of K1's biggest themes was that even the greatest of Jedi/hero's can fall to the dark-side.

 

I do beleive that Revan perhaps did 'sacrifice' himself/herself to the dark-side and started out with good-intentions and thought that he/she could remain a 'good guy/girl' but he/she was eventually corrupted by the power of the dark-side kind of like Anakin from a certain point of view in which he thought what he was doing was good and he had good intentions but no matter what he says or does he was corrupted by the power of the dark-side, just like Revan was IMO.

 

It's also been pointed out many times via dialogue in K1 that the Republic was WEAKENED, NOT strengthened by the Jedi Civil War, and tell me this, if Revan knew about the True Sith and was converting/killing Jedi then why didn't he/she tell Malak or anyone from the Sith from K1 about this?

 

It's obvious that Malak or no-one from the Sith in K1 knew about the 'True Sith' because all they were focused on was 'crushing the Republic' from the words of Darth Malak himself and destroying the Jedi Order. What did Revan suddenly forget to tell his/her Sith Empire why they were going to attack the Republic and kill/convert the Jedi? With all the secrets that Revan's closest friend Malak knew (Star Forge, DS Powers, etc) why didn't Malak know about the 'True Sith'? This is probably the biggest problem or continuity error I saw with this 'True Sith' idea. Obsidian should have already made things a bit more clear on this issue, well perhaps they will in K3, if there is one.

[Sturm]

So a Civil War is plausible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

a civil war here is plausible, for these people are continually debating on who knows what, because its so big and reading the first line hurts your eyes

[The Yeti of 66]

I thought Revan was a true Sith actually..... it would be possible since the Jedi are just blind old swordsman after Exar Kun's war.

 

Well anyone that thought that Revan had good intentions in it was right, but that makes it no justification. The worst things imaginable have been done with the best of intentions. I think that Revan saw that the Republic was no system to be fighting with. To work in politics and do all of that nonsense to get a leader would have been pointless. The system was hopelessly corrupt anyway. Also, the war Revan was fighting was a coverup for the real war. How could so many Jedi fall so easily? Because they were the focus of the war.

 

Revan may have succumbed to the power of the Dark Side, and was twisted by it. However that did not changed the goal, it didn't even matter as far as the goal went. In the war Revan needed a strong system with him as a leader and general, and he needed the assasins. He just needed the army and the means to supply it.

 

On the other hand though, even if Revan stayed true to the goal and saved the galaxy from the Sith through evil means even with the best of intentions. He still did fall to the Dark Side, and the galaxy would probably not be given back to the people. Corrupt leader! Ack.

[Benjamin Korr]

I dont think he's found them yet, I think he's out there searching for them still, in fact, that might be your job in Kotor 3, is to play Revan and to locate and destroy/join the so called "True Sith". Just a thought.

[hawk]

I dont think he's found them yet, I think he's out there searching for them still, in fact, that might be your job in Kotor 3, is to play Revan and to locate and destroy/join the so called "True Sith". Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would it take you five years to find something you remembered from your past? And would you then start as a level 20 Revan or somehow loose your powers again.

I appreciate your opinion but I think this isn't exactly what we would like to see.

[DeathScepter]

Well Start out as Revan but in a prison, being tortured with realistic and Star Wars based torture method being used on Revan.

 

 

In where Revan is weaken being tortured at least a good year.

 

 

That is how Revan can restart at lvl 1 again because being tortured will take a lot out of you.

[Hekate]

The fanboys played Revan and so identify with him, and therefore Revan *MUST* be this tactical supra-genius who alone among all jedi or sith in the entire galaxy ever understood what was really going on and was the only one who had the courage, determination, and resolve to do *the one thing* that had to be done to stop the true Sith...

 

That all has an uncomfortable sense of narcissism expressed through Revan, I think

 

It also dehumanizes Revan, since he becomes like this perfect machine who can do no wrong ever instead of being a credible character 

 

Not sure which of the two is worse, but they are both bad IMHO  :ph34r:

"Methinks thou dost protest too much" :D

 

Ok, let's get some perspective here. Revan would have to be pretty smart and capable in order to accomplish all s/he has (ie: rip languages out from other peoples' minds with full comprehension as well as implant them, sought knowledge and learned it at an incredible rate and from many sources, strategized how to make best use of the Mandalorian Wars in order to achieve her/his goals, came up with the whole Sith Jedi hunters, established academies and an entire new Sith order, among a whole bunch of other things). And according to some, Revan is now all alone taking on the 'true' Sith empire. Did i mention alone? So Revan is a cut beyond the norm by any measure.

 

That having been said, of course Revan is flawed. That is the whole point. A perfect Revan would have been able to miraculously get the Jedi Masters and Republlic Senate to believe in the threat of the 'true' Sith, unite all the galaxy with the common goal of defending it, and brought intra-galactic peace and security (where a truly phenomenal Revan would be a devoted Jedi who thinks outside the box and can handle being married and a parent and can bake kick-ass chocolate chip cookies). What did Revan do instead? S/he decides to break the galaxy in order to remold it to best serve her/his purposes. Certainly that is easier than getting the Senate to agree on anything, but it is not how it should have been done. Major, tragic flaws. And that is what makes Revan so compelling as a character.

 

BTW, just because a person played Revan and thinks s/he is a super genius, super cool, and super amazing, doesn't necessarily mean that person identifies with Revan. A person could actually feel completely detached from Revan, or very unlike Revan even, and still find her/him to be a tactical genius. So there :D

Well you pretty much get the idea anyway. Don't you think it would be better if you get to decide for yourself what happens to Carth if Revan is set as DS instead of having the devs force a scenario on you? There are so many possibilities aren't there? And since he's not the Admiral if Revan's DS, then he has no real role or significance, he could be dead, or anything, but as far as being involved in K3's plot goes (if you set Revan as DS) nah, can't see any room for him. Of course obviously if you set Revan as LS then Carth could play a majo role IMO but definately NOT be a party member.

Actually, i felt they pretty much forced alot of stuff on the player, especially having to kill teammates (KotOR) and Jedi Masters (KotOR II), or if how if a character is DS that has to automatically mean anti-Republic. I understand it is part of the overarcing story line, but that irked me anyway. But all i was saying (using alot of words) with regards to the whole Carth issue is, with a DS Revan being pre-scripted and having chosen Revan to be DS at the end of (KotOR), i feel it pushes everything Revan went through emotionally and psychologically to the fringe. I can accept Revan chose the DS. I can even accept Revan falling to the DS in III if LS in the first (albeit with great reluctance and much poutting). What i have trouble accepting is that everyone Revan spent all that time with in very difficult situations while recovering from near-death and mindwiping had no effect on her/him. Not saying Revan had to have liked them or anything, just saying they'd have affected her/him profoundly. The best way to depict that in a game would be through the characters reappearing. But that doesn't have to be the case. I just don't want them to disappear and be ignored. Revan as DS killed off everyone who wasn't DS. Carth is the only one who may have survived, with the exception of DS female Revan if they were in a romantic relationship, so i'll ignore that option to make my point. If they play a role in III, then Carth would be the only one to be able to do so (DS).

 

Well, in my K3 plot (in development), T3-M4, HK-47, Canderous Ordo (Mandalore), Carth/Cede and Bastila play significant roles as do other characters from the previous KOTOR's in my plot. I've also suggested that character's that could of died from the previous KOTOR's could have replacable characters 'if' there dead and those type of characters such as Mission, Jolee or Zaalbar could have 'effective' roles but minor because you have to take cost, time and the amount of writing into consideration if you know what I mean.

Yeah, i do. And it is one of those unfortunate money vs. kick-ass story things. What is your story anyway? Sounds inetersting :cool:

 

If your talking about your K3 main character setting Revan to LS which makes Revan 'redeemable' in K3 then Carth (LSM Revan) would have a significant role as the Admiral (I've thought of a useful and hardworking role for Carth) and for (LSF Revan) well he's role will be even more major, besides being the Admiral and all, yes, he could play an effective part in Revan's redemption, that's of course, if your main character wants to redeem Revan, we shouldn't be forced to.

I think here the issue of forcing a scenario comes into play again. The question is at what point is the DS option of taking on the top dog to become the new top dog no longer viable. Eventually, the Republic and/or affiliates thereof have to win. It exists in the 'Anakin era', so it can't be destroyed in the games. In that sense, it is forced, and no matter how hard a power-hungry megalomaniac genius tries, eventually the DS will lose. Personally, i don't want another DS character that has to be hell-bent on becoming the next leader. As B'ree the merchant in Dreshdae said "Just between you and me, I'll never understand why everyone thinks 'dark side' and 'hooligan' are the same thing." I saw Revan more as a personal type of DS than an external one. That is to say, s/he made the sacrifice rather than became a thug as Malak did. An immoral, short-sighted, and rather delusional thug at that. Conversely, a DS character can be an obnoxious brute but still be loyal to the Republic and not want to engage in mass destruction, even if in the destruction of those who get directly in their way.

 

IF DS Revan is not going to be redeemable, then Carth serves no purpose in the plot and can be safely ignored. If Revan is LS, however, Carth becomes important, and essential if Revan is also female.

Our opinions differ in this. I think Carth being a link to Revan's past is important, especially given Revan's mindwipe and all that. Just because Revan isn't redeemable doesn't mean Carth shouldn't be there. It would be similar to Exile's facing the past to set her/himself for the future in the cave. If in III DS Revan comes to a cross-roads and introspects, then having to reaffirm her/his DS path , or choosing to leave it, Carth would play a pivotal role. Differences in perspective make life more interesting, eh? I rather enjoy reading them.

 

Revan's full memories returned and he/she remembered something he/she saw in the outer-rim/unknown regions that to him/her was deemed as a threat. So, regardless of Revan's alignment, he heads off to the unknown regions to 'stop' the True Sith, what exactly Revan is doing in the unknown regions remains a mystery (but Jediphile's explanation rocks IMO thumbsup.gif) but think about this, K2 takes place approximately five years after the events of K1 so Revan's been in the unknown regions for something like four and a half years, I think that's plenty of time to plan, conspire and start a civil war amongst the True Sith Empire, don't you?

Revan has just had four years, but then he fought - and won - the Mandalorian Wars in less...

 

There is a difference between: convincing a bunch of Jedi to join a war eventhough it went against the Council's wishes, being able to learn Mandalorian tactics and improve on them and then use said tactics and a massive Republic fleet against the Mandalorians in order to win the war, and: single-handedly taking on a large and dangerous empire whose origins mix Force sensitivity into the population base, are tactically minded enough to instigate the Mandalorian Wars in a different section of the galaxy all together while conveniently letting their prey slug it out and weaken themselves, and who, by all counts, are said to be a hell of alot tougher both as individuals and in the consolidating effect of their beliefs. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? IMO, based on what we've been told about them so far, no. There would have to be sound reasoning behind it if that were the case. But here again; vive la difference!

 

I remember Kreia said Revan was fighting this war of belief but didn't Kreia also say, which Carth confirms, Revan went 'out there' to stop something terrible s/he had started? We assume that has something to do with the Sith wanting to come squish the Republic, but how could they have forgotten Korriban and Malachor V then? Again, my 'plot hole sense' is tingling.

 

I do not personally subscribe to the theory of Revan being a 'true' Sith, but imagine the irony of the Jedi Order training Revan twice. The whole notion of someone having to be a certain way because of their genetic make-up is rather limiting storywise. Or perhaps i should say a well worn cliche.

[hawk]

Good post Hekate.

 

The thing you said about "what Revan started" is something I didn't think about yet. It would open the possibility that If LS Revan started a Civil war among the Sith he/she wouldn't really care about that I think. Let them fight this civil war and they would just destroy themselves which is off course a good thing. It wouldn't be a good excuse for Revan to leave all his/her friends behind to fight this threat.

I guess I could write something in my storyline I currently work on as well. What Revan started............?????

[Hekate]

Good post Hekate.

 

The thing you said about "what Revan started" is something I didn't think about yet. It would open the possibility that If LS Revan started a Civil war among the Sith he/she wouldn't really care about that I think. Let them fight this civil war and they would just destroy themselves which is off course a good thing. It wouldn't be a good excuse for Revan to leave all his/her friends behind to fight this threat.

I guess I could write something in my storyline I currently work on as well. What Revan started............?????

Much obliged. Thank you :D I'd also like to hear your story. So far there are 4, IIRC. Is anyone going to post theirs somewhere?

 

And now for part 2 of my rant...

 

If I do understand Revan's stragtey correctly, He set the Jedi Civil War up so it will

be a Win Win Situation for him.

 

Either way, A stable strong government with a strong military is key.

 

Or His Sith Empire will challenge the True Sith Empire.

I agree. I wonder how things would have gone if the Mandalorians had won...

 

I mean The Republic stays united even more closely if they win by weeding out the weak.

I wonder about that. Who are you refering to as weak? Though the Republic also lost alot of strength by fighting in the war.

 

Exactly! You know it frustrates me that some people don't understand this, it's pretty clear to me IMO. Also, one of K1's biggest themes was that even the greatest of Jedi/hero's can fall to the dark-side.

It may have less to do with not understanding those points of view as perhaps, even with taking those theories into account, thinking another is more likely or for whatever reason, prefered. Or i could just be way off on that, if you prefer... :D

 

I do beleive that Revan perhaps did 'sacrifice' himself/herself to the dark-side and started out with good-intentions and thought that he/she could remain a 'good guy/girl' but he/she was eventually corrupted by the power of the dark-side kind of like Anakin from a certain point of view in which he thought what he was doing was good and he had good intentions but no matter what he says or does he was corrupted by the power of the dark-side, just like Revan was IMO.

I've only seen the movies so judging from them it seems he didn't do things with good intentions at all. All of it seemed to stem from his own desires and want to be in control. I would like to know how you see good intent in him, if you don't mind. Wanting to save Padme is, of course, a good intention of its own. But in the movie, i felt by then it had little to do with Padme for who she was, and alot more to do with what Anakin wanted to try to force reality to be. He didn't even listen to her anymore at that point, it wasn't Padme that mattered, it was what she represented to him in his mind. In that though, the parallel can be drawn, Anakin's obsession to save Padme and Revan's obsession to save the galaxy.

 

It's also been pointed out many times via dialogue in K1 that the Republic was WEAKENED, NOT strengthened by the Jedi Civil War, and tell me this, if Revan knew about the True Sith and was converting/killing Jedi then why didn't he/she tell Malak or anyone from the Sith from K1 about this?

 

It's obvious that Malak or no-one from the Sith in K1 knew about the 'True Sith' because all they were focused on was 'crushing the Republic' from the words of Darth Malak himself and destroying the Jedi Order. What did Revan suddenly forget to tell his/her Sith Empire why they were going to attack the Republic and kill/convert the Jedi? With all the secrets that Revan's closest friend Malak knew (Star Forge, DS Powers, etc) why didn't Malak know about the 'True Sith'? This is probably the biggest problem or continuity error I saw with this 'True Sith' idea. Obsidian should have already made things a bit more clear on this issue, well perhaps they will in K3, if there is one.

 

I think the whole goal of Revan's involvement in the Mandalorian Wars was specifically to unite the galaxy in order to be able to defend against the impending doom, whatever form it would take. Revan decided it wasn't realistic to expect the Senate to comprehend this war of belief (arrogance perhaps fostered by Kreia), let alone agree on anything and be able to act on it. I think in witnessing all the death, in being responsible for so much death, in feeling the echoes and wounds in the Force that created, and in having this huge pressure of the 'true' Sith threat driving her/him, Revan lost her/his way. Revan lost what there was left of her/his humanity in being consumed by her/his goal. This is the flawed Revan, the Revan who is only human and came to believe the ends justified the means. And in doing so, Revan became corrupted and evil, and saw things, people, mostly as tools and a means to an end. That is why I believe Revan would not have told Malak. In Revan's mind, s/he has to do all this alone. No one else could possibly understand the magnitude, importance, nor scope of what s/he is trying to accomplish (meaning Revan became more delusional). And so on. The more insular and focused Revan became, the more Malak resented it and came to loathe her/him. Obviously it is more complicated than that, but that's the basics of how i see it.

 

And what Sith Lord in their right mind, or wrong one for that matter, would tell their minions what their true objectives are, especially if it was along the lines of saving the Republic? A soon to be dead one, i would think.

 

As far as the reason Revan would have told Malak and all about the Star Forge is pretty apparent. The Star Forge needs personnel and Malak was with Revan when they discovered the Star Maps and later the Star Forge.

 

To add to the answer of how Malak didn't know about the 'true' Sith could be as simple as he didn't do all the research and put all the pieces together as Revan did. It seems apparent too that Malak was at least a little unstable, or at least too attatched to Revan, and Revan felt it best not to tell him. It would make Malak less predictable and less easy to control. From the first cutscene with Malak & Revan on Dantooine, Malak was entirely submissive to Revan, even willing to go beyond the point of no return simply because Revan was. Devotion is a useful tool, but as Malak proves, it can be dangerous as well. And that also goes to show how flawed Revan was. Probably should'a seen Malak's betrayal coming, being so smart 'n all, but s/he didn't... Or maybe that was part of Revan's master plan too... Mwahahaha

 

 

a civil war here is plausible, for these people are continually debating on who knows what, because its so big and reading the first line hurts your eyes

 

:D

[Jediphile]

If in III DS Revan comes to a cross-roads and introspects, then having to reaffirm her/his DS path , or choosing to leave it, Carth would play a pivotal role. Differences in perspective make life more interesting, eh? I rather enjoy reading them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We're at the heart of our difference here, I think. The question is whether a fallen Revan can change his/her alignment again. I would say yes, but only if s/he ended up as LS in K1. This is assuming, of course, that you're playing a new character instead of Revan in K3, as both The Architect and I have suggested. In that case, I don't want a LS/DS choice for Revan, because Revan is not the character you're playing now - you already made the LS/DS choice back in K1 (and during the set-up of the game, where you chose his/her alignment). And since I'm playing a new character in K3, I don't get to choose Revan's alignment - I just get to choose whether I want to redeem LS Revan if I'm also LS or else to kill the fallen LS Revan because I don't want him to threaten my own rise to power, if I'm DS. I want to accept the choice that was made back in K1 (and confirmed at the beginning of the game), not change it yet again - if I wanted a redeemable Revan, then I should have set him/her to LS in the beginning.

 

There is a difference between: convincing a bunch of Jedi to join a war eventhough it went against the Council's wishes, being able to learn Mandalorian tactics and improve on them and then use said tactics and a massive Republic fleet against the Mandalorians in order to win the war, and: single-handedly taking on a large and dangerous empire whose origins mix Force sensitivity into the population base, are tactically minded enough to instigate the Mandalorian Wars in a different section of the galaxy all together while conveniently letting their prey slug it out and weaken themselves, and who, by all counts, are said to be a hell of alot tougher both as individuals and in the consolidating effect of their beliefs. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? IMO, based on what we've been told about them so far, no. There would have to be sound reasoning behind it if that were the case. But here again; vive la difference!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nah, the true Sith may be sneaky, but they constantly fight among themselves. For Revan it would take little more than convincing some lesser sith lords that they can become more powerful by siding with him against the ruling lords, and there you go. Sure, they would plan to betray Revan at the first chance and seize power for themselves, but then this is just the sort of strategic game that Revan is really good at. If you look at the Great Hyperspace War (as seen in Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire), you'll note that their empire fell not because they were weaker than the republic, but precisely because they fought so much among themselves that they gave the republic every chance to retaliate. If they could have just stood together, they could have run over the republic in short order without trouble, even when Sadow's initial invasion was repulsed, but he and Kressh could never overcome their differences in the pursuit of a common goal, since they were both hellbent on ruling the empire, and so it fell to pieces, as it always will for the dark siders. They are certainly powerful, but it scarcely matters when there is no sense of trust or loyalty.

 

I remember Kreia said Revan was fighting this war of belief but didn't Kreia also say, which Carth confirms, Revan went 'out there' to stop something terrible s/he had started? We assume that has something to do with the Sith wanting to come squish the Republic, but how could they have forgotten Korriban and Malachor V then? Again, my 'plot hole sense' is tingling. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Those are distant worlds of the old sith empire, and with it's decline, it's not surprising that some of the outlying worlds were "forgotten". Sure, Korriban may have been the homeworld of the Sith species, but they were never ranked high in the empire until they interbred with the dark jedi and some of their offspring began learning the force. After all, they did use Korriban just as a graveyard world. What they used Malachor for I'm not sure. Besides, they might also have abandoned those worlds simply because they were discovered by the republic. For the real core worlds of the old sith empire, you have to look at worlds like Ch'hodos, Rhelg, Khar Shian/Khar Delba, and particularly Thule and Ziost. We really need to see Ziost in K3 - it's only the throneworld of the ruling dark lord of the true sith...

 

I do not personally subscribe to the theory of Revan being a 'true' Sith, but imagine the irony of the Jedi Order training Revan twice.    The whole notion of someone having to be a certain way because of their genetic make-up is rather limiting storywise. Or perhaps i should say a well worn cliche.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

[Jediphile]

I'd also like to hear your story. So far there are 4, IIRC. Is anyone going to post theirs somewhere?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are far more than that. As for my own, I already posted it on these boards some time ago, though I sort of regretted it, since I'm now almost certain be disappointed by whathever K3 will turn out to be...

 

But if you want to see it, I suppose there is little point in keeping it secret, since you can easily find it be looking through old parts of the K3 suggestions topic. It's pretty long, though, but you can find the links to it all here.

 

Revan became corrupted and evil, and saw things, people, mostly as tools and a means to an end. That is why I believe Revan would not have told Malak. In Revan's mind, s/he has to do all this alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree to a point. Revan's mistake was the same Luke made in the Dark Empire comic books - he decided that he had to it all himself. But as Luke realises at the end of those books, the way of the jedi is not a solitary path, and that is precisely where Revan went wrong. The jedi find their strength in their unity, trust and loyalty. Revan abandoned all those.

 

But I don't agree that Revan knew anything about the true Sith when he entered the Mandalorian Wars. I think it was only at the Trayus Academy on Malachor V that Revan realised the danger they presented.

 

And to me that is precisely why he never told Malak about the true Sith, as he otherwise would have before they both fell to the dark side - as an LS'er he would have told his good friend, but as a dark lord, he kept all his secrets and plans for conquest to himself. At that point Malak was no longer a friend - he as an apprentice at best and a servant or soldier to carry out Revan's bidding when needed. Malak became just another pawn that could be sacrificed if the need ever arose, so he did not need to know what Revan was planning.

[Hekate]

First, i'd like to say it is great to have you reply to me again after all this time. :D

 

We're at the heart of our difference here, I think. The question is whether a fallen Revan can change his/her alignment again. I would say yes, but only if s/he ended up as LS in K1. This is assuming, of course, that you're playing a new character instead of Revan in K3, as both The Architect and I have suggested. In that case, I don't want a LS/DS choice for Revan, because Revan is not the character you're playing now - you already made the LS/DS choice back in K1 (and during the set-up of the game, where you chose his/her alignment). And since I'm playing a new character in K3, I don't get to choose Revan's alignment - I just get to choose whether I want to redeem LS Revan if I'm also LS or else to kill the fallen LS Revan because I don't want him to threaten my own rise to power, if I'm DS. I want to accept the choice that was made back in K1 (and confirmed at the beginning of the game), not change it yet again - if I wanted a redeemable Revan, then I should have set him/her to LS in the beginning.

I see what you're saying, and i understand the reluctance of allowing an alignment shift for Revan if the player character isn't Revan. But i think there is potential in the possibilities. I have a question though, and it may be a bit of a pokin' a stick at an angry bear type so bear with me (did i just pun all over myself? Forgive me... ) but if the new main character is the one who has to beat Revan, than doesn't that make the new character have to be even tougher than might be a prodigy Revan? Wouldn't that kinda be goin' a tad over the top? Unless, of course, they beat Revan in a sneaky way... i'll read your story next so we'll see...

 

 

Nah, the true Sith may be sneaky, but they constantly fight among themselves. For Revan it would take little more than convincing some lesser sith lords that they can become more powerful by siding with him against the ruling lords, and there you go. Sure, they would plan to betray Revan at the first chance and seize power for themselves, but then this is just the sort of strategic game that Revan is really good at. If you look at the Great Hyperspace War (as seen in Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire), you'll note that their empire fell not because they were weaker than the republic, but precisely because they fought so much among themselves that they gave the republic every chance to retaliate. If they could have just stood together, they could have run over the republic in short order without trouble, even when Sadow's initial invasion was repulsed, but he and Kressh could never overcome their differences in the pursuit of a common goal, since they were both hellbent on ruling the empire, and so it fell to pieces, as it always will for the dark siders. They are certainly powerful, but it scarcely matters when there is no sense of trust or loyalty.

I think you are really Revan in disguise, converting people one thread at a time! Luckily this site doesn't support a MSG link-up If they are still like that a thousand years hence, than yeah, i completely concur Revan could insitgate much mischief and a civil war while s/he is at it. I stand corrected. But i still think doin' it alone is a tad unrealistic... That's alot of stuff for one person to do without any sort of support.

 

There are far more than that. As for my own, I already posted it on these boards some time ago, though I sort of regretted it, since I'm now almost certain be disappointed by whathever K3 will turn out to be...

 

But if you want to see it, I suppose there is little point in keeping it secret, since you can easily find it be looking through old parts of the K3 suggestions topic. It's pretty long, though, but you can find the links to it all here.

 

"easily" Jediphile says oh, that's a good one

 

Revan became corrupted and evil, and saw things, people, mostly as tools and a means to an end. That is why I believe Revan would not have told Malak. In Revan's mind, s/he has to do all this alone.

I agree to a point. Revan's mistake was the same Luke made in the Dark Empire comic books - he decided that he had to it all himself. But as Luke realises at the end of those books, the way of the jedi is not a solitary path, and that is precisely where Revan went wrong. The jedi find their strength in their unity, trust and loyalty. Revan abandoned all those.

This is one of the things that vexes me about KotOR II so much. Revan, regardless of alignment and all that, runs off to either fight the Sith, or to undo whantever it is s/he did, or both. It's like s/he has suddenly lost her/his mind (heh heh. That is kinda what happened, ain't it?). S/he would have to have known it isn't possible to do it alone. So what was Revan thinking? That does open alot of possibilities, of what Revan would have to do out there alone, but i just know it'll be something annoying and anti-climactic Just as the true Sith are now that i've read the link info you posted. i was kinda picturing something more.. grand, more... mystical perhaps. Meh. Guess i should know better than to base my ideas on the content of 2 games. But the possibility of that shines with going back to KotOR when Carth describes the DS to Revan... That allows for possibilities.

 

But I don't agree that Revan knew anything about the true Sith when he entered the Mandalorian Wars. I think it was only at the Trayus Academy on Malachor V that Revan realised the danger they presented.

 

And to me that is precisely why he never told Malak about the true Sith, as he otherwise would have before they both fell to the dark side - as an LS'er he would have told his good friend, but as a dark lord, he kept all his secrets and plans for conquest to himself. At that point Malak was no longer a friend - he as an apprentice at best and a servant or soldier to carry out Revan's bidding when needed. Malak became just another pawn that could be sacrificed if the need ever arose, so he did not need to know what Revan was planning.

I guess our opinions differ because we see Revan differently. I see her/him startin' off with the Jedi training as a bit detatched from others. One of the gang, but a little apart from it too. Somehow, Malak came to love Revan (friend type) and became Revan's companinon, but they were never equals. I think as a lightsider especially, Revan would not have told Malak. I see it as Revan wanting to protect him, even knowing in the long run it would prove to be futile. It think Revan's fall was gradual and paved with mostly good, if narcissistic intentions I see a slow insulation from others, a slow degrading and corruption as Revan lost her/his soul. i just can't see Revan as a brutish DSer who is into the usual random violence and such. Revan may not have actually felt much for people anymore, but i think the psychological imprint of wanting to protect remained. IMHO, Revan would have been DS by the time Malachor V came about, and had a set strategy in mind of converting Jedi and all that. In order for that to have happened if my slow fall theory is true, than Revan would have had to know about the true Sith threat long before. Which is plausible since Kreia and even the Masters in the first said s/he had been researching and studying for a long time.

 

A request: could someone help clear up the games' timelines. They seem to be a bit contradictory in places. From things i've read, KotOR began 1 year after they caught Revan. Revan & Malak were on Kashyyyk 5 years before that. Telos was bombed 4 years before. Things get fuzzy from there... TIA

[The Yeti of 66]

I remember HK telling you of how Revan and Malak were still friends after the fall began. After they had embraced the Darkside Revan still laughed as HK annoying the crap out of Malak. Then I think he said soon after they both just became different people.

 

IMO Revan and the Exile should both go dark. Revan has no face, all you ever see of Revan is the mask. That should be how it happens, and at some point you have to fight Revan. I would hate to see Revan go, but having Revan go on just wouldn't work for me. And as far as the Exile goes, that great power that holds the death of the force is likely to be tapped. That's the type I see the Exile as. One that only somebody like him/her can defeat, somebody that does not use the force. Of course the Exile would probably be working to destroy the True Sith, but a true Jedi would see the conflictions and have to remove the Exile.

 

So obviously in my idea there should be a new character. However I thought the beginnings have been quite bland so far. Sure the Exile's was an improvement, but still not good enough. I want to see something different. Your character should be with a group of discreet Jedi hunters. SOMETHING interesting.

[Jediphile]

First, i'd like to say it is great to have you reply to me again after all this time.  :D

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if the new main character is the one who has to beat Revan, than doesn't that make the new character have to be even tougher than might be a prodigy Revan?

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No, because while Revan will be alone in that fight, the new character will not, and even Revan can be overmatched when faced with at least three jedi knights, especially if Bastila is present to use their connection against Revan.

 

I think you are really Revan in disguise, converting people one thread at a time!

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Gee, I wish...

 

  "easily" Jediphile says  oh, that's a good one

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My bad

 

This is one of the things that vexes me about KotOR II so much. Revan, regardless of alignment and all that, runs off to either fight the Sith, or to undo whantever it is s/he did, or both. It's like s/he has suddenly lost her/his mind (heh heh. That is kinda what happened, ain't it?). S/he would have to have known it isn't possible to do it alone. So what was Revan thinking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Revan did not so much lose his mind (after K1, I mean) as he did his heart. The DS Revan just couldn't trust anyone not to betray him, and LS Revan couldn't bear to lead yet more friends into ruin. Over the course of K1's events, Revan had to face all the evil he had done before. That either destroyed the last bit of humanity and trust in others left in him (DS) or else wore so heavily on his conscience that it destroyed the last bit of resolve he had left in him (LS). Either way, he was not going to trust/risk others in his quest again, not unless they were sith whom he could use and sacrifice in the firm knowledge that they would just the same themselves.

 

A request: could someone help clear up the games' timelines. They seem to be a bit contradictory in places. From things i've read, KotOR began 1 year after they caught Revan. Revan & Malak were on Kashyyyk 5 years before that. Telos was bombed 4 years before. Things get fuzzy from there... TIA

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, from Wookieepedia's "timeline" (always recommended):

 

* 3,996 BBY

o The Great Sith War. Fallen Jedi Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun lead a war against the Republic, but are defeated by the Republic and light side Jedi.

 

* 3,976 BBY

o The Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders begin to conquer worlds in the Outer Rim. The Jedi Council forbids involvement by the Jedi until the problem has been assessed.

 

* 3,963 BBY

o The Mandalorian Wars begin. The Jedi Revan and Malak defy the Jedi Council and lead the Republic forces against the invaders.

 

* 3,960 BBY

o The Mandalorian Wars end. A Jedi serving Revan as general, later called the Exile, willfully severs all ties to the Force to end the pain caused by the thousands of deaths at the Battle of Malachor V. Revan and Malak disappear. The Exile is called to Coruscant to answer for defying the Jedi Council, and is banished upon the Council learning of the general's willful abandonment of the Force.

 

* 3,959 BBY

o Revan and Malak, who have been seduced by the Dark Side, declare war on the Republic. Only the Battle Meditation of Bastila Shan staves off certain defeat.

 

* 3,956 BBY

o The Jedi Civil War concludes with the redemption of Revan, the death of Malak, and the destruction of the Star Forge.

 

* 3,955 BBY

o Revan disappears into the Unknown Regions to destroy the ancient Sith Empire.

 

* 3,951 BBY

o The Exile is discovered aboard the Ebon Hawk, Revan's ship, by Darth Traya, a Sith Lord trying to kill the Force by manipulating the life-threatening echoes caused by the Exile's willing abandonment of it. The Exile reestablishes connection to the Force, then kills Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, and Darth Sion, who have spent the last five years murdering Jedi. End of the Old Sith Wars.

 

* c. 3,950 BBY

o The Exile departs to the Unknown Regions to find Revan, and the Jedi Order is rebuilt by the surviving Jedi.

[Hekate]

No, because while Revan will be alone in that fight, the new character will not, and even Revan can be overmatched when faced with at least three jedi knights, especially if Bastila is present to use their connection against Revan.

I'm so used to the player character annoyingly having to be the be-all-and-end-all i didn't even consider that. Silly me.

 

I think Revan did not so much lose his mind (after K1, I mean) as he did his heart. The DS Revan just couldn't trust anyone not to betray him, and LS Revan couldn't bear to lead yet more friends into ruin. Over the course of K1's events, Revan had to face all the evil he had done before. That either destroyed the last bit of humanity and trust in others left in him (DS) or else wore so heavily on his conscience that it destroyed the last bit of resolve he had left in him (LS). Either way, he was not going to trust/risk others in his quest again, not unless they were sith whom he could use and sacrifice in the firm knowledge that they would just the same themselves.

I understand the reasoning behind both explanations, but the logic doesn't add up. Everyone needs someone to cover their back in dangerous situations, no matter how tough/etc.. that person is. Revan was supposed to have learned s/he isn't invulnerable nor able to control everyting. Going alone indicates Revan learned nothing and is not only doing the same thing all over again, but without even one mimion/friend/etc.. this time around. So Revan became more delusional. That kinda could add more tragedy to Revan's story, but i want to have had Revan learn things about friendship, having a bit of faith in others, and such stuff. Even if a DSer, how to use those & such. And i can't really see why he wouldn't trust Bastila. He has the bond as a pre-emptive warning system should she want to betray him and his presence dominates hers in their bond. Her/his running off alone is one reason i would prefer if Revan was't causing mayhem among the Sith and was fighting some mystical and/or quasi-psychological personal battle instead. Alas, that wouldn't exactly be easy to put into a game context. Still, i'd like there to be a really good reason behind Revan cutting her/himself off from everyone, especially if s/he is keeping tabs on the Sith threat.

 

Thanks for the list

Edited April 27, 2006 by Hekate

[Guest The Architect]

We're at the heart of our difference here, I think. The question is whether a fallen Revan can change his/her alignment again. I would say yes, but only if s/he ended up as LS in K1. This is assuming, of course, that you're playing a new character instead of Revan in K3, as both The Architect and I have suggested. In that case, I don't want a LS/DS choice for Revan, because Revan is not the character you're playing now - you already made the LS/DS choice back in K1 (and during the set-up of the game, where you chose his/her alignment). And since I'm playing a new character in K3, I don't get to choose Revan's alignment - I just get to choose whether I want to redeem LS Revan if I'm also LS or else to kill the fallen LS Revan because I don't want him to threaten my own rise to power, if I'm DS. I want to accept the choice that was made back in K1 (and confirmed at the beginning of the game), not change it yet again - if I wanted a redeemable Revan, then I should have set him/her to LS in the beginning.

 

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Once again Jediphile, I agree with you. it's becoming a rather common habit. Revan is not your character anymore and he/she made his/her choice long ago in the Rakata Temple and I think if you set Revan as DS making him/her 'unredeemable' then deal with it. If you want to be able to 'redeem' Revan, then set Revan as LS. I think your favouring LS'ders if you make Revan redeemable on both counts because MANY people would try and redeem Revan, and for me it just doesn't add up redeeming a Revan who went DS in K1 because Bastila is a Sith, and well for males, they love each other and the one person who could redeem the male Revan's, even a female Revan actually because 'friends' can influence you too is Bastila, but setting Revan as DS makes Bastila a Sith and uh, she wouldn't be trying to redeem Revan would she? In fact, a little spoiler in my plot in development, DS Bastila will help Revan win the Sith Civil War amongst the True Sith Empire and become the 'Dark Lord of the True Sith', a little something called Battle Meditation would help Revan's cause wouldn't it?

Edited April 27, 2006 by The Architect

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I sure hope revan didnt lose his mind... that would be weird an a little lame... for me anyways.