See We're not religious nuts!.....

[J.E. Sawyer]

Sure, but the prodigal son never became God's representative on earth.

In Luke's story of the prodigal son, the prodigal son symbolizes humanity. All of the popes come from that group. Catholics believe in Original Sin; with few exceptions, no one escapes that.

 

In order to be beatified, a person must have lived a life above any possible moral reproach; should the standards be lower for the head of the actual church?

If you think that's true, you haven't read many vitae. Many saints lived lives full of error. St. Francis and St. Augustine were particularly wayward. Saints exemplify heroic virtue, but they are still (were) human beings.

 

Similarly, the popes are also human beings. Even Catholics believe that their popes are part of the same mass of sinners that they are. Certainly the things that popes say gives the impression that they believe they are sinners.

[Commissar]

OK i do not see how this makes any sense to me. In christianity man cannot be perfect with out the help of god. In judaism it is possible, just difficult. How is this parable relevent? im lost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The parable basically goes like this: a guy has two sons. One's basically good and upright, but the other absconds with some cash off to some other city, and basically has a hell of a time. He eventually runs out of money, realizes the error of his ways, and comes home to apologize. He can't even apologize before his father is forgiving him, and holding a feast, and all sorts of other stuff. The good son gets mad, and the father explains that they should be glad that the bad son realized the error of his ways, and not needlessly punish him.

 

Illustrates the possibility of salvation despite having sinned, or some such.

[Commissar]

Sure, but the prodigal son never became God's representative on earth.

In Luke's story of the prodigal son, the prodigal son symbolizes humanity. All of the popes come from that group. Catholics believe in Original Sin; with few exceptions, no one escapes that.

 

In order to be beatified, a person must have lived a life above any possible moral reproach; should the standards be lower for the head of the actual church?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you think that's true, you haven't read many vitae. Many saints lived lives full of error. St. Francis and St. Augustine were particularly wayward. Saints exemplify heroic virtue, but they are still (were) human beings.

 

Similarly, the popes are also human beings. Even Catholics believe that their popes are part of the same mass of sinners that they are. Certainly the things that popes say gives the impression that [i[they[/i] believe they are sinners.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just taking my orders from the rulebook, man. Morally clean living and heroic virtue have to be demonstrated for a beatification to continue.

 

But you're right, I haven't read too many saints' biographies. I tend to prefer stories about pirates.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'm just taking my orders from the rulebook, man.  Morally clean living and heroic virtue have to be demonstrated for a beatification to continue.

I think what you're missing is that in Christianity, how one ends is always more important than how one began. A person can live a morally clean life after being immoral. In fact, Catholics believe that the state into which one is born is inherently immoral and tainted. You have to work up from there.

[WITHTEETH]

I'm just taking my orders from the rulebook, man.  Morally clean living and heroic virtue have to be demonstrated for a beatification to continue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think what you're missing is that in Christianity, how one ends is always more important than how one began. A person can live a morally clean life after being immoral. In fact, Catholics believe that the state into which one is born is inherently immoral and tainted. You have to work up from there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But all Christianity says it desires is faith. Perfection is impossible without gods help.

[Commissar]

I'm just taking my orders from the rulebook, man.  Morally clean living and heroic virtue have to be demonstrated for a beatification to continue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think what you're missing is that in Christianity, how one ends is always more important than how one began. A person can live a morally clean life after being immoral. In fact, Catholics believe that the state into which one is born is inherently immoral and tainted. You have to work up from there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that interpretation would conflict with the track record on recent canonizations, but I could well be wrong; none of them were pirates, so I wouldn't know.

[J.E. Sawyer]

But all Christianity says it desires is faith. Perfection is impossible without gods help.

Different branches of Christianity disagree on whether it is faith, works, or faith and works that "makes it good" in god's eyes (eye?). But they all do agree that salvation is only possible through god and that pathway to god only exists due to Christ's death.

 

I think that interpretation would conflict with the track record on recent canonizations, but I could well be wrong; none of them were pirates, so I wouldn't know.

Are you looking at people who were canonized or people who were not canonized? That is, rejected.

 

By the way "the rules" changed under John Paul II. He radically transformed the process for beatification and canonization. Among other things, he abolished the position of the promotor fidei.

[Judge Hades]

Science needs to be taught in science class. Religion has no place in public schools. Inteloligent Design is part of creationism and religion, therefore has no place in public schools. Separation of church and state needs to be maintained, period.

 

Intelligent design has its place, but in religious studies and the church. NO WHERE ELSE. Such as Darwinism has no place in a church, Intelligent Design has no place in a science class. Man, I hate christianity. Why can't people just leave each other alone and mind their own business.

[Lucius]

On the note of 'a creator', Pat Robertson does it again. :ph34r:

Edited November 12, 2005 by Lucius

[Walsingham]

Science needs to be taught in science class.  Religion has no place in public schools.  Inteloligent Design is part of creationism and religion, therefore has no place in public schools.  Separation of church and state needs to be maintained, period.

 

Intelligent design has its place, but in religious studies and the church.  NO WHERE ELSE.  Such as Darwinism has no place in a church, Intelligent Design has no place in a science class.  Man, I hate christianity.  Why can't people just leave each other alone and mind their own business.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hold on a minute. I see no reason why it shouldn't be taught in certain ways. As a form of anthropology and so that non-religious and non-christian students understand their religious colleagues. I am objecting to it being taught as equally valid on objective grounds.

[Judge Hades]

It isn't anthropoogy. It is religion based. It belongs in religious studies, no more and no less.

 

Also Pat Robertson is a nutcase and bigot.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Hades_One

[random evil guy]

actually, evolution is observed and a fact. microevolution is just mutation and macroevolution is just cumulative microevolution. same principles. creationists disagree on the latter...

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

From same site:

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

 

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world.

So we are talikng about different things. The initial point of discussion was about theory of evolution.

 

PS

I am not creationist

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

about time you got it. i tried to explain the difference in three posts now. evolution is a fact. the evolution theory is a scientific theory...

[Cantousent]

A tiny number of Jews of any age resisted, even though many of them knew exactly what was happening.  Expecting a 16-year old living in a fascist totalitarian nation to clearly comprehend the morality of what was going on around him is asking a bit much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. It's probably something of a normal human response.

 

Good to know that the leader of the Catholic church is nothing but normal, though. You wouldn't expect an exceptional man to hold such a post. Nothing of the hero...the commoners like a man of the people. Strong moral compasses are for sissies, not leaders of the faithful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The pope comes from the people. In fact, would it matter if he had murdered someone in his youth? Truly holy men who abhor violence sometimes come from lives filled with it. Look at some of the founders of Christian orders who had military backgrounds. Let's not pretend that this is anything but an opportunity for you to attack Catholicism. ...And it's not even as if you have a strong hatred of Catholicism in particular, I know. It's just that it's a religion and you have an opportunity to say something nasty about it.

 

Well, think of this, my friend, perhaps it might be a good thing that the current pope has faced some real moral dilemmas. Maybe we should be glad to have someone who has lived in the Holocaust and faced the evils of nazi Germany to have some insight into our condition.

 

As much as I hate nazis, and I doubt you despise the movement any more than I do, joining the Hitler Youth at the young age of 14 (sorry, I was wrong. By law he was forced to join at 14) like I was saying, joining the Hitler Youth at 14 does not equate to some sort of indelible moral stain, especially when you didn't have a choice.

 

It's very easy for you to pass judgment (how very religious of you by the way) on a 14 year old boy living in a fascist state.

[Cantousent]

I see JE managed to beat me to the punch. I should have waited until the end of the thread to write a response, although it occurs to me that you were born into a Jewish family, Commissar. ...At least I seem to recall something to that effect. Perhaps the pope's membership in the Hitler Youth has some personal significance to you?

 

BTW: the Father answers the older son by saying, "[m]y son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours. But now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found."

 

That. THAT is why the parable of the lost son is one of the most beloved all bible passages. It addresses the concerns of the older son who is angry that his wayward brother comes home to celebration. It says that we should not waste our time wondering why someone who was a member of the Hitler Youth is pope, but be glad that he serves the church and does good works. We cannot wait for perfection, because there will never be a human pope if we do.

[WITHTEETH]

Kansas' is now changing the science grading method. The teachers stuff each kid into a sack, throw them in the river.

 

whoever floats, passes science class!

 

[WITHTEETH]

DOVER, Pa.

Edited November 12, 2005 by WITHTEETH

[Commissar]

I see JE managed to beat me to the punch.  I should have waited until the end of the thread to write a response, although it occurs to me that you were born into a Jewish family, Commissar.  ...At least I seem to recall something to that effect.  Perhaps the pope's membership in the Hitler Youth has some personal significance to you?

 

BTW:  the Father answers the older son by saying, "[m]y son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours.  But now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found."

 

That.  THAT is why the parable of the lost son is one of the most beloved all bible passages.  It addresses the concerns of the older son who is angry that his wayward brother comes home to celebration.  It says that we should not waste our time wondering why someone who was a member of the Hitler Youth is pope, but be glad that he serves the church and does good works.  We cannot wait for perfection, because there will never be a human pope if we do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I was born into a Jewish family, making the middle name of 'Christian' highly ironic and, at times, a fun party joke.

[Cantousent]

Ah, then it wasn't just a random shot. I can undersand your irritation better now.

[Commissar]

Ah, then it wasn't just a random shot.  I can  undersand your irritation better now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you talking about?

[Sargoth]

I dont follow any religion, i belive in god.

 

I belive in doing good not only for this physical world but in the spiritual world.

 

Im one of those considered as a healer

[WITHTEETH]

I dont follow any religion, i belive in god.

 

I belive in doing good not only for this physical world but in the spiritual world.

 

Im one of those considered as a healer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shaman?

[WinterSun]

Yes, I was born into a Jewish family, making the middle name of 'Christian' highly ironic and, at times, a fun party joke.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not unlike Kristian Vikernes "

[Cantousent]

I thought you were taking an attack of opportunity against the Catholic church because of Ratzinger's induction in the Hitler Youth. I can see now that you might have genuine concerns on those lines.

 

I continue to disagree regarding the Hitler Youth experience, but not without some questions on my end. After all, I have looked to find more about his involvement with the "nazi Mathematics professor," but there is very little real information other than Ratzinger's account of his youth. There is some speculation to be found, but I distrust speculation in the first place and I despise speculation without significant evidence to, at the very least, build a foundation for discussion. Until there is some compelling reason to do otherwise, I imagine I'll give Pope Benedict XVI the benefit of the doubt.

[Judge Hades]

The question is not was he a nazi back when but is he one now. I don't particular care if the person has a history long long time ago in a nation far away. You shouldn't keep punishing someone what happened 60 years ago, especially if they have a change of heart or was coerced.

[WITHTEETH]

I agree, people always change. Hopefully they change for the better.