See We're not religious nuts!.....

[Commissar]

I thought you were taking an attack of opportunity against the Catholic church because of Ratzinger's induction in the Hitler Youth.  I can see now that you might have genuine concerns on those lines.

 

I continue to disagree regarding the Hitler Youth experience, but not without some questions on my end.  After all, I have looked to find more about his involvement with the "nazi Mathematics professor," but there is very little real information other than Ratzinger's account of his youth.  There is some speculation to be found, but I distrust speculation in the first place and I despise speculation without significant evidence to, at the very least, build a foundation for discussion.  Until there is some compelling reason to do otherwise, I imagine I'll give Pope Benedict XVI the benefit of the doubt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not Jewish.

 

I am, however, rather opposed to national socialism.

[Cantousent]

Another area where we find agreement. Nazis are a safe group to hate. It's politically correct to despise them. I don't hate nazis, but I sure as hell don't want their policies in my country and fervently hope we don't see them in other countries either. National Socialim is a very specific idea.

 

Of course, I feel the same way about Communism. I wonder, though, if Communism got a bad rap. You know? "The Russians tried it and it didn't work? Well, if the Russians can't get something right, then no-one can!"

 

Still, being Catholic and all, I'm opposed to Communism as a concept.

 

BTW: Life is harder for Christians when our fellow pick the wrong battles. The battle over evolution is not the place we need to make a stand. First of all, even many of the Christians who bristle over the issue have mixed feelings. Many of us don't have mixed feelings at all. I think the science that is best supported by observation and evidence should be the science that children learn. Pitting religion against science in this case serves neither the children nor religion.

[LoneWolf16]

Another area where we find agreement.  Nazis are a safe group to hate.  It's politically correct to despise them.  I don't hate nazis, but I sure as hell don't want their policies in my country and fervently hope we don't see them in other countries either.  National Socialim is a very specific idea.

 

Of course, I feel the same way about Communism.  I wonder, though, if Communism got a bad rap.  You know?  "The Russians tried it and it didn't work?  Well, if the Russians can't get something right, then no-one can!"

 

Still, being Catholic and all, I'm opposed to Communism as a concept.

 

BTW:  Life is harder for Christians when our fellow pick the wrong battles.  The battle over evolution is not the place we need to make a stand.  First of all, even many of the Christians who bristle over the issue have mixed feelings.  Many of us don't have mixed feelings at all.  I think the science that is best supported by observation and evidence should be the science that children learn.  Pitting religion against science in this case serves neither the children nor religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I happen to believe that the concept of "Communism" is sound...it's just that the implementation thus far has been...lacking.

 

 

Not that I'm a commy or anything. :ph34r:

[Cantousent]

Communism calls for the eradication of all religion. I think you'd find out the answer to that age old question, "where are the legions of the Pope?" should you decide to ban Catholicism. I'm not too old to be a legionaire if comes to that.

[WITHTEETH]

Im a commie. I just don't care about the eradication of beliefs.

[taks]

I happen to believe that the concept of "Communism" is sound...it's just that the implementation thus far has been...lacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hate to tell you but communism cannot be implemented "correctly" as long as humans have free will. any and all socialist based systems suffer from an inability to curb demand, which is a byproduct of free will. capitalism curbs demand by raising prices...

 

taks

[WITHTEETH]

I happen to believe that the concept of "Communism" is sound...it's just that the implementation thus far has been...lacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hate to tell you but communism cannot be implemented "correctly" as long as humans have free will. any and all socialist based systems suffer from an inability to curb demand, which is a byproduct of free will. capitalism curbs demand by raising prices...

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea, there are many kinks in it that need to be worked out. Still, that doesn't mean it won't ever happen. Russia was hardly anything like what Marx wrote about.

Edited November 12, 2005 by WITHTEETH

[Dark Moth]

I happen to believe that the concept of "Communism" is sound...it's just that the implementation thus far has been...lacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hate to tell you but communism cannot be implemented "correctly" as long as humans have free will. any and all socialist based systems suffer from an inability to curb demand, which is a byproduct of free will. capitalism curbs demand by raising prices...

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea, there are many kinks in it that need to be worked out. Still, that doesn't mean it won't ever happen. Russia was hardly anything like what Marx wrote about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unless you count the "violent revolution" part. Personally, I find it ironic that a lot of communism's philosophies actually restrict freedom, even though Marx declared communism was needed to make men "free".

[WITHTEETH]

Unless you count the "violent revolution" part.    Personally, I find it ironic that a lot of communism's philosophies actually restrict freedom, even though Marx declared communism was needed to make men "free".

I disagree with you. Marx called for revolution yes, but not violent. It was suppose to be a natural process. Starting at capitalism then socialism and then it would work its way towards communism as the proletariat slowly woke up from submission.

This has not happened completely so how can we say it failed? Maybe we are still inching our way towards socialism?

[Dark Moth]

I disagree with you. Marx called for revolution yes, but not violent. It was suppose to be a natural process. Starting at capitalism then socialism and then it would work its way towards communism as the proletariat slowly woke up from submission.

This has not happened completely so how can we say it failed?  Maybe we are still inching our way towards socialism?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, Marx did state that he believed communism could only take place through violent revolution. He felt that the upper classes were too stubborn and greedy for revolution to happen any other way.

[WITHTEETH]

I disagree with you. Marx called for revolution yes, but not violent. It was suppose to be a natural process. Starting at capitalism then socialism and then it would work its way towards communism as the proletariat slowly woke up from submission.

This has not happened completely so how can we say it failed?  Maybe we are still inching our way towards socialism?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, Marx did state that he believed communism could only take place through violent revolution. He felt that the upper classes were too stubborn and greedy for revolution to happen any other way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats fine. I still disagree though

[Commissar]

I happen to believe that the concept of "Communism" is sound...it's just that the implementation thus far has been...lacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hate to tell you but communism cannot be implemented "correctly" as long as humans have free will. any and all socialist based systems suffer from an inability to curb demand, which is a byproduct of free will. capitalism curbs demand by raising prices...

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, more accurately, communism cannot be implemented correctly as long as people use their free will to try and better themselves at the potential expense of others.

[Akhan225]

Communism is a wonderful theory for the betterment of a society as a whole. But it is a theory and nothing more. Like comissar said, people always want to better than the guy next door, and some people will go to great lengths to achieve a higher status.

[Cantousent]

You don't understand, Communism doesn't allow for someone going to any lengths to achieve better than the guy next door, even incidently. Even if he just wants something nice for himself and his family, without regard to whether the guy next door has something better or not.

 

Communism cannot work as envisioned by Marx. We can keep trying it, but it won't work.

 

Now, it is a noble goal for folks who have more to contribute to those who have less. I contribute to charities... considerably more than my liberal friends who have a lot to say about the poor. Of course, unlike most of my liberal friends, I have lived below the poverty level. That's the poverty level as it was calculated at the time and as it is calculated now.

 

Now, if it's not enough to give to charity and to support those policies that provide for less fortunate citizens of our great country... if it is necessary to redistribute wealth... then I say, by all means, start by donating your computer to less fortunate individuals. If we are truly a global community, then I suggest donating your computer to some less fortunate person who lives in, say, Africa or South America.

 

The folks who talk about how great it would be under communism don't seem to get it. Russian Communism didn't fail because the Russians are inept. Whether the Russians are inept is a different discussion. Rather, it failed because true communism cannot work. Look at the only example of viable communism in the world today: China. It is not the Communism that Marx proposed. Indeed, it's more of a Soviet style oligarchy running a capitalist system in communist clothing.

[Diamond]

Russian Communism didn't fail because the Russians are inept.  Whether the Russians are inept is a different discussion.  Rather, it failed because true communism cannot work.

Are you saying I'm inept?

 

Anyway, it was the way it is due to a number of historical reasons.

Study history.

 

P. S. Russia never had "true" communism.

[Cantousent]

No, I'm not saying you're inept, Diamond. I'm saying that the issue of whether Russia was inept is irrelevant to the discussion. No one has had a true Communist government because such a government can only exist in fantasies. Personally, I think the Russians gave it as good a shot as anyone could, and the Soviet oligarchy was a ruthless band of thugs.

[Laozi]

Communism works, you just have to have the right people holding the guns.

[WITHTEETH]

Communism works, you just have to have the right people holding the guns.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you and Eldar are incorrect with how communism starts. Communism doesn't start by someone reading Karl Marx and saying"What a great idea, lets start it" And then grab their guns. Communism is a a process that takes time. Its the realization of the proletariat that they are being exploited. And as they realize they will vote for more social programs to benefit themselves.

 

The proletariat will realize their chains and wake up from them gradually. It doesn't just get voted in suddenly, or even started by a violent revolution. Its a gradual process of social reform untll we have comunism. It takes a great education system, and a big heart.

 

Give up hope if you like. But i will not.

 

I am a commie.

Edited November 13, 2005 by WITHTEETH

[Cantousent]

What you describe isn't true Communism, though.

 

I'm not attacking you for claiming Communism. I'm simply stating that you aren't what Marx envisioned at his hallmark Communist. Even in his model, there had to be someone making sure that there was no accumulation of wealth that didn't fall into private hands.

 

I don't give up hope on Communism. Rather, I hope Communism remains hopeless. Even a more or benevolent rise to power, as you suggest, chills the blood. We have a system that is imperfect, but it is a system that also strives for the greatest good. There will always be some people who fall through the cracks. ...But the benefits we reap in creativity and industry far outweigh the detriments. If Communism could provide the utopia it promises, then it would be a different matter.

 

You know, TEETH, I actually respect your humanism approach. I say that without rancor or irony. I'm not being sarcastic. I know we spar a lot online, but I don't have any animosity for you. I honestly don't believe that you would try to force me to give up my religion or that you suggest a violent overthrow of democracy. My arguments are based on what I understand of Communism. I realize, however, that meanings change over time, so what I see as Communism is not exactly what you intend.

 

I'll continue to disagree, but please understand that my harsh words are meant for Communism, not for other members of this board.

 

I have it on the best authority from a couple of online friends that my persona seems angry these days. If I must be angry, I'd rather be angry with the argument rather than the arguer. Frankly, I'm not mad in this thread at all. Just wanted to set it straight about the whole Communism, communist, and Russian idea.

[tarna]

Russian Communism didn't fail because the Russians are inept.  Whether the Russians are inept is a different discussion.  Rather, it failed because true communism cannot work.

Are you saying I'm inept?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya dumayou ohn skazal eta! "

[Diamond]

Ya dumayou ohn skazal eta! "

(w00t)

[julianw]

One of the preconditions for true communism is unlimited productivity so there is no need for private property. I don't see how communism could ever be completely achieved in our human society since we all have unlimited desires and luxuries aren