Ginthaeriel Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 (edited) http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060222/sirlin_01.shtml This article is getting so controversial that Blizzard is even shutting down threads about it in their forum. I'm no stranger to WoW. I've played it up to level 50, and although I never experienced the insane Raid Content which Sirlin describes, I can definitely imagine as I can remember waiting hours on end LFG in Final Fantasy XI *shudder*. WoW was much better than FFXI in comparison, but it was the boring trudge of the grind that got to me. The small instances were fun at first, but after running it a million times for the loot, it lost its charm. The problem I find with this article is that although it highlights many good points, the delivery is extremely biased and poor. The rhetoric is good, and having read Sirlin's previous articles I believe he does have a knack for persuasion and a flair for the dramatic, but it's clear that in this article he is only arguing for his personal tastes as a competitive solo player of fighting games. WoW already has a strong solo AND group game from level 1 to 60, and yes, WoW *is* exclusively group>solo based past level 60, but I think that there should be gameplay for people who enjoy social interaction. As for his moral arguments, that WoW corrupts the mentalities of our youth... well I think that's where his bias really reveals itself. In real life people do indeed reward ability infinitely more than effort. But that is not to say effort yields no results, and I think that the cooperation that WoW espouses is also a positive thing. (The unfortunate thing is, WoW eats up so much of the player's time that they rarely have any time left to apply these lessons to real life!) And that's where I think the insight of this article lies, and where the deeper problem in WoW lies. I think that this article definitely does say some things about the addictive qualities of MMORPGs and how those should be addressed. I have some friends who totally disregard their professional and academic lives just to play WoW. It really does take ten hours of playing per day to get to the higher honor ranks in PvP. That's really scary. But I think that WoW is an extremely good game from levels 1 to 60 (even Sirlin says so in the article). Comments? Edited March 3, 2006 by Ginthaeriel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 People under the age of 18 shouldnt be playing them. If your 18 and still a screwup. Well too bad. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginthaeriel Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 People under the age of 18 shouldnt be playing them. If your 18 and still a screwup. Well too bad. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think China is actually implementing new laws against MMORPGs much like that. I believe the new law is akin to something like... it is legally required that all MMORPGs shut down after six hours of play, and you cannot play MMORPGs unless you are a certain age. Which I think is not a bad thing at all. Playing a computer game for more than six hours a day is quite frankly a big problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrielle Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 I thought China doesn't allow games much less ones played on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 China is probably the only country taking game addiction seriously. There have been some well documented cases involving WoW. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Which I think is not a bad thing at all. Playing a computer game for more than six hours a day is quite frankly a big problem <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do that quite often,but equally go days or weeks without playing. The difference with an MMPORG is you have to do it on a regular basis, so it's like a second job more than a game. The top tier of any MMPORG requires a level of commitment that is somewhat scary. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Games are a huge problem in China. I agree with the article in many respects, but I don't think there is a set way you have to play any MMORPG. I haven't reached level 60 after 18 months of playing because I spend more time looking for cool locations and trying to get the most bizarre looking outfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Games Authorities are a huge problem in China. I agree with the article in many respects, but I don't think there is a set way you have to play any MMORPG. I haven't reached level 60 after 18 months of playing because I spend more time looking for cool locations and trying to get the most bizarre looking outfit. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would prefer to live in a society where I can spend as much time as I choose doing whatever it is that i choose to do, so long as it doesn't impinge on anyone else's rights to do the same. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Depends who ends up picking up the tab. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveThaiBinh Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Well, he makes a few interesting points, and I'm glad that he's thinking about what ideas and behaviours are reinforced by games, but I don't think he's going very deep. Winning is very often not a pure meritocracy, for example. It's interesting that he's so concerned that games should reinforce individualism and meritocracy, concepts that are valued, almost fetishized, by the Anglo-Saxon West. Other cultures value them too, but not to the exclusion of all else, and I think it's good that WoW apparently reflects this. Not that I've ever played it or ever will - it's one of these expensive on-line thingies, I believe. "An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 1. Investing a lot of time in something is worth more than actual skill. If you invest more time than someone else, you "deserve" rewards. People who invest less time "do not deserve" rewards. This is an absurd lesson that has no connection to anything I do in the real world. The user interface artist we have at work can create 10 times more value than an artist of average skill, even if the lesser artist works way, way more hours. The same is true of our star programmer. The very idea that time > skill is alien. His conclusion is fallacious: petitio principii (i.e. he is assuming the conclusion in the premise). Just "spending time" does not grant benefits to a PC. Merely existing in the WoW game world does not grant any accumulative bonus to a character. The character has to complete tasks: crafting (using their expertise to product something) or questing (using their skills, experience and equipment to complete a goal). 3. Group > Solo. You can forget self-reliance, because you won't get far in World of Warcraft without a big guild. ... Nothing wrong with the underlying premise. as a general rule, the rewards in life ARE greater for bigger groups. The only part missing is the political fighting that takes place IN the group. 4. Group > Solo. I'm not done with this yet. As an introvert, I'm pretty outraged that this game is marginalizing my entire personality type. ... playing by yourself in MMO is perfectly valid thing to do ... You can group with people when you like, or not if you don't feel like it. It's an experience wholly different than a single-player game, and no serious person could think otherwise. The best way to put it is that it captures the concept of "being alone together" with other people. ...Warcraft OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 Foot Invisible Rabbit Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 There is a reason why I pronounce MMORPG as "morgue." The "p" is silent. Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 I enjoyed that piece. "Street Fighter taught me about yomi: knowing the mind of the opponent." Word. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 As for his moral arguments, that WoW corrupts the mentalities of our youth...<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 Foot Invisible Rabbit Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Just for the record... Anything fun nowadays corrupts the minds of our youths otherwise they wouldn't be fun. Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Don't be silly. Street Fighter did lots of good. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Guns aren't evil and don't kill people. People are evil and kill people. Ditto for games inn general and Street Fighter in particular. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 ..If you invest more time than someone else, you "deserve" rewards. People who invest less time "do not deserve" rewards... ..You can forget self-reliance, because you won't get far in World of Warcraft without a big guild. By design, playing alone (even if you are the best player in the world) will get you worse loot than if you always play in 5-man dungeons. If you always play in 5-man dungeons, you'll always get worse loot than if you play in 40-man raids... So a game whose makers make more money the more people play and the longer they play it, is encouraging players to invest a lot of time in the game AND to get your friends to play it too? Hmm... DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 My guild works with many other guilds to throw events. Sometimes they are raids, but more often they are beach parties and crafting faires. I do agree that many MMORPG's do not encourage creativity. There tends to be one "right" way to do things. Crafting has specific recipes, there is always one object that is better than the other, and most dungeons require you to kill something for a reward. It would be wonderful to see that switched up a bit. It would be as simple as randomizing crafting a bit and offering alternative ways around a dungeon. This is what makes many single player games unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 One of the key reasons they like groups is because it keeps people around. Even if your bored of the game you stick around because your friends are there. If you solo, then you get bored and you quit since there is nothing beyond the game system to keep you playing. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 I think someone needs to cry me a river. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 One of the key reasons they like groups is because it keeps people around. Even if your bored of the game you stick around because your friends are there. If you solo, then you get bored and you quit since there is nothing beyond the game system to keep you playing. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Definitely agree with that. I've stuck with a few game simply because I have friends online. Most MMORPG are pretty shallow from a soloing point of view. Some games have tried to get around this by giving you henchmen or pets, but it rarely competes with a good single player game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Guns aren't evil and don't kill people. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I had a mate that had a shotgun accidently go off in his face when he was putting it away. Needless to say he died. Guns do kill people. There are none that are right, only strong of opinion. There are none that are wrong, only ignorant of facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Suite Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 (edited) I'm sorry, but i don't think i ever learned anything from games. All the stuff that you learn in games is relative to the game and nothing else, and has no value in real life. Even assuming WoW teaches the 'wrong' things the amount of useful knowledge you get from games is so marginal that it doesn't matter. Games = waste of time... Edited March 3, 2006 by Lyric Suite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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