Bush: "We Do Not Torture"

[Commissar]

There is nothing to indicate that this sort of thing is widespread so believing them to be isolated incidents isnt naive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check out Captain Ian Fishback's comments.

 

For the record, I've never seen anything that I'd classify as mistreatment. Which is a good thing, since in the current climate it'd mean my ass if I had.

[metadigital]

Well, if we captured someone who had crucial information to preventing another 9/11...like, the planes are in the air, and he knows the flight numbers...that sort of thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm... not convinced... would you really trust what a fundamentalist nutjob said about their plans? And surely such information isn't shared with the smaller, less-nutty fundamentalists in order to prevent such information from being revealed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's McCain's argument, that torture doesn't provide accurate information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Co-incidentally it is also the British governments official policy, since it abolished torture in the eighteenth century for the same reasoning.

 

People being tortured will say anything, if you torture them for long enough. (Interestingly, France didn't ever make an official policy on torture, and it was widely implemented in Algeria when they demanded independence.)

 

There was a case recently in Germany where the miscreant who had captured a hostage and had admitted the crime was threatened with torture and it forced him to reveal the whereabouts of the victim. (Not as ethically difficult to weigh up the suffering of an innocent with the perpetrator.)

[Azarkon]

You can somewhat offset that effect by throwing in questions you know the answers to and gauging the prisoner's response wrt the level of torture. Still, it is ethically unsound and isn't guaranteed to produce the correct answer - at which point, you'll have to make the inhuman measure of how much longer you're going to torture said person before you know that he's not lying. A week? A month? Until he dies - after all, what if he's made up his mind to never reveal the truth? I hope these are not the questions that our interrogators ask, because it's a steep slippery slope between interrogation and sadism.

 

Traditional torture is useful, in the sense of political expediency, to produce guilt where it does not exist (ie witch hunts), since there the truth is what the victim is willing to confess. It is not all that useful for producing a hidden truth unless combined with certain... Psychological techniques for exploiting the unconscious.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Azarkon

[Gabrielle]

Do what ever it takes to get information but as it as said

People being tortured will say anything, if you torture them for long enough.

This is a problem so you have to be a bit more subtle about it.

[Judge Hades]

So much us being the good guys and believing in freedom, democracy, and fair treatment for all people.

[Kaftan Barlast]

BREAKING NEWS:

 

Earlier today, Vice President Cheney issued a statement, that can be seen as a fair and effective compromise

between human rights and the need to fight potential terrorism with whatever means necessary.

 

 

 

 

"We will ONLY torture about this much."

 

 

 

These news were brought to you by:

BNN- Barlast News Network

[Walsingham]

I can't commit the time to properly dig in on this. But i agree that torture is neither morally nor militarily sound.

 

However, I fear my definition of torture would not accord with that given by certain lawyers. I do not for example regard it is morally or militarily unsound to subject a person to a degree of temporary disruption that will unsettle their faculties. Hence primarily psychological. Unless one allows for this you will find very few people susceptible to interrogation on a short time scale.

 

For an excellent look inside modern interrogations, have a gander at "The Interrogator's War" by Chris Mackey.

[kumquatq3]

You Euros can't complain about torture

 

After all, you allowed the Backstreet Boys to become famous. They tried to due so over here, but we wouldn't let them.

 

They went to Europe and became too powerful to stop.

 

thanks for that

[Hildegard]

Poland, Romania, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Thailand.....God knows where else

 

I'll be waiting for your post where you pick apart these country individually for allowing this to occur

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't pick them out just that, HRW did in their report which started this issue about torture......

 

Funny how you have an issue with torturing captured enemy prisoners, but your thoughts on civilians seem to be different:

 

As for the rioters, they should be cut down effectively and immediately using riot police and national guard/army because they're nothing but savages, thugs and criminals

 

That only shows they're primitives and should be dealt with 'primitive' means (brute force) as any negotiation with them is impossible

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When those 'civilians' burn not just cars, but schools, ambulance clinics and various goverment buildings, put in danger the lives of innocent people, they deserve to be etiher deported (if they're immigrants), imprisoned and if that doesn't stop them, then bring out 'the last resort'(army) on the streets and deal with the internal threat that is endangering lives of the French people and their property - by that I mean cut down effectively and immediately

 

 

I guess blowing up a market place or a bus is better than burning a car

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never said that or meant that - so don't put words in my mouth. Nobody deserves torture - not the people your goverment is torturing and certainly not the rioters in France.

 

or maybe by "brute force" you meant 'distribution of candy'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No I didn't.

[kumquatq3]

I didn't pick them out just that, HRW did in their report which started this issue about torture......

 

I didn't say you picked them

 

I was simply suggesting, since you hate torture so much, that I expect that you would post in detail why you hate these countries for allowing in their country.

 

You know, like you did for America.

 

When those 'civilians' burn not just cars, but schools, ambulance clinics and various goverment buildings, put in danger the lives of innocent people, they deserve to be etiher deported (if they're immigrants), imprisoned and if that doesn't stop them, then bring out 'the last resort'(army) on the streets and deal with the internal threat that is endangering lives of the French people and their property - by that I mean cut down effectively and immediately

 

That is not even close to the proper usage of "cut them down"

 

but for the sake of arguement I'll buy the explanation

 

but what about this line you skipped over:

 

"That only shows they're primitives and should be dealt with 'primitive' means (brute force) as any negotiation with them is impossible"

 

what about that?

 

I never said that or meant that - so don't put words in my mouth. Nobody deserves torture - not the people your goverment is torturing and certainly not the rioters in France.

 

Just the beating of teenagers...oops, I mean "primitives"

[Hildegard]

You know, like you did for America. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll do that any time any place because the actions of your imperialistic goverment give me all the material in order to do so.

 

but what about this line you skipped over:

 

"That only shows they're primitives and should be dealt with 'primitive' means (brute force) as any negotiation with them is impossible"

 

what about that?

 

I never said that or meant that - so don't put words in my mouth. Nobody deserves torture - not the people your goverment is torturing and certainly not the rioters in France.

 

Just the beating of teenagers...oops, I mean "primitives"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did not say for the police to go out there and beat explictely teenagers, or muslims, or immigrants - I just don't use that Texas-right wing bullsh*t 'logic' or method, but target the individuals(no matter the age, nationality, religion......) who are harming France and the french people through their primitive action. Any solution for a proper way to deal with this seems to be futile, because of that the french authorities are forced to use methodes seen as 'brute force' - agressive riot police, strict jail sentences, impossed curfews in the most hazardous regions hit by the riots and I can say that the french authorities are doing a great job

[kumquatq3]

You know, like you did for America. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll do that any time any place because the actions of your imperialistic goverment give me all the material in order to do so.

 

Great!

 

But what I am saying, again, is that you prolly should post about all those other countries you listed that are allowing this torture to take place.

 

Remember: "Poland, Romania, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Thailand"? Toss is China, Russia, N. Korea, etc

 

I mean, if you don't comment about their actions, then people might not take you seriously!

 

They might think you have some kind of insane mad dog bias! I know, crazy right? But you know people and their "rational thought" and "ability to be reasonable". You just never know what they'll think.

 

I did not say for the police to go out there and beat explictely teenagers, or muslims, or immigrants

 

ooooooooooooo my bad

 

When you said:

 

"That only shows they're primitives and should be dealt with 'primitive' means (brute force) as any negotiation with them is impossible"

 

and

 

"As for the rioters, they should be cut down effectively and immediately using riot police and national guard/army because they're nothing but savages, thugs and criminals"

 

I thought you meant the rioting muslims and N.African teens. There I go, using reason again, my mistake.

 

I just don't use that Texas-right wing bullsh*t 'logic' or method, but target the individuals(no matter the age, nationality, religion......) who are harming France and the french people through their primitive action.

 

O, so the rioters arn't French people now?

 

Ok, I think I got it know:

 

French citizens = Rich white non-muslim ones

 

"primitives" = Poor muslims and N.Africans

 

solution for a proper way to deal with this seems to be futile, because of that the french authorities are forced to use methodes seen as 'brute force' - agressive riot police, strict jail sentences, impossed curfews in the most hazardous regions hit by the riots and I can say that the french authorities are doing a great job

 

Welcome to the spin zone

[Surreptishus]

Shouldnt this all be in that other thread?

[kumquatq3]

Shouldnt this all be in that other thread?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

yea, prolly, I was pointing out a bias (and/or contridiction) but it drifted

[Hildegard]

But what I am saying, again, is that you prolly should post about all those other countries you listed that are allowing this torture to take place.

 

Remember: "Poland, Romania, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Thailand"? Toss is China, Russia, N. Korea, etc

 

I mean, if you don't comment about their actions, then people might not take you seriously!

 

They might think you have some kind of insane mad dog bias!    I know, crazy right? But you know people and their "rational thought" and "ability to be reasonable". You just never know what they'll think

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

To be honest I don't care very much what they'll think. As for the reasons of the countries the HRW listed, I think many of them didn't knew what the CIA was doing or just looked the other way, or agreed for reasons the rest of us will probably never know.

So now you and people who think like you all of a sudden represent the voice of rationality and reason......sorry, didn't know you were John Locke of the modern age...talk about egoism and arrogance...

 

 

I did not say for the police to go out there and beat explictely teenagers, or muslims, or immigrants

 

ooooooooooooo my bad

 

When you said:

 

"That only shows they're primitives and should be dealt with 'primitive' means (brute force) as any negotiation with them is impossible"

 

and

 

"As for the rioters, they should be cut down effectively and immediately using riot police and national guard/army because they're nothing but savages, thugs and criminals"

 

I thought you meant the rioting muslims and N.African teens. There I go, using reason again, my mistake.

 

I just don't use that Texas-right wing bullsh*t 'logic' or method, but target the individuals(no matter the age, nationality, religion......) who are harming France and the french people through their primitive action.

 

O, so the rioters arn't French people now?

 

Ok, I think I got it know:

 

French citizens = Rich white non-muslim ones

 

"primitives" = Poor muslims and N.Africans

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh please spare us your pathetic attempts of sarcasm in an attempt to back your baseless accusations to show that I think the muslims and N.Africans are 'primitives', that the rioters are not french citizens or that only rich white non-muslims are.

If you really think I mean that then I can only understand that you have a very 'primitive' ability of deduction - but then again I really think your accusation is mostly generated by the fact that I'm anti-US too much and nothing else - not ration or reason as it's my humble opinion it doesn't go in your favour as I only said that the rioters should be dealt with hard and swift no matter who they are as they all draw just one common thing and that is primitivism which just isn't justifiable.

And you come to conclusion that I think all of french muslims/n.african are primitives <_<

Sorry but I'm not a raisist and never have been as anyone who knows me better on this forum would say so

 

I'm off to bed.....good night

[kumquatq3]

But what I am saying, again, is that you prolly should post about all those other countries you listed that are allowing this torture to take place.

 

Remember: "Poland, Romania, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Thailand"? Toss is China, Russia, N. Korea, etc

 

I mean, if you don't comment about their actions, then people might not take you seriously!

 

They might think you have some kind of insane mad dog bias!    I know, crazy right? But you know people and their "rational thought" and "ability to be reasonable". You just never know what they'll think

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

To be honest I don't care very much what they'll think. As for the reasons of the countries the HRW listed, I think many of them didn't knew what the CIA was doing or just looked the other way, or agreed for reasons the rest of us will probably never know.

So now you and people who think like you all of a sudden represent the voice of rationality and reason......sorry, didn't know you were John Locke of the modern age...talk about egoism and arrogance...

 

I hate when you prove my points about your bias for me. Takes all the joy of making a good point.

 

Oh please spare us your pathetic attempts of sarcasm in an attempt to back your baseless accusations to show that I think the muslims and N.Africans are 'primitives', that the rioters are not french citizens or that only rich white non-muslims are.

 

What would "pre-having his BS called" Hilde say about that?

 

"That only shows they're primitives and should be dealt with 'primitive' means (brute force) as any negotiation with them is impossible"

 

"who are harming France and the french people through their primitive action."

 

Seriously, stop proving my points!

 

If you really think I mean that then I can only understand that you have a very 'primitive' ability of deduction

 

Or I understand English and know when someone is backtracking on his comments

 

And you come to conclusion that I think all of french muslims/n.african are primitives 

Sorry but I'm not a raisist and never have been as anyone who knows me better on this forum would say so

 

I think you'll find that you have much less support in these forums for your beliefs than you seem to feel.

 

People might not like or agree with my views, but they think that your just irrational.

 

The difference between me and them? I like puttng your nose in it. I guess their just better that way.

Edited November 10, 2005 by kumquatq3

[Lucius]

I think the CIA is completely out of hand, you yanks need to control your intelligence agencies, they shouldn't be allowed to just roam around and pick people up as they please.

[kumquatq3]

I think the CIA is completely out of hand, you yanks need to control your intelligence agencies, they shouldn't be allowed to just roam around and pick people up as they please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, their not "picking up people as they please" or you'd be in Gitmo right now

 

As for torture, I agree, they shouldn't be. I hope this bill passes.

 

but Euro countries need a back bone and need to stop this from happening in their countries.

[Lucius]

CIA agents kidnapped some guy in Italy suspected of... whatever, Italy demands the agents extradited. (last I heard anyway)

 

And you are right, our governments need to put the foot down to stop your rampaging agency.

[kumquatq3]

CIA agents kidnapped some guy in Italy suspected of... whatever, Italy demands the agents extradited. (last I heard anyway)

 

Which isn't exactly picking up people who speak ill of the US

 

And you are right, our governments need to put the foot down to stop your rampaging agency.

 

Yes, your weak willed goverments do need to have their own priorities

[Lucius]

Which isn't exactly picking up people who speak ill of the US

I never said they got picked up because they spoke ill of the US, stop putting words in my mouth yankee.

 

Yes, your weak willed goverments do need to have their own priorities 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, something is happening alright. Folks in Europe are pretty tired of the western bullies from across the pond.

[kumquatq3]

Which isn't exactly picking up people who speak ill of the US

I never said they got picked up because they spoke ill of the US, stop putting words in my mouth yankee.

 

 

I wasn't saying that you said that, but saying they arn't picking up random people just because in response to this:

 

they shouldn't be allowed to just roam around and pick people up as they please.

 

 

Yeah, something is happening alright. Folks in Europe are pretty tired of the western bullies from across the pond.

 

If it wasn't for our culture, dollars (tourism and otherwise), and Firefly you would have taken us over by now :ph34r:

[Commissar]

Yeah, something is happening alright. Folks in Europe are pretty tired of the western bullies from across the pond. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure they are.

[Lucius]

This must be what a discussion killer looks like, I could make absolutely no sense out of your last sentence.

 

Did you have a point Commie? Or you just going right wing on me? (oh the irony)

Edited November 10, 2005 by Lucius

[kumquatq3]

This must be what a discussion killer looks like, I could make absolutely no sense out of your last sentence. 

 

Maybe a litle torture will help your understanding ::hits the red button::