Why cant someone make a real RPG?

[roshan]

I just want to rant about the general crappiness of all the rpgs out there. Why the hell cant rpgs offer multiple solutions to quests, changing dialogue and have the choices you make impact the game and its storyline? What the hell is so difficult about implementing this? So far the only rpgs Ive played that have these features are Torment and the Fallouts.

 

Recently I replayed Icewind Dale 2. It wasnt bad at all. I had a good time killing the monsters and building up my characters. In fact I got really into the game and had a great time. However, recently, I downloaded Tutu, a program that makes Baldurs Gate 1 use the BG2 engine and thus adds all the new featuires found in the game. I alsoi downloaded several mods for baldurs gate 1. At first as I wandered towards Beregost I got into the game, primarily due to noistalgia. But as I did quests I quckly got bored and decided to stop playing the game. It was simply horrible and unbearable. The character I made had no impact oin the game whatsoever. Everyone treated me the same way as if I had made any other character. I couldnt be evil because then the guards would be all over me. All the quests could only be solved using one way, and my choces abouit whether to do the quiests or not were completely meaningless to the game and its story.

 

UInlike Fallout and Torment, which I have replayed innumerable times, Baldurs Gate did not provide any sort of meaningful roleplaying opportunities. Aside from the statistics and the experience, it was basically an adventure game.

 

I just miss the old days of playing Fallout and PST, and Im longing for a new game that can provide a similar experience.

[EnderAndrew]

KOTOR, for all it's faults does offer multiple paths on quests, an evil path, etc.

[metadigital]

It's not that difficult. It does require a lot of planning in the writing stage, but for some reason that hasn't been a priority.

[jaguars4ever]

Also, try out Jade Empire.

[metadigital]

Dragon Age sounds promising, too. (I just hope Bio have read a new story since NwN ...)

[EnderAndrew]

Also, try out Jade Empire. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jade Empire was okay.

[alanschu]

It's because of the software piracy!

 

 

 

(huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge inside joke that Ender might get, and maybe some of the other old skool guys).

 

 

On a side note, leave to Roshan to state that he misses the old days of RPG gaming, while complaining about an RPG that came out before PS:T (in fact, the engine was used by Planescape: Torment).

[karka]

I just want to rant about the general crappiness of all the rpgs out there. Why the hell cant rpgs offer multiple solutions to quests, changing dialogue and have the choices you make impact the game and its storyline? What the hell is so difficult about implementing this? So far the only rpgs Ive played that have these features are Torment and the Fallouts.

 

Recently I replayed Icewind Dale 2. It wasnt bad at all. I had a good time killing the monsters and building up my characters. In fact I got really into the game and had a great time. However, recently, I downloaded Tutu, a program that makes Baldurs Gate 1 use the BG2 engine and thus adds all the new featuires found in the game. I alsoi downloaded several mods for baldurs gate 1. At first as I wandered towards Beregost I got into the game, primarily due to noistalgia. But as I did quests I quckly got bored and decided to stop playing the game. It was simply horrible and unbearable. The character I made had no impact oin the game whatsoever. Everyone treated me the same way as if I had made any other character. I couldnt be evil because then the guards would be all over me. All the quests could only be solved using one way, and my choces abouit whether to do the quiests or not were completely meaningless to the game and its story.

 

UInlike Fallout and Torment, which I have replayed innumerable times, Baldurs Gate did not provide any sort of meaningful roleplaying opportunities. Aside from the statistics and the experience, it was basically an adventure game.

 

I just miss the old days of playing Fallout and PST, and Im longing for a new game that can provide a similar experience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Try Arcanum, one of my favourite rpg title. Also, you can try Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

[SteveThaiBinh]

As Karka said, Troika's Arcanum and Bloodlines are strong in offering multiple solutions to quests, with at the very least a combat and a persuasion option. For example, getting rid of the brigands at Shrouded Hills has a combat (good) option, a persuasive (good) option, or you can do a mission for them (evil). There might be more, I can't remember.

 

Dialogue options seem rarely to allow you to express different personalities or alignments consistently; at best you get a good and evil option. Arcanum does have a fairly good and consistent 'low intelligence' set of speech options, and Bloodlines has Malkavians. I don't think most developers have many good writers, and once again I really wish developers would start employing writers as writers, and separate the job from the computer programming role. They don't mix well.

 

Kotor 2 doesn't allow you to change the fate of the galaxy because all storylines lead to the same outcome; that's because Obsidian wanted to put the focus on the character of the Exile, not the bigger picture. Unfortunately, the low production values of the ending interfere with the enjoyment of that. However, it does imitate Arcanum in that Kreia tells you of the impact your actions had on each planet you visited and on the lives of the people you met.

[Musopticon?]

Is it only me, or does it look like roshan hasn't played a whole lot of rpgs since BG?

[EnderAndrew]

I believe Tim Cain said it was possible to beat Arcanum without killing anyone. I don't know if that is really the case.

[alanschu]

Is it only me, or does it look like roshan hasn't played a whole lot of rpgs since BG?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not just you.

 

 

He's compared the entire industry to his recent experiences with Baldur's Gate, a game which is older than two games he mentioned he enjoyed in the same post (Icewind Dale 2 and Planescape: Torment).

[EnderAndrew]

Is it only me, or does it look like roshan hasn't played a whole lot of rpgs since BG?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not just you.

 

 

He's compared the entire industry to his recent experiences with Baldur's Gate, a game which is older than two games he mentioned he enjoyed in the same post (Icewind Dale 2 and Planescape: Torment).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think he is waiting for FFVII to be released.

[Guest Fishboot]

I believe Tim Cain said it was possible to beat Arcanum without killing anyone.  I don't know if that is really the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could see not killing any humans, but I think running from an ailing wolf in every random overworld encounter would probably be pretty taxing. A total pacifist build (lots of prowling, persuasion and intelligence) that uses followers only at specific times could probably manage absolutely no killing through all of the main questline but you'd be very low level. Your build would have to be so focused that you'd be unprepared for most sidequests, which would compound the XP problems.

 

Edit - and for the OP, you're looking for Codex, they're two doors down Internet Lane.

[EnderAndrew]

Fallout 2 can be beat in 20 minutes. I don't know if it is technically possible to beat Arcanum without killing anyone, but that is what Tim Cain claimed.

 

I also recall Spector claiming you only needed to kill like 2 people to beat Deus Ex.

[Musopticon?]

That Deus Ex thing is true. It's been done.

[Guest Fishboot]

Fallout 2 can be beat in 20 minutes.  I don't know if it is technically possible to beat Arcanum without killing anyone, but that is what Tim Cain claimed.

 

I also recall Spector claiming you only needed to kill like 2 people to beat Deus Ex.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hrm, I would think just one.

 

 

You can run around Gunther and Simons I believe

 

[Musopticon?]

Oh, I thought our german friend had to be terminated.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I've completed Arcanum without killing any intelligent creature.

 

Go on, tell me you're surprised.

 

The most annoying part is avoiding random encounters with the Molochean Hand and Orc Bandits. You have to save and reload a lot. Of course, you have to kill someone in the final battle, but I think that was it.

[EnderAndrew]

I've completed Arcanum without killing any intelligent creature.

 

Go on, tell me you're surprised.

 

The most annoying part is avoiding random encounters with the Molochean Hand and Orc Bandits.  You have to save and reload a lot.  Of course, you have to kill someone in the final battle, but I think that was it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought Tim Cain said you can use dialogue against the final bad guy. I haven't beat the game, so I don't know.

[alanschu]

I also recall Spector claiming you only needed to kill like 2 people to beat Deus Ex

 

I remember hearing three, but I can only think of 2 off the top of my head.

 

 

Anna Navarre and Lebedev. You could argue against Lebedev, but I believe Spector included him because no matter what, he's gonna die. Like I said, I can't think of the third one, but maybe Bob Page? I think he still dies no matter what too

.

 

And no, you can be sneaky around the German. Although it is hard to not kill him.

[Musopticon?]

About Arcanum:

You can talk your way through the void, yes.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I thought Tim Cain said you can use dialogue against the final bad guy.  I haven't beat the game, so I don't know.

You can persuade him to commit suicide, but arguably that is killing him.

[kirottu]

I don't know if it is technically possible to beat Arcanum without killing anyone, but that is what Tim Cain claimed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Timmy rules!

[Walsingham]

I've completed Arcanum without killing any intelligent creature.

 

Go on, tell me you're surprised.

 

The most annoying part is avoiding random encounters with the Molochean Hand and Orc Bandits.  You have to save and reload a lot.  Of course, you have to kill someone in the final battle, but I think that was it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You really need some kind fo special hat that says 'Giant King of Pacifism' in sparkles. Why NOT kill the fething Molochean hand? I shan't spoil their backstory, but they ain't the damn cubscouts of America. Just kill 'em, man. *

 

Arcanum was certainly good, but I have been having real trouble being evil. Much more so than BG. In fact, while I originally found BG hard to be evil in, if you persevere you find you can be thoroughly bastardular.

 

As for the difficulty, I think you'll find it is HUGELY complicating to have large scale changes wrought by you being a git.

 

 

*This made me think. If we ever do get proper AI for NPCs, will killing them be actually cruel?