Darque Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 We're talking about in fantasy games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrielle Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Ah yes. NEVER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 No! You said you liked Arcanum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrielle Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 No! You said you liked Arcanum <{POST_SNAPBACK}> that is different, has it's own setting. Most of the D&D worlds are strictly sword and magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think a weird and wondorous universe where magic has advanced to the poinot that technology's been left behind would be cool. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think a weird and wondorous universe where magic has advanced to the poinot that technology's been left behind would be cool. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> One of the key points of technology is that anyone can use it. Where as Magic tends to be something that only a small % of the populace can use. A world where everyone is a mage and magic is common place would certainly be different in CRPG terms. Of course if everyone can use magic, then there really is no need for technology. I kind of like the FFX plot where technology is forbidden because it's to blame for the Machina Wars and the coming of SIN. The people who use it are persecuted but obviously there is more to it than that I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 One of the key points of technology is that anyone can use it. Where as Magic tends to be something that only a small % of the populace can use. A world where everyone is a mage and magic is common place would certainly be different in CRPG terms. Of course if everyone can use magic, then there really is no need for technology. There's no reason magic shouldn't be so commonplace in life, accepted and PART of life that everyone, everything has some connection and some ability to manipulate or appreciate it. Which brings up the point that how useful technology would be when you've got something much better. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 There's no reason magic shouldn't be so commonplace in life, accepted and PART of life that everyone, everything has some connection and some ability to manipulate or appreciate it. Which brings up the point that how useful technology would be when you've got something much better. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> An interesting scenerio in such a case would be if magic was fading from the world. Which would be an absolute disaster. Think I already commented on that. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Which brings up the point that how useful technology would be when you've got something much better. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> For example, a species evolved to "develop" this magic, thus, technology would be part of the world, but would it slowly die out? That kinda thing? "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Think of a parallel to this world - spirituality and faith have taken backseat to the worship/persuit of science. Of course some people are religious and have faith, but it's mostly an optional thing that a secular society doesn't care about. There are nations and cultures where spirituality is much more central than in others. In a world where magic rules, "technology" exists but has been getting less attention, is used less and is on the verge of getting irrelevant. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Think of a parallel to this world - spirituality and faith have taken backseat to the worship/persuit of science. Of course some people are religious and have faith, but it's mostly an optional thing that a secular society doesn't care about. There are nations and cultures where spirituality is much more central than in others. In a world where magic rules, "technology" exists but has been getting less attention, is used less and is on the verge of getting irrelevant. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Edgey social commentry I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Edgey social commentry <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exploding sock puppet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think a weird and wondorous universe where magic has advanced to the poinot that technology's been left behind would be cool. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> One of the key points of technology is that anyone can use it. Where as Magic tends to be something that only a small % of the populace can use. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, not really. A fighter can quaff a healing potion. What percentage of the population can explain how the internal combustion engine works, as a proportion of those that use one every day? The only reason you feel that technology is omnipresent democratic yawnfest is because of James Watts and the rest of the Lunar Society that helped birth the Industrial revolution, and Henry Ford's moving assembly line, et alia. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 No, not really. A fighter can quaff a healing potion. What percentage of the population can explain how the internal combustion engine works, as a proportion of those that use one every day? The only reason you feel that technology is omnipresent democratic yawnfest is because of James Watts and the rest of the Lunar Society that helped birth the Industrial revolution, and Henry Ford's moving assembly line, et alia. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Same distinction.A fighter can drink a potion but he cant make it. A person can operate a techonlogical device without having to know how to make one. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Um, yes. Thank you for wearing my watch and telling me the time: how much do I owe you for that service? OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginthaeriel Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 Alright, I think things have gotten too complex. Let me try and simplify my argument. 1. RPGs have heroes, who level up and kill lots of baddies. 2. In real life, we don't get to level up and kill lots of baddies. We would like to, but we do not live in a world that has baddies. So RPGs are escapist. 3. If the baddies were weak, then it'd be boring. But for them to be powerful, they must have some source of... um... power. And for us to kill them, we must be even more powerful than they are. Where the hell does that power come from? 4. I think that that power can come from either Magic (distorts natural law) or Technology (exploits natural law)*0 in the realm of escapist fiction.*1 5. With power comes an ethical dilemma: Whether you use the power virtuously, or selfishly. This ethical dilemma is what drives the narratives of most RPGs or escapist fiction. *2 6. ... So how would having the power come from magic affect this ethical dilemma? How would technology? Which one do you think is more interesting/creates a better RPG or story? I hope that clarifies things at least a little. I placed these footnotes so that it would not distract from my line of reasoning: *0 This is my definition of Magic vs. Technology. As for the exact implementation of them when they are put into context, such as whether quaffing potions or "teh force" count as either Magic or Technology... that is a gray area. It doesn't exist in an either/or situation, it's a continuum. As I said, magic and technology can be mixed. This would create some interesting scenarios. Example: What happens when magic is institutionalized? When it becomes a science and everyone knows how to use it? See: Harry Potter's world. Wouldn't that destroy the very magic of magic? Is that really magic, or just another form of technology? AKA "Clarketech", when the two become indistinguishable. *1 This would determine whether it is Fantasy Escapist fiction or Sci Fi Escapist fiction. But I'm not talking about Fantasy Sci Fi literature in general though. And I am most certainly not talking about all literature in general either! Whether the literature has an engaging story, has complex and strong characters, explores philosophical ideas, etc. are besides the point. I'm only exploring narratives in RPGs, because we are on the "Computer and Console" forum in a message board owned by an RPG games developer, after all. *2 Myths are about those who have great power and uses it for good- heroes, who rise above the temptation- and those who use it for evil- villains, who succumb. We praise heroes for being stronger than us, strong enough to resist the allure of having great power. Look at every RPG: It's always the same thing. Good guy vs. Bad guy. Hero vs. Villain. Myths always have hyperbole of the abilities of the heroes, and the heroes become almost supernatural. I'm not looking at the historical veracity of the myth, but rather its telling. Spartacus the man who actually lived and died thousands of years ago has got nothing to do with this. Spartacus the movie dramatizes his ability to mythic, magical heights: I doubt the actual Spartacus had fights anywhere near as spectacular as that chariot scene. The magic is introduced in the dramatization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 2. In real life, we don't get to level up and kill lots of baddies. We would like to, but we do not live in a world that has baddies. So RPGs are escapist. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well we do, but we also live in a world of laws. Because the baddies are protected under the same laws killing them isnt an easy option. Thats probably the largest difference. In a "fantasy" game not only are the bad guys not protected in that way, but they are actively hunted. There are a few games which are the exception. What seperates Sci-Fi and fantasy is that Sci-Fi is grounded in principles of science where as fantasy is made up. Star Wars is a good example of this. Things just tend to work and if they dont you get out your hydrospanner. But there is no real explanation behind why they work. Although typically when you say fantasy most people will think of Swords and Sorcery. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Alright, I think things have gotten too complex. Let me try and simplify my argument. 1. RPGs have heroes, who level up and kill lots of baddies. 2. In real life, we don't get to level up and kill lots of baddies. We would like to, but we do not live in a world that has baddies. So RPGs are escapist. 3. If the baddies were weak, then it'd be boring. But for them to be powerful, they must have some source of... um... power. And for us to kill them, we must be even more powerful than they are. Where the hell does that power come from? 4. I think that that power can come from either Magic (distorts natural law) or Technology (exploits natural law)*0 in the realm of escapist fiction.*1 5. With power comes an ethical dilemma: Whether you use the power virtuously, or selfishly. This ethical dilemma is what drives the narratives of most RPGs or escapist fiction. *2 6. ... So how would having the power come from magic affect this ethical dilemma? How would technology? Which one do you think is more interesting/creates a better RPG or story? I hope that clarifies things at least a little. I placed these footnotes so that it would not distract from my line of reasoning: *0 This is my definition of Magic vs. Technology. As for the exact implementation of them when they are put into context, such as whether quaffing potions or "teh force" count as either Magic or Technology... that is a gray area. It doesn't exist in an either/or situation, it's a continuum. As I said, magic and technology can be mixed. This would create some interesting scenarios. Example: What happens when magic is institutionalized? When it becomes a science and everyone knows how to use it? See: Harry Potter's world. Wouldn't that destroy the very magic of magic? Is that really magic, or just another form of technology? AKA "Clarketech", when the two become indistinguishable. *1 This would determine whether it is Fantasy Escapist fiction or Sci Fi Escapist fiction. But I'm not talking about Fantasy Sci Fi literature in general though. And I am most certainly not talking about all literature in general either! Whether the literature has an engaging story, has complex and strong characters, explores philosophical ideas, etc. are besides the point. I'm only exploring narratives in RPGs, because we are on the "Computer and Console" forum in a message board owned by an RPG games developer, after all. *2 Myths are about those who have great power and uses it for good- heroes, who rise above the temptation- and those who use it for evil- villains, who succumb. We praise heroes for being stronger than us, strong enough to resist the allure of having great power. Look at every RPG: It's always the same thing. Good guy vs. Bad guy. Hero vs. Villain. Myths always have hyperbole of the abilities of the heroes, and the heroes become almost supernatural. I'm not looking at the historical veracity of the myth, but rather its telling. Spartacus the man who actually lived and died thousands of years ago has got nothing to do with this. Spartacus the movie dramatizes his ability to mythic, magical heights: I doubt the actual Spartacus had fights anywhere near as spectacular as that chariot scene. The magic is introduced in the dramatization. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes. We do get to level up (are you still level 1?). There are indeed bad people in the real world. No, we don't have open season on them, though. Escapism alternate definition: anti-stress (where stress is defined as the result when one is prevented from acting out the urge to strangle someone who acting like a berk). Training for 1337 ninja chimp judo. Or political scheming. Okay, or magic. Okay. *0 Okay. Yes. Not that interesting, really, just a facsimile of RL. *1 Right-O. Scope definition understood, if not agreeable. ... And, in fact, most (all mythical) literature.*2 Yes. But what about anti-heroes? The life of Spartacus has indubitably been romanticised, but that's kinda irrelevant, isn't it? If not, maybe this is what you need to elucidate on. Depends on the definition of the magic, e.g. "Divine domain" or "Death Magic", etc.Technology is alignment-neutral. A tool. Like an internal combustion engine: it can be used as to power an ambulance, or a tank. Unless a particular scenario defines a specific type of technology as evil like, say, harvesting live convicts' organs. Against their will. Or a rifle to hunt people rather than food.Irrelevant. Good writing uses whatever. Addenda: Dunno if, in clarifying your points, you have overly narrowed their scope. All the definitions are acceptable (if not agreeable), but there isn't a lot to debate given all the assumptions you have set out. I still don't see any relevance between magic-tech and ethics. Unless you are defining one as inherently good or evil. PS Writing style: ++ INFLUENCE GAINED ++ OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 What seperates Sci-Fi and fantasy is that Sci-Fi is grounded in principles of science where as fantasy is made up. Star Wars is a good example of this. Things just tend to work and if they dont you get out your hydrospanner. But there is no real explanation behind why they work. Although typically when you say fantasy most people will think of Swords and Sorcery. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I can agree with this. I imagine Star Trek somewhat bridges the gap. Sure, it's based on science...fantasy science. If something doesn't work, they'll make up something that will make it work. "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astr0creep Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 What seperates Sci-Fi and fantasy is that Sci-Fi is grounded in principles of science where as fantasy is made up. Star Wars is a good example of this. Things just tend to work and if they dont you get out your hydrospanner. But there is no real explanation behind why they work. Although typically when you say fantasy most people will think of Swords and Sorcery. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I can agree with this. I imagine Star Trek somewhat bridges the gap. Sure, it's based on science...fantasy science. If something doesn't work, they'll make up something that will make it work. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Isn't this how science and technology works? It's been "proven" that all the tech in Star Trek is theoretically possible. How many scientists are currently working on warp drive tech or phaser tech or teleportation or, best of all, a holodeck? Those are all currently researched technologies and they are all from Star Trek. About 10 years ago, me and a friend we wanted to start a PnP game in the Star Trek universe. We tried basing our system on D&D and it mostly worked quite well. Our main problem came with magic vs. science. Magic is like chaotic imagination. You can come up with anything and call it magic. With science, you MUST explain it. That limited our "science powers" pool as we didn't have the scientific knowledge to invent new sciences or confirm theories. Not enough to make a good PnP out of it anyway. All we had were classes like engineer or science officers and command but had almost no feats or skills for those. Not enough to make a game. We went nuts with the potential of space though... All I'm saying is that science in games is limited by the capabilities of the writers to explain the theories. you don't have that problem with magic. http://entertainmentandbeyond.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I disagree that magic is chaotic by definition and anything science needs to be rational. In a setting there can be a study and development of magic while people could be hit and miss with science. Kind of like observing some phenomenon (mixing chems for example) and replicating that effect although they don't know the reasons behind it. It's not difficult to flip the methodology. Holodeck FTW, btw. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astr0creep Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I disagree that magic is chaotic by definition and anything science needs to be rational. In a setting there can be a study and development of magic while people could be hit and miss with science. Kind of like observing some phenomenon (mixing chems for example) and replicating that effect although they don't know the reasons behind it. It's not difficult to flip the methodology. Holodeck FTW, btw. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know about you, but if they ever discover how to teleport a human being from the surface of the earth to a space station or a ship orbiting the planet, they better know exactly how and why it happens or I ain't EVAR stepping on that teleporter pad. Unexplained science is only speculation, no? http://entertainmentandbeyond.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 (edited) Holodeck FTW, btw. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Miyamoto was working on one. Although it would be more like being inside a room of TV screens (walls,floor and ceiling) than an actual holodeck. Edited February 23, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0 I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astr0creep Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Holodeck FTW, btw. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Miyamoto was working on one. Although it would be more like being inside a room of TV screens (walls,floor and ceiling) than an actual holodeck. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It has to start somewhere. They still need to discover that energy and matter are interchangeable. Humans are so primitive. http://entertainmentandbeyond.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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