Spartans the Model for the Mandalorians?

[Sturm]

Yet alone the corpses of the thousands of Persians.

[Musopticon?]

It was certainly a very astute artistic decision to have the Spartan soldiers appear without a cuirass ...

They didn't use the cuirasses a some point of history, did they? I think it was a lot later than Persian period however.

[metadigital]

Not according to Paul Cartledge's The Spartans:

The hoplite may well have taken his name from the cardinal item of his equipment, the two-handled shield which he wore in an unalterably fixed position on his left arm, depending for coverage of his unshielded side on his neighbour to his right in the phalanx. The Greek word hopla, which certainly included the shield, was used to mean arms and armour collectively. A panoplia was a full set of hoplite kit, which would consist of large bronze helmet raised from a single sheet of metal that afforded good protection for the head but rendered the hoplite pretty deaf; a bronze or (later) leather or linen breatplate; a large round basically wooden shield, faced all over in bronze in the Spartan's case; bronze abdominal guard and greaves, and possibly also bronze and ankle- and arm-guards; a long thrusting spear of cornel wood tipped at either end with a head and butt-spike of iron; and a back-up iron sword, unusually short, more like a dagger, for the Spartans. Two further items are particularly Spartan: long hair and a bright red cloak (so important that it accompanied a Spartan hoplite in death as well as life). Effectiveness in action depended not only on sheer weight of numbers but on tight co-ordination, rigid discipline and high morale; these the Spartans ensured by constant drilling, which they were able to undertake as they could afford to maintain the only truly professional army in all Greece.

(This is a description of the Spartans in and around the Battle of Thermopyl

[Musopticon?]

That doesn't really answer my question. I've heard that there was a period when Spartan soldiers wore no body armor besides greaves and gauntlets. Is there any truth to that?

[Darth Mortis]

Off the top of my head your half right. Hoplites were the main unit of Greek Warfair, typically landowners who were expected to buy their own equipment which included the spear, heavy shield and armour. They were the Greek heavy infantry. However, I seem to recall that there were other types of Greek units who lacked such heavy equipment (they simply couldn't afford any of it). Don't ask me for further information, lol, its late as I write this and my mind is goo...ok gooier than normal

[metadigital]

That doesn't really answer my question. I've heard that there was a period when Spartan soldiers wore no body armor besides greaves and gauntlets. Is there any truth to that?

Again, not according to Mr Cartledge, who seems to be a (the most?) respected authority on Spartans. He is quite conservative about all his statements, especially when taken in comparison with some of his colleagues. I haven't read that widely, though (off the top of my head, his book, Tom Holland's Persian Fire, Russell's History of Western Philosophy, Graves' The Greek Myths, but the last two had almost no information on Spartans).

[Sturm]

That doesn't really answer my question. I've heard that there was a period when Spartan soldiers wore no body armor besides greaves and gauntlets. Is there any truth to that?

 

It is believed that they did fight without clothes, one of my teachers at school has read about the Battle of Thermopylae, and how that the Spartans did fight without any clothes, I'm personally not too sure myself about when but after looking up the Battle fo Thermopylae on Wikipedia, and it displaying one of its crazy images like usual the Spartans appear to be wearing nothing but capes. Of course Wikipedia in itself isnt reliable, and nor is the movie 300 accurate. For one thing the 300 Spartans faught to the death, to the extent when their weapons broke they used their hands and teeth to continue killing.

 

Spartan Picture

[Darth Mortis]

It is believed that they did fight without clothes, one of my teachers at school has read about the Battle of Thermopylae, and how that the Spartans did fight without any clothes,

 

That might make sense in some situations. If they were naked and oiled up it would be very difficult for an opponent to grab hold of them. (Ladies, please restrain yourselves at the mental imagies ). I know the fights that were held in the original Olympics involved the contestants stripping and oiling themselves, so they might have brought this into warfair or taken it from their battles.

 

It would also mean that clothing wouldn't be forced into a wound and cause an infection-some duelists in the 17-1800's would fight bare chested so if they were hit their clothing wasn't forced into the wound. Given that most of the wounds in a Greek era battle are likely to have been from penatrating wounds (from spears and arrows), rather than from cuts from swords this would make sense.

 

It could also be that the Spartian armies were meant to move quickly, in which case dropping some of the armour would make sense. The Hopilite/Phalanx formation was intended largely for only short distance warfair-defending homes for the most part-not for treking long distances. Spartans might have left everything but their weapons at home if they needed to be somewhere very quickly. And if that meant they were wearing no armour they might as well have got rid of the clothing before battle as it would have made little difference to the way they could fight. (The Spartans at Thermopylae might have been sent there was quickly as possible, in which case they might have left as much heavy equipment as they could at home so they could move as quickly as possible).

 

Then fighting naked could have been a way for the Spartans to show that they were not afraid of an opponent-'Look, we are so brave/powerful/fearless we don't need armour' or just a way to scare the opposition. The Celts used to fight naked as well to frighten enemies and for the warriors to show their bravery.

[Purgatorio]

It is believed that they did fight without clothes, one of my teachers at school has read about the Battle of Thermopylae, and how that the Spartans did fight without any clothes,

 

That might make sense in some situations. If they were naked and oiled up it would be very difficult for an opponent to grab hold of them. (Ladies, please restrain yourselves at the mental imagies ). I know the fights that were held in the original Olympics involved the contestants stripping and oiling themselves, so they might have brought this into warfair or taken it from their battles.

 

It would also mean that clothing wouldn't be forced into a wound and cause an infection-some duelists in the 17-1800's would fight bare chested so if they were hit their clothing wasn't forced into the wound. Given that most of the wounds in a Greek era battle are likely to have been from penatrating wounds (from spears and arrows), rather than from cuts from swords this would make sense.

 

It could also be that the Spartian armies were meant to move quickly, in which case dropping some of the armour would make sense. The Hopilite/Phalanx formation was intended largely for only short distance warfair-defending homes for the most part-not for treking long distances. Spartans might have left everything but their weapons at home if they needed to be somewhere very quickly. And if that meant they were wearing no armour they might as well have got rid of the clothing before battle as it would have made little difference to the way they could fight. (The Spartans at Thermopylae might have been sent there was quickly as possible, in which case they might have left as much heavy equipment as they could at home so they could move as quickly as possible).

 

Then fighting naked could have been a way for the Spartans to show that they were not afraid of an opponent-'Look, we are so brave/powerful/fearless we don't need armour' or just a way to scare the opposition. The Celts used to fight naked as well to frighten enemies and for the warriors to show their bravery.

 

 

But Mandalorians aren't the kind to retreat, as in dropping their armour and fleeing, they wear heavy armour, so they don't fight naked either. That is the Echani (sort of)

The only thing is the red robe that Mandalore is depicted wearing in the comic. But is that canon? *shudder*

 

The Mongols wore silk so the arrow was easier to remove.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Purgatorio

[Revan1127]

That doesn't really answer my question. I've heard that there was a period when Spartan soldiers wore no body armor besides greaves and gauntlets. Is there any truth to that?

 

 

If I rember correctly from a history channel episode they wore heavy bronze armor, not fighting shirtless. While other greek hopilites wore a different type of armor

 

Also wasnt the tesudo(srry if misspelled) not a fighting formation as the Greek Phalax was but more used to protect Roman solders from enimes archers.

 

Finally I dont belive the Romans every really fought Spartans from the city-State Spartan (like in 300) but fought the unified Greece under Macedon rule. Macedonian rule over all of Greece came under Alex the Great

Edited April 29, 2007 by Revan1127

[Darth Mortis]

Also wasnt the tesudo(srry if misspelled) not a fighting formation as the Greek Phalax was but more used to protect Roman solders from enimes archers.

 

You would be quite correct.

[Sturm]

That doesn't really answer my question. I've heard that there was a period when Spartan soldiers wore no body armor besides greaves and gauntlets. Is there any truth to that?

 

If I rember correctly from a history channel episode they wore heavy bronze armor, not fighting shirtless. While other greek hopilites wore a different type of armor

 

Also wasnt the tesudo(srry if misspelled) not a fighting formation as the Greek Phalax was but more used to protect Roman solders from enimes archers.

 

Finally I dont belive the Romans every really fought Spartans from the city-State Spartan (like in 300) but fought the unified Greece under Macedon rule. Macedonian rule over all of Greece came under Alex the Great

 

Remember, we're talking about the early Spartans around 400 BC, even earlier at this time such armour like bronze wasnt used and pretty much mass produced as with the Romans or Greeks for that matter. The Spartans usually dressed light, as wearing such heavy armour would be quite restrictive in combat and with the Phalanx formation already as it is being so restrictive it wouldnt really help. As I have said the Spartans traveled light, as most of their fighting was just to defend and they werent used as an offensive force as the Romans. The heaviest thing a Spartan would have had is probably his shield, the Spartans were fond of their large round shields and certainly defended himself and the man to the left of him well.

 

Macedon didnt rule Greece when the Romans had came, After Alexander the Greeks divided up into the Thracian empire, Macedonian, Greek and Seleucid empires.

[Musopticon?]

Ooh, I feel a new post coming. This discussion is interesting.

 

 

...later after actually spending a real birthday for once.

[Revan1127]

Macedon didnt rule Greece when the Romans had came, After Alexander the Greeks divided up into the Thracian empire, Macedonian, Greek and Seleucid empires.

 

 

What I was talkin about was Macedon controling mainland greece such as sparta, athens. I know wikipedia isnt greatest source but

 

until i get something better

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Macedon

 

The Seleucdic empire controled more of the middle east. i belive palestine was under their control

 

What you said about the spartan armor may be true like i said i think thats what the history channel said but im no expert on anceint greek armor

Edited April 30, 2007 by Revan1127

[Sturm]

Macedon didnt control Sparta at any point, but they did control Athens.

[Revan1127]

Macedon didnt control Sparta at any point, but they did control Athens.

 

 

Srry didnt mean to say sparta lol it was on my mind at the time.

[Sturm]

Dee Dubs.

 

Well for most of the time Sparta was the Capital of the Greeks, I dont think they would willingly give up their capital.

[Xard]

Nope, most of the time Athens was "capital" of Greece. Of course, they all were city states

[metadigital]

It is believed that they did fight without clothes, one of my teachers at school has read about the Battle of Thermopylae, and how that the Spartans did fight without any clothes,

That might make sense in some situations. If they were naked and oiled up it would be very difficult for an opponent to grab hold of them. (Ladies, please restrain yourselves at the mental imagies ). I know the fights that were held in the original Olympics involved the contestants stripping and oiling themselves, so they might have brought this into warfair or taken it from their battles.

 

It would also mean that clothing wouldn't be forced into a wound and cause an infection-some duelists in the 17-1800's would fight bare chested so if they were hit their clothing wasn't forced into the wound. Given that most of the wounds in a Greek era battle are likely to have been from penatrating wounds (from spears and arrows), rather than from cuts from swords this would make sense.

 

It could also be that the Spartian armies were meant to move quickly, in which case dropping some of the armour would make sense. The Hopilite/Phalanx formation was intended largely for only short distance warfair-defending homes for the most part-not for treking long distances. Spartans might have left everything but their weapons at home if they needed to be somewhere very quickly. And if that meant they were wearing no armour they might as well have got rid of the clothing before battle as it would have made little difference to the way they could fight. (The Spartans at Thermopylae might have been sent there was quickly as possible, in which case they might have left as much heavy equipment as they could at home so they could move as quickly as possible).

 

Then fighting naked could have been a way for the Spartans to show that they were not afraid of an opponent-'Look, we are so brave/powerful/fearless we don't need armour' or just a way to scare the opposition. The Celts used to fight naked as well to frighten enemies and for the warriors to show their bravery.

It is recorded that the Spartans at Thermopyl

[Sturm]

What armour? It was just robes

 

And I am sure that the 300 Spartans fighting against approximately 1,000,000 Persians would use everything to their advantage besides their training to get the upper hand, for example the whole corpse wall and it falling on the Immortals is just one way.

[metadigital]

The 300 Spartans had their acompanying Helot "squires", as well as a bunch of other Greek cities' troops: about 1700 in total, it is theorized.

[Darth Mortis]

OK, the following is taken from a book I have. Its detail on Spartans is....well poor in general as it looks at battles in a general overview rather than in detail. But this is what I can work out;

 

The Greeks adopted bronze armour around the 8th centure BC. The full outfit consisted of a helmet, cuirass covering the upper body and greaves covering the knees and shins. There would also be a spear, sword and of course the shield. This was the total outfit of the Hoplite....but it wasn't always worn this way.

 

Since Greek warfair was more about defending their homes/cities Hoplites were expected to buy their own equipment-most if not all of them were farmers most of the time, and soldiers only when needed. Not everyone would have been able to afford the whole kit-it was expensive-and to have the full outfit was very much a status symbol.

 

The Battle of Thermopyae did include 300 Hopilites under the command of the Spartan King Leonidas, but it also included one thousand plus other Greek soldiers, including skirmishers.

 

This is just a guess, but I would say that the 300 spartans were Kings own bodyguards/royal guards. In which case they would probably be wearing the full Hoplite amour. The other troops probably didn't have the full outfit, and may have used leather instead of bronze or not worn any armour at all (I would assume that they would be wearing a helmet and carrying a shield-the former would allow identification while the latter was required for a Phalanx). In this context it is very likey that some of the Greek troops were oiling up, since many of them could have lacked armour. It could also be that the Hopites were also oiling their armour up-it would make it shine more and look better, and it might also make it harder for someone to get a grip on them. They might have even believed that oiled armour deflected blows better.

[metadigital]

Spartans were the first professional fighting civilization. Their whole society revolved around combat; they didn't farm or trade (that was for the lower casts: the Helots ('Captives'), Messenians and Perioeci ('Outdwellers')). They will all have had the full amour as a minimum amount of kit.

 

The 300 referred to as the King's personal body guard, they were called Hippeis!

The Agoge lasted until the age of eighteen, when a process of selection was operated to single out those Spartans who were destined for the highest positions of an adult Spartan life

[Revan1127]

What metadigital said about the spartans are true they unlike athens and other sity states had a professional army. Other city states were kind of like the U.S. army before WWII. A group of citzens transforming themselves into a army only when needed. Almost cost us a few times war of 1812

Edited May 10, 2007 by Revan1127