Iran, North Korea get a new partner

[julianw]

If you can believe it, the Chinese government does call themselves a democratic one, which is laughable of course.

 

As I said, the source of corruption in China is that people rule over the law.

Again, this may come across as ridiculous, but the Chinese Constitution drawn in year 1949 clearly stated freedom of press, religion, and speech for all people.

[kirottu]

I found this timeline of proliferation thingy, if anyone's interested.

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Sweden was making nukes? Damn, that shows not to trust those dirty swedes evar!!!1

[SteveThaiBinh]

The system of government in China is in no way even close to what the US has, but it was designed to be a democracy. I think the biggest problem with the Chinese government is that the government is above the law, but that's slowly changing.

I'm sure what you say is accurate about how the law exists on paper. I've heard it said that Iran has the most liberal and tolerant constitution in the world. It's not an irrelevant point - it means that when a pro-democracy movement begins, as in Iran, people can claim it is not importing a foreign idea (democracy) from the West, merely putting into practice the country's own constitution. However, power still lies in the hands of the tyrants, so that as in Iran, the hardliners can subvert the rules by banning 'unsuitable' candidates from elections and disenfranchising opposition voters.

Today's leaders of China is nothing like Mao or those responsible for the Tiananmen Square Bloodshed.

While most students in today's China are fairly apathetic about politics and more focused on materialism (or so I've heard) I'm sure there are enough pro-democracy 'radicals' to stage another Tiananmen Square protest. You really don't think today's leaders would send in the tanks?

Now yes, China is not playing fair with its trades, but it has huge trade deficits with many of its neighboring countries. China does have an overall trade surplus, but if I recall correctly, China's overall trade surplus is only 10% of how much surplus it enjoys over US, so US's deficit with China can't all be blamed on China.

There's nothing wrong or immoral about having a trade surplus. It just means that China is producing more goods that the West wants than vice-versa. Neither the US nor the EU has the right to preach about free trade given their disgraceful subsidies to agriculture which keep the developing world in poverty.

To get back on topic with China's use of nuclear weapons, Chinese government swore never to use them on Taiwan and never to use them against any other country unless attacked with nuclear weapons first.

That's important and a necessary contribution to peace and stability. Unfortunately, the US has (to my knowledge) not agreed a no first strike policy for its nuclear weapons. I don't understand the reason for that at all - perhaps someone could enlighten me? Do the UK, France or Russia have a similar policy?

 

I think discussions of Chinese-US relations and China's place in the world is a reasonable thread evolution, given the potential nuclear implications if relations go disastrously wrong.

[julianw]

While most students in today's China are fairly apathetic about politics and more focused on materialism (or so I've heard) I'm sure there are enough pro-democracy 'radicals' to stage another Tiananmen Square protest.  You really don't think today's leaders would send in the tanks?

 

Unfortunately, the US has (to my knowledge) not agreed a no first strike policy for its nuclear weapons.

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1. Even though the Chinese government won't admit it openly, they knew Tiananmen Square was a great mistake. You don't send an army against defenseless students. I think if a major protest happens today, they might resort to violence if the situation escalates, but certainly not tanks (sticks more likely).

 

2. Well, the US already used nuclear weapons on civilians and can't really take that back now. Issue such a policy would only give them more embarrassment.

[EnderAndrew]

China has flown missles over Tibet and Taiwan in addition to detonating small "test" nuclear blasts in their vicinity. And don't forget East Timoor.

 

Did they learn anything from Tiananmen Square?

[Musopticon?]

I found this timeline of proliferation thingy, if anyone's interested.

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Sweden was making nukes? Damn, that shows not to trust those dirty swedes evar!!!1

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Another reason for mass genocide there.

[SteveThaiBinh]

1. Even though the Chinese government won't admit it openly, they knew Tiananmen Square was a great mistake. You don't send an army against defenseless students. I think if a major protest happens today, they might resort to violence if the situation escalates, but certainly not tanks (sticks more likely).

If the situation escalates? You mean if the students look like they might be getting public support? Or if there's an 'incident'? The British police are very good at manufacturing 'incidents' that force them to break up peaceful demonstrations violently.

2. Well, the US already used nuclear weapons on civilians and can't really take that back now. Issue such a policy would only give them more embarrassment.

It's not possible to use nuclear weapons without killing civilians - that's the nature of the weapon. If Mr. Bush announced to the world that he was changing policy so that the US would never use nuclear weapons unless such weapons were used on it, or there was evidence that such an attack was imminent (notice I said evidence, not intelligence) I would give credit where credit was due.

[Lucius]

I found this timeline of proliferation thingy, if anyone's interested.

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Sweden was making nukes? Damn, that shows not to trust those dirty swedes evar!!!1

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Another reason for mass genocide there.

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Need help?

[Lucius]

The Chinese Type 98 is supposedly rated to have similar armor effectiveness of the M1A2.

 

I would suspect most of the "tank advantage" would come from crews, not the tanks themselves.

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Indeed, the M1A2 is not the best tank in the world. That title often goes to the Russian T-90.

 

As for the Type 98, I read that it contains a lot of Leopard 2A5 parts, which is also an equal to the M1A2 if not better. Including the new laser defence technology. (if it works, can't confirm it)

[kirottu]

I found this timeline of proliferation thingy, if anyone's interested.

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Sweden was making nukes? Damn, that shows not to trust those dirty swedes evar!!!1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another reason for mass genocide there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Need help?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let

[Musopticon?]

I found this timeline of proliferation thingy, if anyone's interested.

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Sweden was making nukes? Damn, that shows not to trust those dirty swedes evar!!!1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another reason for mass genocide there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Need help?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let

[kirottu]

*quote tree snip*

 

So, it's settled then?

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Sure. I just have to recover from flu first.

[Musopticon?]

*quote tree snip*

 

So, it's settled then?

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Sure. I just have to recover from flu first.

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I ready the men, sir. Phosphorus or thermite?

[julianw]

1. Even though the Chinese government won't admit it openly, they knew Tiananmen Square was a great mistake. You don't send an army against defenseless students. I think if a major protest happens today, they might resort to violence if the situation escalates, but certainly not tanks (sticks more likely).

If the situation escalates? You mean if the students look like they might be getting public support? Or if there's an 'incident'? The British police are very good at manufacturing 'incidents' that force them to break up peaceful demonstrations violently.

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Running a country of 1.5 billion people, where 20% of them are illiterate and 70% of them are simple-minded peasants isn't exactly the same as with a country where higher education is available for almost every one (like US). If you think the western protestors can cause chaos, wait till you see 1 billion peasants rise up with their shovels.

Unstability in China can cause much turmoil, which is the reason Clinton always seeked friendship with China as he would rather see a strong and progressive China rather than a unstable and unpredictable one.

 

The people of China has the right to call for reform within the government and the government should be willing to listen. For now, neither are doing their part.

Now during Tiananman Square, the government at the time simply panicked as they have never dealt with the situation before and didn't think before they started issuing orders.

I think the government today is at least more willing to listen, especially since the new chairman is known as a moderate and climbed the ladder of power by working with the youth population.

They certainly won't grant every demand being made, but just might be able to solve the situation through peaceful means.

[kirottu]

*quote tree snip*

 

So, it's settled then?

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Sure. I just have to recover from flu first.

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I ready the men, sir. Phosphorus or thermite?

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I thought we could do it "nicely" like give him a overdose of that opium based medical painkiller, which name I can

[Musopticon?]

Wait...I can't blast things?

[kirottu]

Wait...I can't blast things?

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Hmmm, a valid point. Let

[Lucius]

I thought you Finns were more into... you know, knives. That's how the saying goes about you folks here in DK anyway. :ph34r:

[Musopticon?]

Yes, well, sharp impelemts of destruction are well and good. Be they knives or tomahawk missiles. Diversity is the key. And blast radius.

[kirottu]

*sigh* So many ways to kill people, but so little time.

[Lucius]

Yes, well, sharp impelemts of destruction are well and good. Be they knives or tomahawk missiles. Diversity is the key. And blast radius.

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Ah, but can you open up a tank hatch and knife some Russkie to death with a tomahawk missile, in a blizzard no less?

[Musopticon?]

I prefer grenades for those kinds jobs myself.

[Lucius]

I prefer grenades for those kinds jobs myself.

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They're not really sharp, though. :">

[Drakron]

China has flown missles over Tibet and Taiwan in addition to detonating small "test" nuclear blasts in their vicinity.  And don't forget East Timoor.

...

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East Timor problems was when INDONESIA invaded it in 1974, right after the portuguese revolution that started the portuguese decolonization.

 

Be careful about THAT example since the USA was quite buddy with Suarto regime , in fact Clinton visited Indonesia what some said was in exchange of a donation for Clintion re-election campain.

[Drakron]

Indeed, the M1A2 is not the best tank in the world. That title often goes to the

Russian T-90.

 

Try T-95

 

Yes, they have a new tank.

 

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2004630.asp

 

As for the Type 98, I read that it contains a lot of Leopard 2A5 parts, which is also an equal to the M1A2 if not better. Including the new laser defence technology. (if it works, can't confirm it)

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Actually the Leopard IS better but the Type 98 is really diferent from it.

 

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type98.asp