Jade Empire Bombed

[Musopticon?]

Did YOU puchase Geneforce, Allan?

[jaguars4ever]

I gue$$ not.

[EnderAndrew]

Hades had his rule that games should cost $1 for each hour of gameplay they offered, while he calls a 50-60 hour RPG selling for $25 to be overpriced before even trying it.

[alanschu]

Did YOU puchase Geneforce, Allan?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd post my registration key, but I bet they wouldn't like that :D

 

 

I've only played the first one though.

[jaguars4ever]

Hades had his rule that games should cost $1 for each hour of gameplay they offered, while he calls a 50-60 hour RPG selling for $25 to be overpriced before even trying it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not just hours though Ender - game software depreciates with age. You could pickup the quality threesome of FO, FO2 & PS:T for $10-15 - for ALL of them.

 

The Genoforge's probably aren't that old (perhaps Ender or Alanschu can shed light here), but it's practically equivalent to the same thing as they're using obsolute 16-bit technology.

 

True - graphics hardly bears any correlation to a quality role playing experience, but you simply can't compete as a software developing company if selling obsolute tech at that kind of price. That's why tradition developers don't do it.

 

But Spiderweb seem to have found their forte catering to an online market niche, as opposed to the traditional industry. I'm inclined to believe Hades does have a point - even though the quality of experience may rival full price RPG's, when abandonware offers similar quality technology, $25-32 can be argued to be pushing it.

 

 

Say, someone comes up with a FO sequel based on the Wasteland engine (bless it's soul), and puts them out on the shelves for 30 odd bucks - how many folks do you think will buy it?

[EnderAndrew]

I might if the storyline is good, and the gameplay is as well.

 

It is funny that you argue that people aren't going to buy a game unless it features modern technology while at the same time the RPG Purist crowd is up in arms about how games are TOO focused on visuals, and not enough on good gameplay.

 

I am not trying to point fingers at you, but I think as a whole, we've become hypocritical in expecting great gameplay, but only looking at games with good graphics.

[alanschu]

I was thinking the same thing.

 

 

The main reason why I brought up Geneforge is that I know many people that claim that graphics are unimportant, yet have a hard time looking past the dated visuals of a game like Geneforge.

 

Technology and nice graphics DOES make a difference in our purchasing decisions, whether we like to admit it or not. In fact, I'd consider Geneforge to be an example of putting manhours into gameplay over graphics.

 

All the "RPG purists" have some notion that all that work on graphics takes away from the gameplay. Geneforge is an example of the resources being put on story and gameplay rather than graphics, and now some people say that it's overpriced because of the technology of the game. Not bad for a crowd that claims that all it cares about is gameplay and not graphics.

[jaguars4ever]

@Ender:

 

Nah - that's only Roshan. :D

 

The determining factor you speak of for us "purists" is immersion. Many modern glitzy RPG's tend to suffer from this not necessarily because of their graphics - but from poor writing, lack of character development, overuse of deus ex machina or other plot devices etc.

 

But yes, some might argue that ultra pseudo-realistic RPG's are actually counterproductive due to an uncanny valley of sorts. However, any detraction in immersion is most likely to be due to the aforementioned former rather than the latter.

[jaguars4ever]

I was thinking the same thing.

 

 

The main reason why I brought up Geneforge is that I know many people that claim that graphics are unimportant, yet have a hard time looking past the dated visuals of a game like Geneforge.

 

Technology and nice graphics DOES make a difference in our purchasing decisions, whether we like to admit it or not.  In fact, I'd consider Geneforge to be an example of putting manhours into gameplay over graphics.

 

All the "RPG purists" have some notion that all that work on graphics takes away from the gameplay.  Geneforge is an example of the resources being put on story and gameplay rather than graphics, and now some people say that it's overpriced because of the technology of the game.  Not bad for a crowd that claims that all it cares about is gameplay and not graphics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Every piece of software has market value Alanschu. You may not like it, but it's a fact. Athtough few might be willing to pay more than market value for their purchases, the majority will not.

 

If General Motors were to sell their '95 vehicles on the lot for the same price of their 2005 Mustangs it would not sell - even if it's been thoroughly serviced, upgraded, or is even faster or more luxurious than their newer models.

 

Software, just like cars, also depreciates. "Quality of experience" is a subjective concept. Market value, however is not. Old tech simply isn't worth as much as their newer counterparts. It's economics I'm afraid.

[EnderAndrew]

I would buy another Ultima VII today, even with the same 2D graphics (though hopefully supporting a higher resolution) simply because how immersive the game is, even today.

 

Yet how do you know if Geneforge is capable of immersion until you try the free demo? Yet people won't based solely on screenshots.

[alanschu]

Games are more than the value of their technology however.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say though. The Geneforge games sell for roughly half of the price of a standard game on the shelf today. What determines the market value of a video game though?

[jaguars4ever]

I would buy another Ultima VII today, even with the same 2D graphics (though hopefully supporting a higher resolution) simply because how immersive the game is, even today.

You would. Maybe I would. But the majority of the PC game market base probably wouldn't.

---

 

Yet how do youu know if Geneforge is capable of immersion until you try the free demo?  Yet people won't based solely on screenshots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're putting words in my mouth. An unusual habit of late. I never said Genoforge was not capable of immersion, nor did I pass judgement of the quality of the game based on screenshots. I merely noted the technology used and inferred the market value of said obsolute tech.

[EnderAndrew]

You talk about value, and quality of experience.

 

Yet those who purchased Geneforge generally seem to have a higher sense of satisfaction then those who paid $50 to buy the modern Bard's Tale travesty.

 

Bard's Tale featured decent graphics, good sound, quality voice actors, good writing, etc. It had all the elements for good immersion. So why did the RPG purist crowd hate it?

[jaguars4ever]

Games are more than the value of their technology however.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say though.  The Geneforge games sell for roughly half of the price of a standard game on the shelf today.  What determines the market value of a video game though?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A seller's asking price is not market value Alanschu. Only where the asking price intersects with the buying price of the market demand, one deduce the market price.

 

The fact is, Genoforge neither has a market supply or demand based in the tradition PC market, i.e. on retailer shelves, most likely because it's not capable of competing in this maket base. It caters to and online niche from it's website alone. You can buy bubble gum wrappers from people's websites for $10. That doesn't make it market value.

[jaguars4ever]

You talk about value, and quality of experience.

Yes - I'm saying value is not directly proportional to quality of experience.

 

 

Yet those who purchased Geneforge generally seem to have a higher sense of satisfaction then those who paid $50 to buy the modern Bard's Tale travesty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Irrelevant - see above: Value is not directly proportional to quality of experience.

[alanschu]

So how do you determine market value of a game then? And why is Geneforge not market value?

 

I think it's more than the technology alone, given the experience that interactive media provides.

 

And what on Earth does all this market value talk have to do with those that state that graphics are irrelevant, and only the gameplay need apply, that don't play Geneforge?

[Baley]

I like the new Bard's Tale.Cary Elwes and Tony Jay are very talented and I can easily apreciate the humour.

 

Alas the gameplay is a tad repetitive and frustrating.

[jaguars4ever]

So how do you determine market value of a game then? 

The invisible hand my friend. If Genoforge was put on retailers shelves, the value at which most sales took place - be it $49, $29, $15 or whatnot, etc. is what determines the market value.

 

In other words, what the majority of demand is willing to pay for it.

[alanschu]

Then I guess the market value of Geneforge is $25. The product directly markets to those interested in very "RPG" experiences. It hits it's target audience right on the hammer, and doesn't worry about the audiences that don't care about the game.

 

The majority of demand for a product like Geneforge is from people that want a hardcore CRPG experience (you could probably argue that ALL of the demand is for that).

 

Geneforge has been a successful franchise selling at $25 so far.

[EnderAndrew]

I agree. The value of an item is what someone is willing to pay for it, and apparently people are willing to pay $25 for Geneforge or Jeff Vogel would be out of work.

[jaguars4ever]

The majority of demand for a product like Geneforge is from people that want a hardcore CRPG experience (you could probably argue that ALL of the demand is for that).

 

Geneforge has been a successful franchise selling at $25 so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you're right - but you speak of a niche market based of a website online rather thand the actual PC Game market from retailers. For the latter Genoforge has a maket value of $0 ; as either buyers demand is not sufficient to meet Genoforge's asking price to warrant competion in this market, or Genoforge finds it financially unprofitable to sell at a price the PC game market base desires to purchase at.

 

Either scenario puts it out of the normal PC game maket base - which is why it's not there.

[jaguars4ever]

I agree.  The value of an item is what someone is willing to pay for it, and apparently people are willing to pay $25 for Geneforge or Jeff Vogel would be out of work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except for the fact that people art not willing to pick up Genofoge off the shelf for $25 OR Spider cannot afford to sell it off the shelf at $25.

 

Which is why it's not there. As such, Genoforge fails to have a normal PC market value of $25.

[alanschu]

It wouldn't have to be $0. I'm sure many people could justify buying a video game for $1 even if it's just there. Naturally this would not apply to Geneforge.

 

Most likely, he sees that the game would not sell for $50, which is likely what he'd need to sell it at to take care of retail packaging for the game. This does not make the game have $0 market value though.

 

 

but you speak of a niche market based of a website online rather thand the actual PC Game market from retailers.

 

So? His game specifically targets that niche market. In fact, the majority of successful online resellers have very limited product selection and market to specific audiences. It's easy to sell someone a product if they are specifically looking for it. It's why Overture began offering reverse lookup tools to see what people were searching for and whatnot.

 

If he was to try to get non-RPG players to play his game, then yeah it'd be more difficult. But he doesn't. He knows his market, and the games he makes appeal to his market. That's all that matters. The entire PC gaming market is NOT the market for Geneforge.

 

 

The thing is, many people claim to be in that market (i.e. the "don't care about graphics at all, just gameplay" RPG fans), that can't look past the graphics.

 

 

 

Having said that, I still don't know why this was brought up to begin with.

[jaguars4ever]

It wouldn't have to be $0.  I'm sure many people could justify buying a video game for $1 even if it's just there.  Naturally this would not apply to Geneforge.

 

Most likely, he sees that the game would not sell for $50, which is likely what he'd need to sell it at to take care of retail packaging for the game.  This does not make the game have $0 market value though.

Well, atm it doesn't have common market value as it's not on the market. If it were however, I'm sure the invisible hand would determine what it would sell at. Interestingly enough, if it were on the shelves for $1, although people would buy it at $1, that wouldn't be it's market price. For you see, Spidersoft would not be albet to affored to sell it at that price. As such, even though buyer demand is present, seller supply is not. Hence, $1 would not be the market price.

 

---

 

but you speak of a niche market based of a website online rather thand the actual PC Game market from retailers.

 

So? His game specifically targets that niche market. In fact, the majority of successful online resellers have very limited product selection and market to specific audiences. It's easy to sell someone a product if they are specifically looking for it. It's why Overture began offering reverse lookup tools to see what people were searching for and whatnot.

 

If he was to try to get non-RPG players to play his game, then yeah it'd be more difficult. But he doesn't. He knows his market, and the games he makes appeal to his market. That's all that matters. The entire PC gaming market is NOT the market for Geneforge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right - so although $25-32 may be the market value for his online niche market based of his website, it is not for the general PC game market.

 

As such, $25-32 should not be expected to be the price for the common PC game market. Given that Hades doesn't purchase games online (as thus does not participate in his online niche market), but instead buys off retail shelves, he shouldn't be expected to be charged that rate.

[alanschu]

I still fail to see how this relates to people that claim to be hardcore RPG players that don't care about graphics, yet can't look past the poor graphics of Geneforge.