Complaint: grey characters not grey enough.

[Sturm]

very, you make peoples eyes sore, for shame...

[Jediphile]

Uh, I remember this one! I just looove the self-reflection part. Where was this? On Peragus? Kreia.dlg?

I'll play the devil's advocate and claim that by "means" she meant T3, which was legally in her care. See, no lies. 

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Yes, it's Peragus, but I don't agree that T3 was ever in her "care". He was on the Ebon Hawk and flew it back to the Republic - Kreia was not. T3 came looking for the Exile in an attempt to have him help save the republic as per Bastila's orders (see the hologram for male Revan). Kreia never had any control over T3 as far as I can tell.

 

Now, I am truly surprised because it feels we agree on how much Kreia manipulated with people around her.

Granted you understand her as a liar whereas I think she only uses the truth to her own end (!= gain). Consequently you think she is selfish, evil; I think she's hopeful and daring.

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Well, I do admire Kreia for her defiance, but while I do so, that does not excuse the actions she takes in her struggle against the force itself. Defying the will of the force? Fine. Sacrificing other people to reach that goal? Unacceptable.

 

I may also like Milton's 'satanic hero' in "Paradise Lost" for his daring attempts at defiance, but that does not mean I think he's a nice person. Prometheus would be a much better example, since he defies the gods for the sake of humanity

 

But Kreia's motives are not nearly as benevolent. She may hate the force for good reasons, but she still thinks of like dirt and sees them only as a means to be used so that she can achieve her own goals. That's not so cool. Kreia is a great character, but that doesn't mean I like her as a person.

 

Of course human creation cannot be perfect.

I don't believe that the jedi believe the code is the only possible way, but that they don't dare to walk those other ways. After all they *may* lead to the dark side. And that is enough.

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The only problem I have with that is that it infers that the jedi simply embrace the code out of fear of the dark side. That may be true in some or even many cases, but I definitely don't think it's true for all.

 

As for Atris, I'm quite sure doubt and fear overcame her during and after the Mandalorian Wars and she was aware of that. So she desperately turns for help to those holocrons. She has no will to choose. The Exile can hint at this to her which knocks her out totally:

 

E: [Awareness] Your anger... is it because you secretly wish you'd had the strength to follow me to war?

A: {Surprised}What? What do you mean?"

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Agreed, but my point is also that the code is hollow if that is all you have to cling to as Atris did. And as Obi-Wan would say, only a Sith deals in absolutes. That prhase certainly spelled doom for Atris.

 

Also, I accept how you define the grey jedi above. It is something I relate to in life.

Still, from the perspective of the Force there can only be Jedi or Sith. People do good or they do evil.

So if you're saying that the grey Jedi are only outcasts from the order then you take Jedi's point of view which is legitimate. See, I have always had the bigger picture in mind.

Which leads me to a question: shouldn't there be a gray Sith, then?

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Isn't that what dark jedi are all about? A problem here is that the all tend to fall to the dark side and become Sith, so we don't really have any good examples, though Asajj Ventress might be one of the best. Someone suggested a cool character for K3 who was a dark jedi who hated the Sith and wanted to kill them. I could see a character like that working beautifully (at least until he too embraced the dark side so much that he becomes a Sith as well).

 

But yes, I'd agree that Star Wars generally have a rigid perspective of only jedi and sith (representing good and evil). But the jedi order and the Sith are still the extremes, while the gray and dark jedi represent those who are closer to the middle. They must still choose side, though.

 

Aahhh, but to break free of course! Even she

[ghosta]

Jolee was a nuetral because he did not imbrace ethier allinment

 

Krea is nuetral because she turned away from both allinments for thier falliers.

 

I like Jollee because of his storys and his humores behaivor

[Sturm]

this topic should have been closed long ago, or atleast trimmed

[Zelean]

Don't worry about it, because I sure won't. Nobody is forcing people to read our posts, and at this point they've probably caught on to how long and verbose we can be - or is it just me? - and learned to steer clear if they don't care. At least we're still discussing the issue instead of letting it turn to whether we want hilted lightsabers and hooded robes in K3

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It amazes me that people want to discuss that kind of stuff all the time! But, hey!, I let them have their fun and look out for people I feel healthy to discuss other kind of stuff with.

 

There are obviously some who mind how and what others (namely the two of us) think and post. That's the reason I apologized

[Jediphile]

The longer we discuss the aspect of killing the force (which you cleverly evade) the more I feel you care about the force.

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If I avoid it it's probably most because I cannot discuss the force itself, since I have no idea what it is. So it's not that I like it as such, but probably more because there are some characters that care about whom I do like.

 

Let's speculate what would happen if Kreia succeeded, then.

 

It just doesn't feel right to say 'oh, the non-sensitive would hardly miss it', if it is all-present, no? Consider the death of the force as a veil lifted off your eyes, if you will. What you see may be very different it may not; it may look better but it may also be bad.

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To quote Shakespeare:

 

"... And makes us bear rather those ills we have

Than fly to others that we know not off?

Thus conscience does make cowards of us all..."

 

(Hamlet, Act III, Scene I)

 

Or put simply: We know what we have, but we don't know what we'll get.

 

Some like Visas would cease to see (ti. die), but such is the nature of any revolution. But those that survive would be free (of the force)!

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Free of what? I may not know what the force is, but I don't get the impression that it is somehow oppressive to people, so that doesn't make much sense to me. And I don't like the idea of just casually accepting that some will die in "can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs"-kind of philosophy. That's just cruel.

 

How dared Highlander destroy that atmospheric dome and take the risk of others onto himself?! On the other hand, did Neo know what he was doing when he drank that pill? Was to quit Matrix really his choice?

It's hardly anything we do to-day that is of our choice alone, wouldn't you agree? Ethics

[Sturm]

no wonder this is a 2 man thread

[DeathScepter]

in such cruelty, we gain much strength. In that strength, we can work wonders.

 

 

Wonder Luke redeemed Vader if he didn't know that Vader was his father.

 

 

Luke would have done his best to kill Vader if He didn't know that Vader was his father.

 

Without the knowledge of their blood relationship, both of them would try to kill each other.

 

 

Truth is important , cruel or not.

[Jediphile]

in such cruelty, we gain much strength. In that strength, we can work wonders.

 

Wonder Luke redeemed Vader if he didn't know that Vader was his father.

 

Luke would have done his best to kill Vader if He didn't know that  Vader was his father.

 

Without the knowledge of their blood relationship, both of them would try to kill each other.

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I agree that is probably what would have happened, yes. Still, that doesn't change the fact that it made an already difficult task much harder for Luke. The truth was ugly and not very kind.

 

Truth is important , cruel or not.

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Of course. I never said otherwise. I just said people delude themselves, if they think the truth is always desirable. But I'd want the truth too - the alternative is not reliable.

[Zelean]

no wonder this is a 2 man thread

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Not really. I know -you- are also present.

 

It wouldn't hurt, if you actually brought something fresh to the discussion. Giving your own thoughts on whether you consider Kreia's quest to kill the force evil or not (grey, if you like), and why you believe that way.

 

Jediphile and I are discussing the nature of the truth itself since we take different perspectives and I think it's crucial to how we perceive Kreia' behavior.

[Sturm]

im not even bothering to read these pages and pages of junk

[Zelean]

If I avoid it it's probably most because I cannot discuss the force itself, since I have no idea what it is. So it's not that I like it as such, but probably more because there are some characters that care about whom I do like.

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So there is some truth in what I said.

 

 

Free of what? I may not know what the force is, but I don't get the impression that it is somehow oppressive to people, so that doesn't make much sense to me. And I don't like the idea of just casually accepting that some will die in "can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs"-kind of philosophy. That's just cruel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said, the best kind of manipulation is the one that is not detected. Only when rid of its presence you would know its oppression. Obviously I consider death as a part of life and you don't. But don't the Jedi say that they are not afraid of dying? Them (and Sith) probably being the only victims

[Xard]

This is SW.

 

Things happens in good-bad axis. There isn't grey side. Jolee was light sider. He simply wasn't part of jedi order. All his act's were good. He did no evil.

 

So he was light side.

 

Kreia was DS, because she didn't care anything about other. She just wanted to destroy force. Nasty thing

Edited April 8, 2006 by Xard

[Sturm]

They just didnt intent revealing their true identity, YET

 

xard explains this all well, case closed

[Jediphile]

As I said, the best kind of manipulation is the one that is not detected. Only when rid of its presence you would know its oppression.

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That's a circular argument. You cannot imply that it is oppressive just because the manipulation cannot be detected and then use that as an argument for destroying so you can be "free". That's like saying that I don't feel God's presence, so that's just because he's manipulative, and now I must destroy him, so I can be free. That's bad logic. It also sounds like paranoia to me.

 

Obviously I consider death as a part of life and you don't. But don't the Jedi say that they are not afraid of dying? Them (and Sith) probably being the only victims

[Jediphile]

They just didnt intent revealing their true identity, YET

 

xard explains this all well, case closed

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That's a bit blunt, but I do agree essentially, yes.

[Sturm]

ive already ellaborated a bit, but i dont intent getting it into a lot of detail

[influece Lost] This is a conversation for another time..

[Zelean]

He [Jolee] did no evil.

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Excuse me?

 

[Zelean]

As I said, the best kind of manipulation is the one that is not detected. Only when rid of its presence you would know its oppression.

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That's a circular argument. You cannot imply that it is oppressive just because the manipulation cannot be detected and then use that as an argument for destroying so you can be "free". That's like saying that I don't feel God's presence, so that's just because he's manipulative, and now I must destroy him, so I can be free. That's bad logic. It also sounds like paranoia to me.

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You must have misunderstood me. It is *because* it is undetected that people don't doubt it and are less if not entirely unwilling to give it up. It is just a reasoning of mine why you might refuse to kill the force. I am not trying to establish such practise.

Have you seen Mononoke-hime? It basically deals with the same stuff.

 

 

There is a difference between natural death and willful death.

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Give me an example of 'willful' death (as opposed to natural death), please.

 

I'd have to believe in Zeus and the rest of the greek mythology for that to be the case, and I don't. So it's a moot point.

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Huh?!

[Xard]

He [Jolee] did no evil.

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Excuse me?

 

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Oh, I mean he didn't do anything evil

[Jediphile]

You must have misunderstood me. It is *because* it is undetected that people don't doubt it and are less if not entirely unwilling to give it up. It is just a reasoning of mine why you might refuse to kill the force. I am not trying to establish such practise.

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The force seems harmless to me, since most people in Star Wars seem oblivious to it or even doubtful of its existence. Han Solo sure did - "I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's some big, powerful force controlling everything. There is no mystical energy-field controlling my destiny! It's all just a load of simply tricks and nonsense!"

 

So where's the harm?

 

Have you seen Mononoke-hime? It basically deals with the same stuff.

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No, I haven't.

 

Give me an example of 'willful' death (as opposed to natural death), please.

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I should have said 'unnatural' death, as in killing someone on purpose. Sorry.

 

 

Huh?!

[Zelean]

The force seems harmless to me, since most people in Star Wars seem oblivious to it or even doubtful of its existence. Han Solo sure did - "I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's some big, powerful force controlling everything. There is no mystical energy-field controlling my destiny! It's all just a load of simply tricks and nonsense!"  

 

So where's the harm?

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Oh yeah! Ignorance -is- bliss.

 

 

I should have said 'unnatural' death, as in killing someone on purpose. Sorry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For a moment there I thought you might mention supernatural deaths.

 

Still, I am not any happier. Unnatural, how? Bleeding to death, dying in a car crash, of cancer, pneumonia, absence of the force, of old age, by a purpose hungry lion,

[Xard]

Force isn't manipulator or anything like that. Geez, it looks like that k2 mixed up the force thing even worster than midichlorians.

 

Force is energy field etc. It isn't "God" or anything like that, so it cant manipulate. Force is just.... Force.

 

Of course I can say that Great Bambu-Boojoo is manipulating our "reality", but who would believe me? I dont have any proof. And same is with "manipulating force" thing. No proof about that, so there is no need to think it to be true thing. Kreia isn't all-knowing.

[Sturm]

He [Jolee] did no evil.

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Excuse me?

 

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Oh, I mean he didn't do anything evil

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lol

[Zelean]

Force is energy field etc. It isn't "God" or anything like that, so it cant manipulate. Force is just.... Force.

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This is the part I argue, of course. If it is just a force, why only some "chosen" can sense it and manipulate it? To me it would make more sense if it were the other way around.

(btw. The Christian god is usually referred to as "God".)

 

 

Of course I can say that Great Bambu-Boojoo is manipulating our "reality", but who would believe me? I dont have any proof. And same is with "manipulating force" thing. No proof about that, so there is no need to think it to be true thing. Kreia isn't all-knowing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No proof. The big question: dare you believe in god/God since you have no proof?

 

However human progress is full of insane assumptions, you know. No wonder true revolutionaries are first burned on stakes then proclaimed as martyrs.

Kreia may not be all-knowing, but she sure feels wise to me.