Gaza Strip

[LoneWolf16]

So...they deserve this, for taking that risk? 

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Not at all what I said. I said that the good of the many outweighs the personal preference of the few.

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I still fail to see how your memories, posessions, and your home are considered a personal preference.

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Because they chose to live in the Gaza strip. They could've gotten out months ago. They could've gotten out two years ago when Sharon started taking pullout. They stayed, and now they're getting pulled out. But it's what they chose to do.

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True, but surely they deserve at least the time necessary to pack...

[EnderAndrew]

Because they chose to live in the Gaza strip.  They could've gotten out months ago.  They could've gotten out two years ago when Sharon started taking pullout.  They stayed, and now they're getting pulled out.  But it's what they chose to do.

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Rosa Parks also refused to leave her seat.

[Commissar]

True, but surely they deserve at least the time necessary to pack...

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They had plenty of time to pack. Anyone who wanted to get out had all the time in the world to do so. The people who didn't chose to stay, to protest.

[Commissar]

Rosa Parks also refused to leave her seat.

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Apples, meet oranges.

[LoneWolf16]

True, but surely they deserve at least the time necessary to pack...

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They had plenty of time to pack. Anyone who wanted to get out had all the time in the world to do so. The people who didn't chose to stay, to protest.

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Also true. I'll pipe down now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...although it still doesn't seem right to me.

[EnderAndrew]

Rosa Parks also refused to leave her seat.

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Apples, meet oranges.

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Really? Both stood up for what they believed in via non-violent protest to what they believed was racial discrimination.

 

I love how people who defend Palestine's terrorist ways say, "they have a right because people were ripped out of their homes 50 years ago" and then turn around and say there is nothing wrong with ripping Jews out of their homes.

 

2 wrongs != right

[SteveThaiBinh]

Because they chose to live in the Gaza strip.  They could've gotten out months ago.  They could've gotten out two years ago when Sharon started taking pullout.  They stayed, and now they're getting pulled out.  But it's what they chose to do.

Most of the settlers are victims in this, too. They were sold an idea of a Greater Israel based on some very unpleasant untruths, but they seem genuinely to have believed it. Ultimately the Israeli Army is doing its duty by protecting the Israeli settlers from harm. The Israeli government has made a strategic decision to withdraw, and will no longer be able to protect the settlers. When the army has gone, what would happen to any remaining settlers? Hamas or another terrorist group would kill them. The Palestinian Authority isn't strong enough to protect them against Hamas, and the Palestinian people wouldn't want their government to spend time and energy protecting people they see as their enemies, the cause of much of their suffering. The evacuations are as much for the good of the settlers as for the common good.

 

As for the decision to withdraw from Gaza, it's probably also been made on grounds of protecting people from harm, in this case the Israeli solders who have to protect the settlements. It's certainly not done out of any respect for the 1967 borders - Mr Sharon made that perfectly clear, and there will be no withdrawal in the near future from the West Bank settlements. This is a small step forward, but there's still a long way to go.

[Commissar]

Really?  Both stood up for what they believed in via non-violent protest to what they believed was racial discrimination.

 

I love how people who defend Palestine's terrorist ways say, "they have a right because people were ripped out of their homes 50 years ago" and then turn around and say there is nothing wrong with ripping Jews out of their homes.

 

2 wrongs != right

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To my knowledge, no one in this thread has really defended Palestinian terrorism. What a lot of us have said, over and over, is that the best chance for peace in the region involves a Palestinian state. Gaza apparently needs to be a part of that state - though as I said earlier, I have no idea how that's actually going to work, since it's not physically connected with the rest of the Palestinian territory. Are they going to build a bridge or something?

 

The Israeli government agreed, and that's why the settlers were told to move on out, quite a while ago. Those that stayed are being forcibly removed, both for their own protection and for the good of the region as a whole.

[EnderAndrew]

How is this a step forward?

 

Does anyone really believe this will bolster peace?

[Laozi]

Really?  Both stood up for what they believed in via non-violent protest to what they believed was racial discrimination.

 

I love how people who defend Palestine's terrorist ways say, "they have a right because people were ripped out of their homes 50 years ago" and then turn around and say there is nothing wrong with ripping Jews out of their homes.

 

2 wrongs != right

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I think its more like this: You get a car stereo from someone who you knew stole it. Then one day the guy whos stereo it is comes buy and demands it back. You try and negotiate and such tying things for a while, but then ultimately you have to give the stereo back. More then likely no ones going to come by and just give you another one, so thats the horse you hitched your cart to

[Commissar]

How is this a step forward?

 

Does anyone really believe this will bolster peace?

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The Israeli and Palestinian governments, apparently.

 

Nobody knew that you could really sail around the world until it'd been tried.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Gaza apparently needs to be a part of that state - though as I said earlier, I have no idea how that's actually going to work, since it's not physically connected with the rest of the Palestinian territory.  Are they going to build a bridge or something?

It's unusual to have a state with two areas of territory that aren't connected, but not unprecedented. Pakistan was originally two seperate parts, before the east split off to become Bangladesh. And Kaliningrad is a small part of Russia split from the main by Poland and Lithuania.

[EnderAndrew]

I think its more like this: You get a car stereo from someone who you knew stole it. Then one day the guy whos stereo it is comes buy and demands it back. You try and negotiate and such tying things for a while, but then ultimately you have to give the stereo back. More then likely no ones going to come by and just give you another one, so thats the horse you hitched your cart to

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Why do people stick to flawed analogies that have been demonstrated as flawed?

 

ISRAEL DIDN"T STEAL THE GAZA STRIP FROM PALESTINE!

 

Israel is not returning the Gaza Strip to Egypt. These are two wrongs and this really has nothing to do with how Israel got the Gaza Strip.

 

That's flat out a bull-**** excuse and unrelated.

 

I suppose England should get to reclaim the Empire they lost after WWII. In fact, I saw we completly revert to historical borders, except instead or reverting to actual historical borders, we randomly reassign land to third parties.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Does anyone really believe this will bolster peace?

Yes, Ender, I believe it has a chance to do that. A lot depends on what happens to the Palestinian Authority in Gaza when the Israeli Army has gone. This will be the first time in decades that a portion of the Palestinian people have not been under occupation or in foreign refugee camps. Will it descend into chaos? It's a possibility. Alternatively, the Palestinian Authority will for the first time be able to get its act together, without Israeli tanks demolishing its public buildings and Israeli soldiers terrorising - yes, terrorising - its people. From the Palestinians that I've met, I'd say they are capable of coming together and coming through this, and this will work against Hamas and the other terrorist groups because the legitimate government will be able to provide the services that people need and increase its prestige.

 

There's a lot of potential for the situation to improve. However, much also depends on the Israelis not turning Gaza into a prison camp by sealing all the borders. We will see in the near future whether Sharon wants this to succeed or not.

[Laozi]

How is this a step forward?

 

Does anyone really believe this will bolster peace?

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I don't really know. It would seem that these people have already done too much to each other for that to ever happen, but memories fade and popular opinion changes. What leaves me with doubt though is how some people just carry on hating another because thats how they where raised. I look at the KKK, anti-abortion groups and groups like that, that have engaged relatively small acts of terror. To some such acts have to be acceptable or they wouldn't get carried out. There much more sever acts have been deemed acceptable by atleast a small portion of the populous. What does that mean for the future?

[Commissar]

Gaza apparently needs to be a part of that state - though as I said earlier, I have no idea how that's actually going to work, since it's not physically connected with the rest of the Palestinian territory.  Are they going to build a bridge or something?

It's unusual to have a state with two areas of territory that aren't connected, but not unprecedented. Pakistan was originally two seperate parts, before the east split off to become Bangladesh. And Kaliningrad is a small part of Russia split from the main by Poland and Lithuania.

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Yeah, I know all about Kaliningrad. Been there. That's where the little lady's from. Used to be Konigsberg.

 

But it's an illustration of some inherent problems with non-contiguous territory. If residents don't choose (or can't afford) to fly to the main part of Russia, they're obliged to get travel visas through Lithuania for the train. And the Lithuanian government can be finicky about that kind of thing if it chooses.

 

I imagine the Israeli government will be even moreso.

[EnderAndrew]

Truly fanatical and willfully ignorant people won't change their courses of action.

 

The best you can hope for I believe is education and tolerance. This conflict will never truly go away, but perhaps the scope of it will change.

[Commissar]

Anyone else notice that Reveilled's been writing a response to this thread for like an hour? I'm curious to see what kind of essay we're going to get.

[Laozi]

Why do people stick to flawed analogies that have been demonstrated as flawed?

 

ISRAEL DIDN"T STEAL THE GAZA STRIP FROM PALESTINE!

 

Israel is not returning the Gaza Strip to Egypt.  These are two wrongs and this really has nothing to do with how Israel got the Gaza Strip.

 

That's flat out a bull-**** excuse and unrelated.

 

I suppose England should get to reclaim the Empire they lost after WWII.  In fact, I saw we completly revert to historical borders, except instead or reverting to actual historical borders, we randomly reassign land to third parties.

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My point is that it wasn't theirs to take, which is pretty well undeniable true. And yes, things like this have happened before, and nothing was done about it.

[Lucius]

Gaza apparently needs to be a part of that state - though as I said earlier, I have no idea how that's actually going to work, since it's not physically connected with the rest of the Palestinian territory.  Are they going to build a bridge or something?

It's unusual to have a state with two areas of territory that aren't connected, but not unprecedented. Pakistan was originally two seperate parts, before the east split off to become Bangladesh. And Kaliningrad is a small part of Russia split from the main by Poland and Lithuania.

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Yeah, I know all about Kaliningrad. Been there. That's where the little lady's from. Used to be Konigsberg.

 

But it's an illustration of some inherent problems with non-contiguous territory. If residents don't choose (or can't afford) to fly to the main part of Russia, they're obliged to get travel visas through Lithuania for the train. And the Lithuanian government can be finicky about that kind of thing if it chooses.

 

I imagine the Israeli government will be even moreso.

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On that note, Prussia ought to be recreated imo. ^_^

[Reveilled]

I love how England is featuring in this thread as a sovereign state. Did Queen Anne find a time machine? "

 

T'would be fairly difficult for England to pressure Isreal into doing anything, since the two nations have never existed at the same time. And losing its empire in WWII would be fairly hard since it's entire Empire was transferred to Great Britain in the eighteenth century. "

[SteveThaiBinh]

ISRAEL DIDN"T STEAL THE GAZA STRIP FROM PALESTINE!

Israel stole the Gaza Strip from the Palestinians. It has denied citizenship to the Palestinians who live there, yet retained control over the territory until now. It has denied the Palestinians self-determination and freedom. It has exceeded its rights as an occupying power and tried to incorporate occupied territory into itself. It has constructed settlements on land that belonged to Palestinian people there because it chose not to recognise the legality of their land ownership. It has kept the Palestinian people in abject poverty, failing even to live up to the responsibilities of an occupying power to meet the basic human needs of the population. Israel never had any right to this land, and its conduct during the occupation only serves to prove the point. The sooner it is gone, the better.

[EnderAndrew]

My point is that it wasn't theirs to take, which is pretty well undeniable true. And yes, things like this have happened before, and nothing was done about it.

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If it was undeniable, then people in this thread wouldn't defend it, but they do.

 

What was the quote that was thrown out earlier, "truth in combat lies with the first victim."

 

In 99% of the wars of the world, people are allowed to keep what they gain in war. Israel was the defender who was attacked. The attacker lost land in the conflict, and yet you say Israel UNDENIABLY stole the land.

 

I say your opinion on this matter is UNDENIABLY close-minded.

 

I have suggested that perhaps the formation of Israel wasn't the best move. I've suggested the conflict is ugly, and that Israel isn't perfect. Yet you've been extremely close-minded in this entire thread, saying that Israelis are the real terrorists simply for being there.

 

I can not mask that your comments consistently come across as anti-semitic. I haven't seen you once be logical or objective on this matter. Your anti-Israeli stance is so absolute, I can't see where it would come from other than discimination or hatred.

[EnderAndrew]

Israel stole the Gaza Strip from the Palestinians.  It has denied citizenship to the Palestinians who live there, yet retained control over the territory until now.  It has denied the Palestinians self-determination and freedom.  It has exceeded its rights as an occupying power and tried to incorporate occupied territory into itself.  It has constructed settlements on land that belonged to Palestinian people there because it chose not to recognise the legality of their land ownership.  It has kept the Palestinian people in abject poverty, failing even to live up to the responsibilities of an occupying power to meet the basic human needs of the population.  Israel never had any right to this land, and its conduct during the occupation only serves to prove the point.  The sooner it is gone, the better.

That is simply just not true.

 

Israel has had control over the Gaza Strip since the 60's. Their stances and positions on giving Palestinians citizenship has nothing to do with the Gaza Strip in particular, but are wide branching policies on immigration and nationalization that are in response to terrorism.

 

England is dealing with the same issues right now, and most any wealthy nation with poorer nation deals with the same issues.

 

Palestine didn't own or control the Gaza Strip. Egypt did, so why is it being given to Palestine?

 

Your insistance to cling to facts that simply aren't true baffles me.

[Laozi]

Well I've already mentioned my jewish heritage, and just because I don't agree with what the government of a large group of Jewish people doesn't mean I hate the people. I'm sorry that you're so short sighted as not to be able to differentiate between the two. I don't know what else to say