Who Kriea actually could be?

[Jediphile]

Or for Yusanis taking her child away and sending her to his home? Maybe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's what I meant. The last bit of my post above was a typo. :">

 

Also, Yusanis was prominent even before the Mandalorian Wars, and Would have made more than one trip to Corusant over the years.... Who says they didn't meet then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Given that Handmaiden is, as far as I can tell, at least 17 in KotOR, there is no question that she must have been the result of a union between Yusanis and Arren Kae *before* the Mandalorian Wars even began, which was a full 15 years before the events of K2 and still several years before Revan led his followers against the mandalorians.

[SSgtSniper]

As you also see in Episode III; Anakin says he has to leave the Academy if Padme gets het child...

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, that's 4000 years later - of course the rules couldn't have changed by then...

 

Again, I don't believe it would have happened this way. Corran Horn's grandfather had a wife, and child, and was not exiled. Having families has always been frowned upon, yes. I have never seen an actual exile in literature or other that has been for the choice to procreate. I don't think they like it, but the exile for it is self-induced in all the situations involved. The person in question always tries to hide what they are doing, fearing something that has never happened. Sure, they'd try to talk you out of it, but in the end, they aren't going to throw you out for it.

Edited February 27, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[Canaan Aphettu]

Again, I don't believe it would have happened this way. Corran Horn's grandfather had a wife, and child, and was not exiled. Having families has always been frowned upon, yes. I have never seen an actual exile in literature or other that has been for the choice to procreate. I don't think they like it, but the exile for it is self-induced in all the situations involved. The person in question always tries to hide what they are doing, fearing something that has never happened. Sure, they'd try to talk you out of it, but in the end, they aren't going to throw you out for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that, generally, rather than become exiled for having a marriage, most family Jedi choose to leave - such as Jedi like Quinlan Vos, who, at the time of Episode III, was in the same situation as Anakin - wife and newborn - and had chosen to do his duty in the war, and then to leave the order. Of course, he never gets the chance to leave per say, because the Jedi are scattered and he barely survives with his life, and then manages to live in hiding with his wife and child.

 

 

I think that the reason that few Jedi are heard of being exiled for the crime of marriage is because most family Jedi choose to leave before the council can decree it, but certainly if a Jedi tries simply to hide her child, as Kae did, she would be exiled not only for breaking the rules, but also for keeping her sin a secret.

[SSgtSniper]

But see, there are members of the council over the years who have had families. The need to raise a family is a strong one, and even Jedi training cannot always curb it. Which is one of the reasons I think while they frown on it, they've never exiled someone for it. Which is why I don't buy Kae being exiled simply for having a kid.

[Jediphile]

But see, there are members of the council over the years who have had families. The need to raise a family is a strong one, and even Jedi training cannot always curb it. Which is one of the reasons I think while they frown on it, they've never exiled someone for it. Which is why I don't buy Kae being exiled simply for having a kid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, it sounds like an excuse or a cover-up by Kreia, when you know that Jolee had a wife and wasn't kicked, and Nomi had child and was still considered one of the most admired and worthy jedi of her time, which is not long before KotOR...

[SSgtSniper]

Well, Nomi already had the kid by that time, I'll give them that. However, her husband was a Jedi, and he wasn't exiled, and when he died she was asked to train and take his place. Hmmmm............

[Jediphile]

Well, Nomi already had the kid by that time, I'll give them that. However, her husband was a Jedi, and he wasn't exiled, and when he died she was asked to train and take his place. Hmmmm............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know, but how important is really whether she had the child before or after? I mean, the way Bastila describes in K1, the tradition of cutting the connections to the family has mostly something to do with the emotions between family being so strong that it becomes very difficult for a jedi to see past them. Yet they trained Nomi anyway.

 

Consider if Nomi had fought HK-47. HK tells the Exile to attack the jedi's friends, so HK attacks Vima instead of Nomi. How would Nomi react to that? Would she be susceptible to fall the dark side as a consequence? I think she would - the mother-child relationship is about as strong a bond as I can imagine and seems to be virtually impossible for a mother to see beyond. Whether it is Nomi's "fault" or not is just a secondary consideration next to that, yet the masters still didn't hesitate to train Nomi...

[Dyan]

And why would she be happy with Revan if he/she has killed her husband?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who says she's happy with it? I actually think that is precisely the "betrayal of the heart" that she talks about as a condition for becoming Darth Traya. Either that or the "betrayal of the heart" lies with Yusanis leaving her, when she turned to the dark side with their child.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Following that line of thought... is it possible that Kreia had Revan kill Yusanis out of revenge? I mean, if she was his teacher, I would have to wonder if she directed at least some of his actions... and if Revan took out Yusanis for breaking Kreia's heart. I mean, if Revan cared for Kreia as much as she seems to for him/her... ?

[Jediphile]

And why would she be happy with Revan if he/she has killed her husband?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who says she's happy with it? I actually think that is precisely the "betrayal of the heart" that she talks about as a condition for becoming Darth Traya. Either that or the "betrayal of the heart" lies with Yusanis leaving her, when she turned to the dark side with their child.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Following that line of thought... is it possible that Kreia had Revan kill Yusanis out of revenge? I mean, if she was his teacher, I would have to wonder if she directed at least some of his actions... and if Revan took out Yusanis for breaking Kreia's heart. I mean, if Revan cared for Kreia as much as she seems to for him/her... ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess we can't rule it out, though I doubt it myself. IIRC, the story is described more like Revan was trying to destablize the Echani worlds during his war on the republic, and it wasn't until Yusanis tried intervene and stop Revan that Revan even acknowledged him. Once that happened, goodbye Yusanis...

[The Great Phantom]

Let's look at a few things:

 

The Jedi before Exar Kun could have families, etc. (although many of those who did were watchmen and not real Jedi living in their cloistered 'monasteries'

 

The Jedi after Exar Kun could not have families. It became HIGHLY frowned upon, even if it was never explicitly stated to be bad.

[Jediphile]

Let's look at a few things:

 

The Jedi before Exar Kun could have families, etc. (although many of those who did were watchmen and not real Jedi living in their cloistered 'monasteries'

 

The Jedi after Exar Kun could not have families. It became HIGHLY frowned upon, even if it was never explicitly stated to be bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I've never seen that established anywhere, which makes it more likely as far as I'm concerned that Kreia is simply twisting the facts to hide her own past.

 

Also, Jolee's story does not seem to confirm that there was a fundamental change of perception in the order just after the Sith War.

[SSgtSniper]

Let's look at a few things:

 

The Jedi before Exar Kun could have families, etc. (although many of those who did were watchmen and not real Jedi living in their cloistered 'monasteries'

 

The Jedi after Exar Kun could not have families. It became HIGHLY frowned upon, even if it was never explicitly stated to be bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ehhh! Wrong. Vandar himself says "we are not a cloistered order."

 

 

It's always been frowned upon, but the fact remains there is yet to be a single formal exile handed out over having a wife, or a child, or a relationship.

[SSgtSniper]

Well, Nomi already had the kid by that time, I'll give them that. However, her husband was a Jedi, and he wasn't exiled, and when he died she was asked to train and take his place. Hmmmm............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know, but how important is really whether she had the child before or after? I mean, the way Bastila describes in K1, the tradition of cutting the connections to the family has mostly something to do with the emotions between family being so strong that it becomes very difficult for a jedi to see past them. Yet they trained Nomi anyway.

 

Consider if Nomi had fought HK-47. HK tells the Exile to attack the jedi's friends, so HK attacks Vima instead of Nomi. How would Nomi react to that? Would she be susceptible to fall the dark side as a consequence? I think she would - the mother-child relationship is about as strong a bond as I can imagine and seems to be virtually impossible for a mother to see beyond. Whether it is Nomi's "fault" or not is just a secondary consideration next to that, yet the masters still didn't hesitate to train Nomi...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You lost me somewhere in there. Reword please, I didn't understand.

[Jediphile]

Well, Nomi already had the kid by that time, I'll give them that. However, her husband was a Jedi, and he wasn't exiled, and when he died she was asked to train and take his place. Hmmmm............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know, but how important is really whether she had the child before or after? I mean, the way Bastila describes in K1, the tradition of cutting the connections to the family has mostly something to do with the emotions between family being so strong that it becomes very difficult for a jedi to see past them. Yet they trained Nomi anyway.

 

Consider if Nomi had fought HK-47. HK tells the Exile to attack the jedi's friends, so HK attacks Vima instead of Nomi. How would Nomi react to that? Would she be susceptible to fall the dark side as a consequence? I think she would - the mother-child relationship is about as strong a bond as I can imagine and seems to be virtually impossible for a mother to see beyond. Whether it is Nomi's "fault" or not is just a secondary consideration next to that, yet the masters still didn't hesitate to train Nomi...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You lost me somewhere in there. Reword please, I didn't understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay, I'll give it a shot...

 

In K2 you can get HK-47 to give you advice on how to kill jedi, if you build high influence with him. It basically comes down to never attacking a jedi, but rather attacking those they protect, because a jedi will avoid your attacks if you direct them at him/her, but happily jump in front of them, if you target the innocent bystanders.

 

Now, what if Nomi's daughter was killed or even wounded due to such a tactic? How would Nomi react?

 

I think she would be pretty furious, because the mother-child relationship is one of the strongest there. With that in play, I think jedi philosophy quickly goes out the window, which would leave the mother (or even father) very vulnerable to influence by the dark side.

 

Similarly, Anakin truly began to fall with the death of his mother, which is the same bond, only from the other side. He quickly abandoned his jedi ways too (and his orders), and when his mother died, he slaughtered an entire village of sand people.

 

But I actually consider Anakin's nothing next to what a parent would be prepared to do to save his or her child(ren).

 

If you wanted to corrupt Nomi, threatening Vima (her daughter) would be a very effective way to do that.

 

And HK is right, because Nomi would give up her life in a second to save her child.

 

And yet, Nomi is still considered one of the greatest and most admirable jedi of her day even so.

[SSgtSniper]

Okay. Got it that time. You were thinking too fast as you were typing, because the two don't resemble each other much.

[The Great Phantom]

If the Jedi aren't a "cloistered Order," then why didn't they help during the Mandalorian Wars? I know it's just me, but it seemed really ironic that Vandar said that, while five years later, everybody else says exactly the opposite, including Zez-Kai-Ell...

[Plano Skywalker]

the bottom line is that we need this fleshed out more.....we need a concrete date in the EU timeline when it became established by the Order that Jedi could not be married.

 

obviously, by the movie era, this had been fully established.

[SSgtSniper]

the bottom line is that we need this fleshed out more.....we need a concrete date in the EU timeline when it became established by the Order that Jedi could not be married.

 

obviously, by the movie era, this had been fully established.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Even then, it wasn't established is my point. Corran Horn's Grandfather married, had a son, and was kiled in the purge, and his wife and child hid. He wasn't exiled for his marraige. I'm telling you it may be frowned on, but there isn't one single exile ever handed out for having a family anywhere in the movies, the literature, or the games. It's as much in the heads of those doing so as anything else. They fear persecution that never happens, because they are told not to do it. It's a bluff is all I'm saying.

[Canaan Aphettu]

the bottom line is that we need this fleshed out more.....we need a concrete date in the EU timeline when it became established by the Order that Jedi could not be married.

 

obviously, by the movie era, this had been fully established.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Even then, it wasn't established is my point. Corran Horn's Grandfather married, had a son, and was kiled in the purge, and his wife and child hid. He wasn't exiled for his marraige. I'm telling you it may be frowned on, but there isn't one single exile ever handed out for having a family anywhere in the movies, the literature, or the games. It's as much in the heads of those doing so as anything else. They fear persecution that never happens, because they are told not to do it. It's a bluff is all I'm saying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But every situation would be different - perhaps Grandfather Horn wasn't exiled because the council saw more wide-reaching problems involved in this - perhaps they were worried he'd become bitter and fall to the Dark Side.

 

I think that, Yoda being a very wise Jedi, he would foresee the effects of secret marriage, or exile, upon Jedi. He would have known that this would be their downfall and therefore would have made sure the matter was handled with care.

 

 

Jedi of older times may not have been as careful.

[Plano Skywalker]

Even then, it wasn't established is my point. Corran Horn's Grandfather married, had a son, and was kiled in the purge, and his wife and child hid. He wasn't exiled for his marraige. I'm telling you it may be frowned on, but there isn't one single exile ever handed out for having a family anywhere in the movies, the literature, or the games. It's as much in the heads of those doing so as anything else. They fear persecution that never happens, because they are told not to do it. It's a bluff is all I'm saying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well, good point. I have said before that it seems to follow the pattern of the Eastern Orthodox Church...you can be a priest and marry. However, if you marry, you will never be a bishop or anything like that.

 

I think that is how the Jedi Order operates....only those who give themselves totally to the study of the Force can ever advance and sit on the High Council.

 

And for a Padawan to marry, well, that pretty much ends the padawan's formal training.

[Jediphile]

Okay. Got it that time. You were thinking too fast as you were typing, because the two don't resemble each other much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now why does that sound strangely familiar... :"> :D

[Jediphile]

If the Jedi aren't a "cloistered Order," then why didn't they help during the Mandalorian Wars?  I know it's just me, but it seemed really ironic that Vandar said that, while five years later, everybody else says exactly the opposite, including Zez-Kai-Ell...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The council's decision not to fight in the Mandalorian Wars was not due to being a cloistered order, but rather because they feared what fighting such a war could mean for the order's members. Note that Bastila describes this in K1 and tells Carth that they would have aided in time - Revan just never gave the order the chance, but instead forced the issue and so split the order.

 

Even Kreia knows that the Mandalorians taught the jedi through battle, and Revan used that to corrupt those jedi who had followed him.

 

That is precisely the sort of outcome the order feared.

[The Great Phantom]

Well, if I ever had any amount of time to finish a point in one sitting, then I would try to make my point, but I don't so I won't...

 

Quick question:

Was it his marriage that Jolee was trying to keep hidden, or was it him training his wife? He never said anything (in my memory) of wanting exiled for being married, but for training somebody in secret, who later killed many Jedi...

[Jediphile]

Was it his marriage that Jolee was trying to keep hidden, or was it him training his wife? He never said anything (in my memory) of wanting exiled for being married, but for training somebody in secret, who later killed many Jedi...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He trained her in secret after the council turned down his request to do so.

 

I'll just post the whole thing, so people can see for themselves... Sorry about the length

 

Jolee: "My wife's name was Nayama. She was the Ukatis enforcer who shot me out of the sky, if you remember.No I'm not senile, dammit! Not yet, anyway. Hmmm... well at least I don't think so. At any rate, I'll tell the story the way I want to.Bah. You got ears that work, don't you? I was a smuggler, way way back. I got shot down once over Ukatis. THAT story, yes.My wife had plenty to do with the war. Upon meeting her, I knew right away that she was strong in the Force. That's why she was able to shoot me down.Nayama was a marvel of a woman. Fiery, determined, smart... she dragged me to the capital and foiled three of my attempts to escape prison. Oh, and that body...Well... yes, that. Needless to say I eventually won her over. That was after I kidnapped her upon being broken out of the Ukatis prison, mind you. But uh, that's another story entirely.At any rate, I wanted to train her in the Jedi way. The Council refused my request, naturally. I was still a Padawan at the time.Nayama was intrigued by the idea of becoming a Jedi. She liked the idea of power too much, perhaps, but I certainly didn't see that at the time.I believed in her and trained her in secret. I ignored her willful nature... I loved her too much to see fault in her.And she loved me, too. I know she did. At the time, our love was a shared bliss... better than anything I had known before or since.Exar Kun is what happened. Nayama was inspired by Exar's promises of a new Golden Age. She wanted to join him.She came to me, pleading with me to throw aside what she called the decrepit trappings of the Jedi... to join her in Exar's war.I pleaded with her to reconsider, to think about all that she was throwing away... to think about what she would become.She would have none of it. Finally, in frustration, she attacked me. She drew her lightsaber and attempted to strike me down.It was a scene being repeated everywhere throughout the galaxy. Pupil against master. In my case... it was a long and terrible battle, but I defeated her.No... no. I had her at my mercy, disarmed and defenseless. She looked up at me and she knew... she knew I couldn't do it.Was I? Sometimes I convince myself that I couldn't have done otherwise... that I couldn't have seen that she had truly fallen to the dark side. But, yes, I was a fool.And I let her go. To my shame, she went on to kill many Jedi during the war until she, herself, was slain in the final battle.I grieved for her death, inevitable as it was, even as the Jedi Council put me on trial for my actions once the war was over.I had trained Nayama against their wishes. I had failed to kill her when I had the chance, and she went on to kill others.It was a travesty, of course. I told you that even the Jedi were capable of great injustices, didn't I?But I deserved to be tried. They found me innocent.Even though I... deserved every punishment and more... they let me go. Mitigating circumstances, they said. I deserved compassion, they said.That... that was when the Jedi left me. That was when they failed me.They may have been able to forgive me. I... could never forgive myself."

[The Great Phantom]

So Jolee didn't leave, nor was considered for exiled, for having a wife, just for training her against their decree...

 

That's what I thought... Jedi weren't supposed to not love until after Exar Kun's war, or thereabout...