Who Kriea actually could be?

[SSgtSniper]

Aye interesting theory but doesnt work for me either to be honest.

 

Kreia was Revans teacher and Kae was a jedi that followed Revan to war, so right there a problem is presented. Kreia never followed Revan, Revan went to Kreia when he needed advice/mentoring.

 

In fact I cant think of a single time in the game its said Kreia actually took part in the Mandalorian Wars to be honest.

 

I think she was more a interested bystander watching how it unfolds.

 

Also, Kreia doesnt speak to Atton because she thinks him a fool, and doesnt waste her time on fools.

 

Its not until the Academy on Telos that she uncovers what Atton is hiding and then has a small amount of use for him.

 

Lastly, Kreia is passionate about Handmaiden breaking her Vow because it is betrayal, and Kreia lays out (almost at the start of game) her opinion on betrayal.

 

As I said, its an interesting theory but think you reading far to much into it and looking for proff thats just not there.

 

PS: The source is the wound in the force created at Malacor V by such grand scale slaughter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

To the first, I repeat: The Disciple lists Arren Kae as one of the Masters that trained Revan.

 

Point 2: Master Kavar is the only one who ever says Kriea was in the Mandalorian Wars. The quote is "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars...." (Lightside, the confrontation between Kriea and the council upon returning to Dantoonie)

 

Point 3: Her whole premise is she wants to destroy "The Force".

 

Point 4: Kriea won't speak to anyone very much except the Handmaiden if you are male. Atton is the only one who points it out.

 

Point 5: This is true.

 

Point 6: The particular dialog being referred to happens after the first time the Handmaiden spars with you, when she's actually training you still. She basically accuses the Exile of wanting to sleep with her, which she also does with Visas, bt in Visas case she lets it go after you deny it. In the case of the Handmaiden, you have to deny it three times before she finally shuts up about it.

[BattleCookiee]

Point 4: Kriea won't speak to anyone very much except the Handmaiden if you are male. Atton is the only one who points it out.

 

So does Visas, so does Mira... why would that be?

 

And if you are convinced that Kreia = Kae why does she do all the stalking with Disciple?

[SSgtSniper]

Point 4: Kriea won't speak to anyone very much except the Handmaiden if you are male. Atton is the only one who points it out.

 

So does Visas, so does Mira... why would that be?

 

And if you are convinced that Kreia = Kae why does she do all the stalking with Disciple?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Because he knows her. And she knows he knows.

[Bulgarian Jedi]

I don't know if this was already stated, but when I was looking at the KotOR SaveGame Editor, in the Globals and than in the Numerics there is a catergory called "000_Kreia_Hand_mom: 5." I can change that number.

What does this mean?

Does that actually proove that Kreia is the Handmaiden's mother?

 

The version of my save game editor is 3.3.3 in case it matters.

[BattleCookiee]

Because he knows her. And she knows he knows.

 

And now about the Visas/Mira part...

 

I don't know if this was already stated, but when I was looking at the KotOR SaveGame Editor, in the Globals and than in the Numerics there is a catergory called "000_Kreia_Hand_mom: 5." I can change that number.

What does this mean?

Does that actually proove that Kreia is the Handmaiden's mother?   

 

The version of my save game editor is 3.3.3 in case it matters.

 

I guess I could be wrong but that is probably based on if Kreia will tell you about Handmaiden's mother (Kae), thus allowing you to tell HM and train her to become a Jedi!

 

(Just checked an that is it... also note that Know_hand_mother=1 after Kreia_Hand_Mom= 5)

 

Hey! Look!

A numeric called Hand_Mom_PC... I think the PC will be Handmaidens mother (yes, even a male Exile) "

Edited January 9, 2006 by Battlewookiee

[Gorth]

Point 3: Her whole premise is she wants to destroy "The Force".

Wrong.

[SSgtSniper]

Because he knows her. And she knows he knows.

 

And now about the Visas/Mira part...

 

I don't know if this was already stated, but when I was looking at the KotOR SaveGame Editor, in the Globals and than in the Numerics there is a catergory called "000_Kreia_Hand_mom: 5." I can change that number.

What does this mean?

Does that actually proove that Kreia is the Handmaiden's mother?   

 

The version of my save game editor is 3.3.3 in case it matters.

 

I guess I could be wrong but that is probably based on if Kreia will tell you about Handmaiden's mother (Kae), thus allowing you to tell HM and train her to become a Jedi!

 

(Just checked an that is it... also note that Know_hand_mother=1 after Kreia_Hand_Mom= 5)

 

Hey! Look!

A numeric called Hand_Mom_PC... I think the PC will be Handmaidens mother (yes, even a male Exile) "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, BW, I was late for a class....

 

Visas/Handmaiden do argue, and eventually come to an agreement about each other. Visas doesn't directly interatc with many others, but she has chatted with Atton once (and siphoned some of his influence at the time, grrr) out in the world somewhere, I can't recall where. She also chimes in on some of the other influence markers for other people, usually without stealing influence from what I can tell.

 

Mira does interact with several of the others. Bao-Dur and her can chat once if he's already a Jedi when you get her, kind of her learning about you. She also interacts with either the Handmaiden or Atton over the "jealousy" factor at least once. (I think there can be two? with Atton, not sure.) Mira also chimes in (thankfully without stealing influence) on several influence opportunities, primarily with Disciple and Handmaiden.

 

 

The one convo I wanted to see, and was kinda disappointed when it didn't ever happen, was Mira and Canderous.

Edited January 9, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[Dyan]

Lastly, Kreia is passionate about Handmaiden breaking her Vow because it is betrayal, and Kreia lays out (almost at the start of game) her opinion on betrayal.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am, but doesn't Kreia make some comment about betrayal running in Handmaiden's blood?

[SSgtSniper]

Lastly, Kreia is passionate about Handmaiden breaking her Vow because it is betrayal, and Kreia lays out (almost at the start of game) her opinion on betrayal.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am, but doesn't Kreia make some comment about betrayal running in Handmaiden's blood?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No, but the sisters do.

[Dyan]

I knew someone made it ^_^

[Zelean]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am, but doesn't Kreia make some comment about betrayal running in Handmaiden's blood? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No, but the sisters do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, but no.

 

Both are mistaken. Brianna tells you herself.

It took me some time to find it, but here it is.

 

(Influence: Success)

 

My father broke his oaths. He shamed us all. I do not wish to follow his path... I swore not to follow his path.

...

He went to war to be with the one he loved, but not the one he had pledged himself to. He was disloyal.

...

I am the mark of that disloyalty. It is said that such things run in the blood, and I have fought long to prove that this is not so.

 

Mark that Yusanis is the betrayer not Kae for he betrayed his wife and their family.

 

Still, this does not disprove Kae = Kreia, but it doesn't support it either. It does seem interesting that with certain people it's all about "betrayal", though. With some betrayal runs in blood, while others just need to hold the knowledge of betrayal. "

[SSgtSniper]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am, but doesn't Kreia make some comment about betrayal running in Handmaiden's blood? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No, but the sisters do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, but no.

 

Both are mistaken. Brianna tells you herself.

It took me some time to find it, but here it is.

 

(Influence: Success)

 

My father broke his oaths. He shamed us all. I do not wish to follow his path... I swore not to follow his path.

...

He went to war to be with the one he loved, but not the one he had pledged himself to. He was disloyal.

...

I am the mark of that disloyalty. It is said that such things run in the blood, and I have fought long to prove that this is not so.

 

Mark that Yusanis is the betrayer not Kae for he betrayed his wife and their family.

 

Still, this does not disprove Kae = Kreia, but it doesn't support it either. It does seem interesting that with certain people it's all about "betrayal", though. With some betrayal runs in blood, while others just need to hold the knowledge of betrayal. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, buddy, but you are wrong yourself. The sisters do talk about her, and how "she shames us all".

 

"You know why- she bears the face of her mother."

 

So, I guess I was right, after all, huh?

[BattleCookiee]

"You know why- she bears the face of her mother."

 

How hard I try I cannot see Handmaiden's face and Kreia's as similar...

[Zelean]

Sorry, buddy, but you are wrong yourself. The sisters do talk about her, and how "she shames us all".

 

"You know why- she bears the face of her mother."

 

So, I guess I was right, after all, huh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldn't be so sure. Why don't you give us your quote then?

 

As far as I can remember, they don't like my questioning at all. They just go 'it is not unusual for Echani children to bear the face of their mother' with . If I press forward I get to challenge them in duel. No "shame".

 

And definitely no "betrayal", Dyan originally was wandering about. Betrayal was that of her "father" and not her "mother". She just bears her face, that's it. But it's her face that reminds others of their father's disloyalty.

 

Here I will end with a half-quote I stumbled upon, when searching for quotes in the post before.

 

{Angry at presumption}"To claim to know anything of {what lays in sisters' hearts when they look upon their sister} is conceit..."

:cool:

[Guest The Architect]

No Zelean, SSqtSniper is right. I played TSL not long ago as a DS Male Exile and I can assure you that when the half-sisters of Brianna talk about her betrayl one of them wonders why she would betray them and one of the half-sisters does indeed say "You know why-she bears the face of her mother."

 

So, if Arren Kae was a betrayer and Kreia was a betrayer, and they both did fight in the Mandalorian Wars because Master Kavar does say to Kreia 'I thougt you died in the Mandalorian Wars (LS Exile)" And they both taught Revan, and none of the masters calls Kreia by her name, and they were both exiled, then wouldn't it be suprising if they didn't turn out to be the same person and also, they never recovered Arren Kae's body so everyone only assumed that she died in the Mandalorian Wars...

[Zelean]

Oh OK, I did some more digging. I apologize, SSgtSniper, because you did in fact quoted. A bit out of context, I might add.

 

I wasn't careful on your "the sisters do talk about her" part. With a nudge from The Architect I found this scene (262-siscut1).

 

{Gameplay Programmer: Scene opens with one sister staring out at the empty hangar bay. Give it a few seconds,}

Sis 2: {Concerned}Has there been any word of her?

 

[DarkAngle]

Look, all I think Kreia is is an old, but still proud ex-jedi historian that so happened to train Revan. Yes she manipulates, yes she lies, yes she has a deadly agenda, but I don't think she is much more than that.

[SSgtSniper]

"You know why- she bears the face of her mother."

 

How hard I try I cannot see Handmaiden's face and Kreia's as similar...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

When you live years on Malachor, look as good you will not Hmmm?

Edited January 10, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[Darth_Lord_Ibbe]

Very interesting theory! I've been thinking about this as I play through the game this time. When Kreia mentions Arren Kae, how she fought in the Mandalorian wars, the Exile can say something like:

 

"Are you sure? I don't remember her."

 

Kreia mentions (in another conversation) that there is a force power that makes your presence so small, that people don't notice you, and therfore, don't remember you. She sort of hints (well, for Kreia, it is pretty much a confession ) that she was using it on the Jedi Council (and maybe on the Exil). Interesting.

 

Well, after the Exile says "are you sure, I don't remember her", Kreia answers:

 

"Revan welcomed her. She was... said to be... a great warrrior. Strong in the Force. And beautiful."

 

Now, the way Kreia says it, there is a paus right after "she was". Then she sort of adds the "said to be"-part. Just to change it from "I know this", to something more like "eh, I've heard that she was a great warrior. Yeah, somebody told me. A friend... of a friend. Yeah, that's it." This, I think, is also rather interesting.

 

And the "beautiful" part... Well, IF Kreia is (was?) Arren, you can't blame her for mentioning that she was good-looking once, long ago. Damn you, scary "no-eyes" witch...

 

Keep on speculating!

[Reajeasa]

I privately don't think that Kreia is anybodys mother, and don't really wish to get involved in this debate, but I will quote Atton while leaving Peragus on the Hawk:

 

"[Kreia] may have been good-looking once-"

And when this is combined with Kreia's line-

"Revan welcomed her. She was... said to be... a great warrrior. Strong in the Force. And beautiful." -it's quite interesting.

 

I know it doesn't prove anything, but I thought I'd point it out for argument's sake.

[Jedi Master Dakari]

I was also going to mention the exchange of words between the exile and Atton. I can add to,

"She may have been good-looking once..."

with,

"It takes some hard living to make creases like that."

 

I, at first glance, thought this to be just some comic relief. But when looked at from the whole perspective, it is a wink from the writers. And if anyone has really put any amount of thought into the game, they would readily see that Obsidian is above thowing random mess into the story just for the heck of it.

 

********************************************

 

Also... one of the biggest arguments used to derail the Kreia=Kae Theory is the manner of exile they 'both' supposedly received.

 

The argument is:

Kreia was exiled because every student she trained was viewed as a failure. Every one disobeyed the council and followed Revan to war. And her most promisingpupil became the Dark Lord.

Kae was exiled because "the shame of her birth was revealed". What you learn is that she fell in love with the Echani general, Yusanis, and became pregnant. She eventually gave birth, and was exiled from the Jedi Order. She later died in the War and no remains were ever found.

 

The biggest problem with this base argument is this.......Who told you this information?

 

KREIA!

 

********************************************

 

The part of information about Kae falling in love, and becoming pregnant by Yusanis, and dying in the Mandalorian War (with no body being found) can be learned from both Mical and Brianna as well. However, everything outside of this limited information is learned from Kreia, and Kreia alone.

 

However, something comes to mind when I think of this...

 

PC: "You have been lying to me from the very beginning."

Kreia: "Yes, from the moment you awoke..."

 

And isn't it also curious that Kae is Revan's only master noted to have fought in the Mandalorian War. Not only that, but she is also the only to be firmly noted - by name - to have died. Then, standing before the Jedi Council, Kreia was roughly greeted with, "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars"?

 

Just look at the information, and put two and two together.

Edited January 18, 2006 by Jedi Master Dakari

[SSgtSniper]

Yes! This is what I am saying. Too many bits and pieces thrown in, seemingly at random, but when viewed together, present a very possible story. That's why I came to believe as I do.

[Jedi Master Dakari]

I'm glad there are others who believe like I do.

 

I have one more thing to add though. Many argue the facts by stating, "The facts say Yes, but the community has decided No."

 

I have a HUGE problem with this. And that problem is the word community.

 

1) If the facts support this theory, then why does it need to be disputed in the first place?

 

2) Since when has the "community" ever decide what is canon (despite the evidence) and what is not?

 

StarWars - Wiki once used this as their standing argument to debunk the theory, but it has since been removed. They now only use the "grounds of exile" (Why Kae/Kreia were exiled) argument. But, as can be seen above, that argument is also faulty and unreliable.

 

Besides, I firmly believe that there are more in the "community" who support the theory than there are those who do not.

Edited January 18, 2006 by Jedi Master Dakari

[SSgtSniper]

I'm glad there are others who believe like I do.

 

I have one more thing to add though. Many argue the facts by stating, "The facts say Yes, but the community has decided No."

 

I have a HUGE problem with this. And that problem is the word community.

 

1) If the facts support this theory, then why does it need to be disputed in the first place?

 

2) Since when has the "community" ever decide what is canon (despite the evidence) and what is not?

 

StarWars - Wiki once used this as their standing argument to debunk the theory, but it has since been removed. They now only use the "grounds of exile" (Why Kae/Kreia were exiled) argument. But, as can be seen above, that argument is also faulty and unreliable.

 

Besides, I firmly believe that there are more in the "community" who support the theory than there are those who do not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And so it remains in question. The section on this subject in Wiki seems to have been written by someone sympathetic to our side of the argument. However, it is Wiki, so that'll change in a day or so I imagine.

[Jedi Master Dakari]

However, it is Wiki, so that'll change in a day or so I imagine.

 

 

I just had to go and check it out. And sure enough, it has! I wonder........

 

Even with it being wiki, it is good that no one has said for certain that she is or isn't. On sights such as that, where the community can be involved, it is always the best option to leave speculation open until some final word is given.

 

I have a firm feeling that with the release of the KotOR comics, and the future release of the inevitable KotOR3, more light will be shed on this subject. And that light with either confirm the theory, or dissprove it.

 

But until that time, what ever the canon decision is, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of the matter. But I still feel they are one-and-the-same. :ph34r:

Edited January 18, 2006 by Jedi Master Dakari