KotoR 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[mr insomniac]

Had to go to work, so I couldn't really reply earlier. Agreed that Obsidian did a good job, but Revan is still the whole reason for the Exile being what she is. Revan and Malak went awol from the Jedi Council to fight the Mandalorians, and the Exile was one who followed them, and what happened to her, happened because of that.

 

Then as the game builds toward the end, its not hard to guess is still going to be a key figure in the future, assuming of course that in K3 (also assuming the game will be made at all), the protagonist's eventual destination is an encounter with the True Sith... and why wouldn't it be? Kreia outright stated that the Sith we had been battling were as nothing compared to the True Sith. Now, I dunno about anyone else, but I'm kinda curious to meet these guys and find out the difference for myself.

 

Also, when you think of how the plot has progressed from I to II, I have to ask what else is left?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The events of the Mandolorian war are more than Revan. KOTOR is really all about Bastila, the whole game revolves around her.

 

KOTOR II is about coming to terms with your past. Something that isnt going to be an issue if you don't have one (in the sense that your not a pregnerated character).

 

There is a huge ammount of cleaning up to do in the Galaxy and thats where a less "godly" character can make a difference. Not running off to Sith space to fight some even more "godly" Sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the plot progression between I and II, Obsidian's writers chose to tie the Exile to Revan, in that Revan is the reason behind the Exile's being in the Mandalorian Wars at all. They could have come up with something else to explain the Exile being the wound in the Force that she is, but why should they? It was cool the way they did it. It gave them lots of K1 elements to use, eg: The Ebon Hawk, Carth, HK-47, T3-43's whole thing with knowing where the Ebon Hawk has been during the time between K1 and2... which is another point. Since Obsidian never got to actually finish the game, we'll never know where the Ebon Hawk was, or maybe we weren't meant to know until K3.

 

Whoever writes K3 should finish the story. K3's gotta have the protagonist be a Jedi, and have lightsabers and Force Powers and all that stuff, right? Why ignore all that potential plot material? Tie the new protagonist to the first two games somehow, and encounter Revan and the Exile at the end when all the truths are revealed.

 

Oh, K1 is about Bastila in the same way Episodes 4-6 are about Luke

[alanschu]

Yes they are.  I have yet played a game in which I had a godlike character where I had fun playing it.  Where is the fun if you character sneezes and 20 enemies die?  There is no strategy, no risk of death, nothing.  Each and every fight needs to be a life or death situation.

 

Combat and killing should never be taken lightly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Must.....resist.....

[Grand Lord Revan]

The events of the Mandolorian war are more than Revan. KOTOR is really all about Bastila, the whole game revolves around her.

 

 

KOTOR isn't all about Bastila at all. It's the story of Revan, the most powerful jedi of his/her time. Bastila was bound to Revan. S/He was more stronger than her by far. I think you're wrong here completely.

 

Therefore, the story as to be concluded with the fate of Revan who will kill the True Sith with the exile who is also connected with him/her and maybe a third person - the new PC, who will also be connected with him/her. Thus, the new main PC has to be strong in the force and have a special task to carry out that is necessary to carry out the ultimate task - namely to prevent the True Sith's regime.

 

The guys who want to play as a normal soldier etc. and to kill a dozen of Siths or Jedi should refer to Battlefront . KOTOR is about the Jedi and the story of Revan. :cool:

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

 

KOTOR isn't all about Bastila at all. It's the story of Revan, the most powerful jedi of his/her time. Bastila was bound to Revan. S/He was more stronger than her by far. I think you're wrong here completely.

 

Therefore, the story as to be concluded with the fate of Revan who will kill the True Sith with the exile who is also connected with him/her and maybe a third person - the new PC, who will also be connected with him/her. Thus, the new main PC has to be strong in the force and have a special task to carry out that is necessary to carry out the ultimate task - namely to prevent the True Sith's regime.

 

The guys who want to play as a normal soldier etc. and to kill a dozen of Siths or Jedi should refer to Battlefront  . KOTOR is about the Jedi and the story of Revan.  :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Without Bastila KOTOR dosnt have a plot. Everything, even the battle meditation and Malaks reasons for wanting her. It's all focused on her.

They may need your memories to find the Star Forge , but if you take away the Bioware cheese , then Juhari, or Jolee could have killed Malak just as easily as you did.

 

So basically you seem to have fallen for the Revan hype rather than the reality.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Whoever writes K3 should finish the story. K3's gotta have the protagonist be a Jedi, and have lightsabers and Force Powers and all that stuff, right? Why ignore all that potential plot material? Tie the new protagonist to the first two games somehow, and encounter Revan and the Exile at the end when all the truths are revealed.

 

Oh, K1 is about Bastila in the same way Episodes 4-6 are about Luke 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you want another uber jedi , then sure.

 

If you don't , then you have to ignore the first two games to an extent.

 

Really ? Think about KOTOR and the key points and most are only possible because of her and her abilities.

[Jediphile]

Why is an existing story a problem to overcome? I know the Trek-people thought so too, but I don't see why. On the contrary, there are lots of shows and stories where the writers realise that rich background is a wonderful tapestry. Established history is only a problem if you insist on seeing it as such. Sure, you have abide by the established story, but you can get as much inspiration from that (if not more) as you writing from a completely blank slate. I would say that any claim to the contrary is just lazy or misunderstood writing - not often do we see writers complaining over this then doing completely original works...

Imagine someone telling you a story, and they filled in the details of yesterday. You keep watching the tv series, and they keep telling you minute details of the past. Now, someone else takes over the tv series, and they decide to create a prequal series. Without regards to what is allready in place, they rewrite the history that was allready established for thirty years. (Star Trek history expands to 40 years.) Star Trek: Enterprise was a really nice series; however, they rewrote a mess of history that has been established for 33 years. Everything you have accepted as Star Trek/Star Wars lore is no longer valid. Everything you came to like about the previous series becomes lost. You spent several year watching your favorite show, or reading you favorite book, and then someone else rewrites everything that you have accepted and loved. How would you the viewer feel? <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd feel terrible. That's precisely the reason why I hated Enterprise (that they went back in time was bad enough, but they also did exactly what I feared - the rewrote the established, and suddenly we had Ferengi and Borg several centuries too early... Sorry, it's OT, but the wounds are still sore...).

 

However, what you describe here is just an example of bad writing. One thing I like in Star Wars is that the writers tend to see canon as a source of inspiration instead of an obstacle. Take Lady Lumiya. She was born on the pages of the Marvels comic books in the early 80s (between Empire and Jedi). After Jedi, she was briefly used as the successor to the Sith legacy after the deaths of Vader and Palpatine, but she slipped into obscurity when the comic book went under... The writers could have left her there, but no - they have revived her and use her as a major villain the new material. That's good use of background - you already have a rich and well-established character who has been there since the movies, so it's better to use that character than to create a new and similar one. She also has long history with Luke that is right there without having to do some pseudo history rewriting/addition.

[Grand Lord Revan]

Without Bastila KOTOR dosnt have a plot. Everything, even the battle meditation and Malaks reasons for wanting her. It's all focused on her.

They may need your memories to find the Star Forge , but if you take away the Bioware cheese , then Juhari, or Jolee could have killed Malak just as easily as you did.

 

So basically you seem to have fallen for the Revan hype rather than the reality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Maybe, I have fallen for the Revan hype (w00t), but why did we all play Revan and why was s/he so important if Juhani or Jolee could have done the job so easily? Was he just important to get the plans for the Star Forge? Why must s/he leave to face the True Sith if Juhani or Jolee could have done it?

 

So, there must be a point why Revan was so crucial for the stability of the galaxy and why s/he was the pratagonist in the game.

 

I don't think I lost my sense for reality .

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'd feel terrible. That's precisely the reason why I hated Enterprise (that they went back in time was bad enough, but they also did exactly what I feared - the rewrote the established, and suddenly we had Ferengi and Borg several centuries too early... Sorry, it's OT, but the wounds are still sore...).

 

However, what you describe here is just an example of bad writing. One thing I like in Star Wars is that the writers tend to see canon as a source of inspiration instead of an obstacle. Take Lady Lumiya. She was born on the pages of the Marvels comic books in the early 80s (between Empire and Jedi). After Jedi, she was briefly used as the successor to the Sith legacy after the deaths of Vader and Palpatine, but she slipped into obscurity when the comic book went under... The writers could have left her there, but no - they have revived her and use her as a major villain the new material. That's good use of background - you already have a rich and well-established character who has been there since the movies, so it's better to use that character than to create a new and similar one. She also has long history with Luke that is right there without having to do some pseudo history rewriting/addition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Same thing, only this time you know even less about how a particular player played a character.

 

canon Revan is LS Male is it not ? So if you use that for your start point. Well tough luck on everyone who was DS and or female.

 

So your talking about two very different things. Intergrating a book/movie with an established structure. Over a game , the only structure of which is a set of variables which change from player to player.

 

At least by killing the characters everyone gets the same blank slate to start over from without having to see those characters warped into something they were not.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Maybe, I have fallen for the Revan hype  (w00t), but why did we all play Revan and why was s/he so important if Juhani or Jolee could have done the job so easily? Was he just important to get the plans for the Star Forge? Why must s/he leave to face the True Sith if Juhani or Jolee could have done it?

 

So, there must be a point why Revan was so crucial for the stability of the galaxy and why s/he was the pratagonist in the game.

 

I don't think I lost my sense for reality  .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Simple enough. The CRPG structure required a character for which the player could make choices. Pre gen characters dont work here because they already have a personality. The exception being if you wipe that personality out , usually through amnesia (must like PST).

 

You were needed to find the Star Forge that's all. Beyond that, like I said any of your Jedi companions could have easily taken down Malak. There was nothing special about you that meant you were the only one who could do it.

 

Had they not found the Star Forge and destroyed it , then Malak would have won. Thats your "crucial" role. But all the key plotpoints revolve around Bastilla in some fashion. Even the choice of good or evil, all tied to Bastila.

 

Revan's a lot like Drizzt. The hype far exceeds the reality.

[Jediphile]

Same thing, only this time you know even less about how a particular player played a character.

 

canon Revan is LS Male is it not ? So if you use that for your start point. Well tough luck on everyone who was DS and or female.

 

So your talking about two very different things. Intergrating a book/movie with an established structure. Over a game , the only structure of which is a set of variables which change from player to player.

 

At least by killing the characters everyone gets the same blank slate to start over from without having to see those characters warped into something they were not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I managed to outline a plot for K3 that took the final LS/DS choices in K1 and K2 into account. If I can do it, then certainly professional game designers can, and I dare say that's probably the reason why the LS/DS endings are nowhere nearly as different in K2, as they were in K1.

[hawk]

Well, I managed to outline a plot for K3 that took the final LS/DS choices in K1 and K2 into account. If I can do it, then certainly professional game designers can, and I dare say that's probably the reason why the LS/DS endings are nowhere nearly as different in K2, as they were in K1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So that's three non professional writers that can do the Job:

You, The Architect, Me.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

So that's three non professional writers that can do the Job:

You, The Architect, Me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not like it's a difficult thing to do if your just writing a story. It's quite another matter when it's part of a game where your choices are supposed to be meaningful.

[Jediphile]

So that's three non professional writers that can do the Job:

You, The Architect, Me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not like it's a difficult thing to do if your just writing a story. It's quite another matter when it's part of a game where your choices are supposed to be meaningful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They were for mine (at least in my own head...), and I think they were in the other two cases as well... Even so, that's still an example of unprofessional writers being able to do it. I think we can expect at least as much from the professional writers, especially given how K2 seemed engineered toward it from its very inception. I mean, Revan goes to face the true Sith no mater what his alignment was in K1, and the Exile ends up following him regardless. That sounds like they were already setting the stage for K3 to me.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I mean, Revan goes to face the true Sith no mater what his alignment was in K1, and the Exile ends up following him regardless. That sounds like they were already setting the stage for K3 to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly. Whatever you chose had no meaning.

 

Never really going to know because of the cut content.

 

Thats why death works really well. Because you solve the problems having them around causes. But you also keep intact their purpose for fighting the Sith (whether it be DS or LS).

 

Otherwise you will end up fighting with or against one or both (depending on the alignments) and thats introduced a ton of work right there. Because at that point they need an identity and thats where you have to start recording 4 versions of everything for each character. Which is going to take time and disk space that could be better used making KOTOR III bigger and better.

[hawk]

I find that sometimes people to much think to much in black and white and think that bringing back the characters is a lot of work.

 

Well, In my story, you could select both Revan and the Exile's alignment, gender, face, everything.

What does occur though is that Revan is during the game LS, even if he was DS in Kotor I. The Exile to the contrary will fall to the DS during the game, also even if she was LS in Kotor II.

That would make it a lot easier for a Kotor III storywriter to build it. And if some fans don't like it. No problem, you could turn Revan DS again just like you could turn the Exile at the End to the LS again. No problem.

 

See, writing a story shouldn't be to difficult. I am sure that there are a dozen other solutions that I couldn't find but if they decide to just kill Revan and the Exile for Kotor III you can see me throwing bricks through the windows of the Lucasarts office .

 

So that's 2 versions of both Revan and the Exile!

Edited March 5, 2006 by hawk

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I find that sometimes people to much think to much in black and white and think that bringing back the characters is a lot of work.

 

Well, In my story, you could select both Revan and the Exile's alignment, gender, face, everything.

What does occur though is that Revan is during the game LS, even if he was DS in Kotor I. The Exile to the contrary will fall to the DS during the game, also even if she was LS in Kotor II.

That would make it a lot easier for a Kotor III storywriter to build it. And if some fans don't like it. No problem, you could turn Revan DS again just like you could turn the Exile at the End to the LS again. No problem.

 

See, writing a story shouldn't be to difficult. I am sure that there are a dozen other solutions that I couldn't find but if they decide to just kill Revan and the Exile for Kotor III you can see me throwing bricks through the windows of the Lucasarts office .

 

So that's 2 versions of both Revan and the Exile!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well thats because in a game it would be a lot of work.

 

See already you have invalidated the character for many people in both cases. Moreso perhaps with the Exile since the Exile is not a pregenerated character in the same way that Revan was.

 

Jedi are a bit like Yo-Yo's it seems (that wasnt aimed at you by the way , just the whole flip flopping jedi issue in general).

[Guest The Architect]

ShadowPaladin V1.0, I see where your coming from. Although it is possible to make a K3 story that could work that covers all gender and alignment combo's of Revan and the Exile, like I've done and hawk has done and Jediphile has done, it might just take too much writing, too much work, and K3 needs to be more of an individual game that doesn't rely on what happened during the previous two installments too much.

 

Obsidian handled Revan intelligently by not killing him/her off but also coming up with a legit excuse to keep Revan out of the game, this way they could focus on their own story/game and not spend all their time explaning what has happened, etc so, judging by what Obsidian did, if they make K3, you could bet your money on the fact that the writers might come up with some excuse to keep Revan and the Exile out of the game but what is the excuse going to be this time? Perhaps they will kill them off, it would afterall, make things a lot easier and I suppose from a certain point of view it makes a bit of sense since how the hell can two people (Revan and the Exile) take on the True Sith Empire all by themselves? And with Revan, five years after the events of K1 and still no word? What the hell has he/she been doing all this time? Unless Revan is dead.

[Jediphile]

I mean, Revan goes to face the true Sith no mater what his alignment was in K1, and the Exile ends up following him regardless. That sounds like they were already setting the stage for K3 to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly. Whatever you chose had no meaning.

 

Never really going to know because of the cut content.

 

Thats why death works really well. Because you solve the problems having them around causes. But you also keep intact their purpose for fighting the Sith (whether it be DS or LS).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, that's precisely why there is no problem - all of K2 was scripted toward this outcome. If they were going to kill of Revan and Exile, then there would be no point. They could have just left Revan out of it completely and let Exile end up wherever we wanted him to - it wouldn't have mattered either way, because they would both be killed in time for the next game anyway.

 

The fact that this is not how it turned is the exact reason why the inclusion of Revan and the Exile won't be a problem - they were always meant to be in K3 as far as I can tell, and *that* is why the story was stage to fit a specific outcome.

 

Doesn't mean that there it is irrelevant what you choose - the StarForge does live or die depending on your choices in K1, and Malachor V is destroyed or not depending on your choices in K2. If neither the Star Forge nor Malachor V will be deciding factors in K3, then this is fine and fits the intentions of the devs either way, which I think is what is the case here.

 

Otherwise you will end up fighting with or against one or both (depending on the alignments) and thats introduced a ton of work right there. Because at that point they need an identity and thats where you have to start recording 4 versions of everything for each character. Which is going to take time and disk space that could be better used making KOTOR III bigger and better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fighting Revan and Exile while needing them to be persuaded to join your side should be in K3 IMHO. It should also be a major part of your quest. This is part of what will make K3 great, I think, so I don't see the downside.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

No, that's precisely why there is no problem - all of K2 was scripted toward this outcome. If they were going to kill of Revan and Exile, then there would be no point. They could have just left Revan out of it completely and let Exile end up wherever we wanted him to - it wouldn't have mattered either way, because they would both be killed in time for the next game anyway.

 

The fact that this is not how it turned is the exact reason why the inclusion of Revan and the Exile won't be a problem - they were always meant to be in K3 as far as I can tell, and *that* is why the story was stage to fit a specific outcome.

 

Doesn't mean that there it is irrelevant what you choose - the StarForge does live or die depending on your choices in K1, and Malachor V is destroyed or not depending on your choices in K2. If neither the Star Forge nor Malachor V will be deciding factors in K3, then this is fine and fits the intentions of the devs either way, which I think is what is the case here.

 

Fighting Revan and Exile while needing them to be persuaded to join your side should be in K3 IMHO. It should also be a major part of your quest. This is part of what will make K3 great, I think, so I don't see the downside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Or K2 was scripted to get them both out of the Galaxy. Off fighting the Sith is closure of sorts. At least as far as being a playable character goes.

 

We are talking about very personal choices here. What makes a character a character, not about things blowing up. Having characers that were DS/LS mastery showing up with a totally different alignment and a totally different personality is ridiculous.

 

It's like someone writing Captain Picards part for Captain Kirk.

 

Whats so great about it ? If they were both LS and your LS why are you fighting anyway ?

If you have to fight them, then you are going to be another Uber Jedi if you have to fight both of them at the same time, well your going to push even that definition.

 

If you have to fight alongside them, then you need to be equally powerful or your not the star of the show they are.

[Jediphile]

See already you have invalidated the character for many people in both cases. Moreso perhaps with the Exile since the Exile is not a pregenerated character in the same way that Revan was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't agree that Hawk invalidates Revan's choice in K1 because she gives him a fixed alignment in her K3 plot. K1 spanned less than one year. Revan left the republic a year after that. Since then four years have passed before we even begin K2. A lot could have happened in that time, which means that Revan could have changed yet again.

 

In my plot I made both Revan and Exile DS. Does that invalidate their choices in K1 and K2 respectively? No, because the Star Forge and Malachor will still be destroyed or not depending on what choices they made at that point. And there are good reasons why they both fell to the dark side.

 

Revan was your character in K1. He was not in K2. Exile was your character in K2, but neither he nor Revan will be in K3 (or so I think). You only get to make choices for them and decide their alignments during the time when you actually play them. Revan was DS before K1 began, whether you liked it or not. Exile used the Mass Shadow Generator and cut himself off from the force, whether you like it or not. Just as it is unreasonable to demand control over these characters before you began playing them, it is similarly unreasonable to demand that they remain static in the alignments you chose for them for posterity after you stopped playing them.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Just as it is unreasonable to demand control over these characters before you began playing them, it is similarly unreasonable to demand that they remain static in the alignments you chose for them for posterity after you stopped playing them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So if another writer got their hands on Star Wars and rewrote the characters that would be ok would it ?

 

I don't think it's unreasonable that the character should reflect the alignment they had while they were playable. If that can't be done, then a "heroic" death will sufice.

[Jediphile]

Just as it is unreasonable to demand control over these characters before you began playing them, it is similarly unreasonable to demand that they remain static in the alignments you chose for them for posterity after you stopped playing them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So if another writer got their hands on Star Wars and rewrote the characters that would be ok would it ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If he jumps five years into the future, then I would expect the characters to grow and change. They should be recognizable as the characters we knew and any inconsistencies should be explained, but apart from that I would expect it. People change over the course of five years.

 

The way you describe it, it almost makes me think you objected to Han and Leia being married and having children in the Thrawn trilogy five years after RotJ. Or more to the point, Leia had become aware of enough of her force sensitivity to feel the babies growing in her womb. By your logic that is inconsistent or what?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

If he jumps five years into the future, then I would expect the characters to grow and change. They should be recognizable as the characters we knew and any inconsistencies should be explained, but apart from that I would expect it. People change over the course of five years.

 

The way you describe it, it almost makes me think you objected to Han and Leia being married and having children in the Thrawn trilogy five years after RotJ. Or more to the point, Leia had become aware of enough of her force sensitivity to feel the babies growing in her womb. By your logic that is inconsistent or what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People do grow and change. But they dont flip flop from one extreme to the other and back again.

 

Why ? Seems perfectly reasonable given who her father is. How about if she put on Dads armour and tried to take over the Galaxy, thats a bit out of character for her isnt it ?

[Jediphile]

If he jumps five years into the future, then I would expect the characters to grow and change. They should be recognizable as the characters we knew and any inconsistencies should be explained, but apart from that I would expect it. People change over the course of five years.

 

The way you describe it, it almost makes me think you objected to Han and Leia being married and having children in the Thrawn trilogy five years after RotJ. Or more to the point, Leia had become aware of enough of her force sensitivity to feel the babies growing in her womb. By your logic that is inconsistent or what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People do grow and change. But they dont flip flop from one extreme to the other and back again.

 

Why ? Seems perfectly reasonable given who her father is. How about if she put on Dads armour and tried to take over the Galaxy, thats a bit out of character for her isnt it ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, there were those who called her "Lady Vader" in those books...

[hawk]

Hahaha, the Flip flop way.

Nah, it isn't flip flop. How many times have you seen and read Star Wars Shadow Paladin. You have seen so many ways how Jedi fall Dark Side, turn light again etc. I even read a fanfic on kotorfanmedia were the force ghost of Revan meets Anakin while he is on his way to Mustafar.

What does Anakin say when Revan introduced himself: "O yeah, you are the one who couldn't stop switching sides" :D