Gaza Strip

[EnderAndrew]

Here is the short of it. Expect a lengthy rant from me soon.

 

I presume most people know about Palestine and Isreal and where their beef comes from.

 

Palestine completely abandoned the Gaza Strip and declared the area uninhabitable. The Isreali people come in, irrigate, build and make the place a new settlement to live, despite constant terrorism there.

 

Terrorists blow people up, murder children, and the world watches for years. In any other country in the world, we say you never buckle into the demands of terrorism. But for years and years we've all said we want peace in the middle east. To that extent the leaders of the civilized world keep telling Isreal to make concessions, and Palestine will stop supporting terrorism.

 

Isreal has been making concessions for years, and they are just caving into terrorism.

 

Seriously, I thought this was policy. We don't negotiate with terrorists.

 

Yet, again Isreal is forced to make another concession. They have to give up the Gaza Strip and hand it to Palestine. To do this, the military is going door to door, busting down doors and forcibly removing people from their homes. They lose their home, everything they own and are ripped away.

 

How is this in any way cool or justifiable?

[Child of Flame]

When the **** did this happen?

 

And what dip**** made this decision?

[EnderAndrew]

http://bloodsportthelemming.blogspot.com/

 

That is a blog of a personal friend of mine who moved back to Jersualem. She snuck pack military blockades and protested there. Read her first hand accountings.

 

And this happened on the 17th.

[EnderAndrew]

When the **** did this happen? 

 

And what dip**** made this decision?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sharon, the Prime Minister of Isreal made this decision, pressured by the US and England. Muslims supposedly hate the US for our horribly pro-Isreal policy, but we give money to both Palestine and Isreal, and we constantly tell Isreal to make concessions to the Palestineans.

 

How can Bush and Blair say never cave into terrorists and tell Isreal to cave into terrorists?

 

Honestly, we treat Isreal differently than any other nation when it comes to terrorism. When you single out one person, race or nation, and treat them differently, that counts as discrimiantion. I think the world allows this to happen because of anti-semitism.

[Child of Flame]

They're Jews.

 

Nobody cares. "

 

Also, if you believe in Biblical prophecy, anti-semitism is eternal.

 

Edit: I realize this could be seen as flamebait, it is most assuredly not. I have Jewish inlaws who I'm going to see in a couple hours. They are very nice, though stereotypically rich.

[Commissar]

That's not really the way it went, Ender.

 

The Strip was occupied by Egypt until Israel captured it - yes, captured it - in the Six-Day War. Previous to its occupation by Egyptian and Israeli forces, it was the British mandate of Palestine, which was dissolved shortly before the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, as part of actually making the state of Israel.

 

The Gaza Strip is 99.4% Palestinian in population. Why shouldn't Palestinians get authority over the whole thing? Palestinians view it as their land; they've been fighting for it basically since it was taken from them, and they haven't shown any signs of stopping that fight. Fifty-odd years. You think maybe it just so happened that Israel got the message that it couldn't win and decided to pull out?

 

Besides, holding onto Gaza and other Palestinian territories kind of makes Israel a little nervous, I think. Why? Well, when you add up the respective populations, it gives Israel more Arabs than Jews, and that never was really the intention of Israel, now was it?

 

As far as terrorism goes...the whole 'terrorism' argument always makes me chuckle. We honestly expect them to stand up and fight 'fair'. They'd lose such a conflict...why would they do it? Terrorists by their very nature don't have conventional armies. "Oh, but they shouldn't hit civilian targets." No, they shouldn't, but neither should the Israeli military, which has happened plenty. Both sides are guilty in that regard.

 

And finally, to address the point of the settlers being removed, well...welcome to government! That happens right here in America, you know, just because a city decides that a certain neighborhood would be better put to use as something other than residential housing. The government can move people if it wants to, here and in Israel.

[Laozi]

I have to agree with Comminssar on this one.

 

The Jewish people don't belong there, they're invaders, and to me that makes them the terrorist.

 

Besides anyway, oneday it will all be a parking lot

[Musopticon?]

Or a glass desert.

[Commissar]

I have to agree with Comminssar on this one.

 

The Jewish people don't belong there, they're invaders, and to me that makes them the terrorist.

 

Besides anyway, oneday it will all be a parking lot

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's not what I said, though.

 

I said that the Israelis don't belong in Gaza, for sure. I don't consider them terrorists, and I certainly think they have a right to their own state. By the same token, I think the Palestinians do, too.

 

I have no idea how they're actually going to work Gaza into a greater Palestine, though. It's kind of...disconnected, and stuff.

[EnderAndrew]

That's not really the way it went, Ender.

I didn't mention how Isreal initially acquired the Gaza Strip, but the reason Iseal is able to colonize it now is due to the fact Palistine has largely been abandoning the area. They want it back now that homes have been built, and new irrigation has been put in.

The Strip was occupied by Egypt until Israel captured it - yes, captured it - in the Six-Day War.  Previous to its occupation by Egyptian and Israeli forces, it was the British mandate of Palestine, which was dissolved shortly before the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, as part of actually making the state of Israel.

How many times has Isreal been attacked? How often have measures been put before the UAE to unite all Arab nations to declare war on Isreal at once?

 

Both Saddam and Osama bin Laden list in their public manifestos they want all Arab nations to unite and declare war on Isreal. For those who care, or even might find it in any way ironic, that the Bible also mentions this as one of the last signs of the apocalypse. When all of Isreal's neighbors do unite to attack Isreal, the end is supposedly nigh.

The Gaza Strip is 99.4% Palestinian in population.  Why shouldn't Palestinians get authority over the whole thing?  Palestinians view it as their land; they've been fighting for it basically since it was taken from them, and they haven't shown any signs of stopping that fight.  Fifty-odd years.  You think maybe it just so happened that Israel got the message that it couldn't win and decided to pull out?

I know people living in the area. Many of the Palestinians abandoned their homes a long time ago. You seem to have really old info.

 

As far as who owns the land, both Isreal and Palestine have historical claims to the land. That gives them both the same arguement and rights. The UN said to split the land. Palestine refuses to abide by the UN's decision to split the land, and yet Isreal does.

 

Palestine practices terrorism and murders innocent civilians. They have often bombed and targetted young children. The UN supposedly has a policy of not dealing with terrorists, except they do. From a pure legal perspective, Isreal has a right to that land.

Besides, holding onto Gaza and other Palestinian territories kind of makes Israel a little nervous, I think.  Why?  Well, when you add up the respective populations, it gives Israel more Arabs than Jews, and that never was really the intention of Israel, now was it?

Have you ever spoken to a settler who actually lives in the area? I think your assumptions are a bit off. Try to talking to them.

As far as terrorism goes...the whole 'terrorism' argument always makes me chuckle.  We honestly expect them to stand up and fight 'fair'.  They'd lose such a conflict...why would they do it?  Terrorists by their very nature don't have conventional armies.  "Oh, but they shouldn't hit civilian targets."  No, they shouldn't, but neither should the Israeli military, which has happened plenty.  Both sides are guilty in that regard.

There is ZERO DEFENSE for murdering innocent civilians. Let me repeat that. There is ZERO DEFENSE for murdering innocent civilians.

 

We operate in society on various social contracts. We have an international govering body (which may be a complete mockery) which we can turn to. If Palestine didn't like the UN's decision on forming Isreal, then they should deal with the UN.

 

Palestinian clerics have gone on record saying they wish to see every last Isreali man and woman dead. On 9/11 we saw images of Palestinian's dancing in the streets saying "God loves us because he kills the Americans."

 

In this situation the outside world is using diplomacy, patience and politics to deal with a group of people that seemlingly are fanatics. Logic doesn't work with fanatics. Palestine doesn't want to share. They don't want to behave.

 

People were holding up signs of "Jerusalem Next" during the forcible eviction of Gaza Strip residents.

 

Palestine's beef is that when Isreal was initially formed that they refused to abide by the agreement and were forced out of their homes. So two wrongs make a right?

 

As it stands, the UN and the world say Isreal and Palestine must share land.

 

As it stands, Palestine has been using terrorism for years and the world doesn't care.

 

As it stands, Isreal is forced into one concession after another.

 

And you defend the position of terrorism. Tsk, tsk.

And finally, to address the point of the settlers being removed, well...welcome to government!  That happens right here in America, you know, just because a city decides that a certain neighborhood would be better put to use as something other than residential housing.  The government can move people if it wants to, here and in Israel.

What are you talking about, eminent domain?

 

That is where your home is sold, you are given the money and given time to move. Soldiers going door to door and dragging people away kicking and screaming is another thing. Those people have nothing.

[Child of Flame]

Thoughts of the apocalypse gives me the warm fuzzies.

 

<plays The Merry Minuet in honor of this thread>

[EnderAndrew]

I have to agree with Comminssar on this one.

 

The Jewish people don't belong there, they're invaders, and to me that makes them the terrorist.

 

Besides anyway, oneday it will all be a parking lot

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They invaded? When?

 

Last I checked, they were the victims of genocide who had their homes removed and no longer had any place to live. Where would you stick them? What would you do with them?

 

They have as much historical claim to Isreal as anyone and they had no other place to live. They didn't invade. The UN said that was their home.

 

And appararently you also want to go on the record saying killing innocent children is a justifiable response in your opinion.

 

I think that is utterly dispicable.

[Laozi]

Both Saddam and Osama bin Laden list in their public manifestos they want all Arab nations to unite and declare war on Isreal.  For those who care, or even might find it in any way ironic, that the Bible also mentions this as one of the last signs of the apocalypse.  When all of Isreal's neighbors do unite to attack Isreal, the end is supposedly nigh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The apocalypse? Thats soooooooooo 1997.

 

Isn't there also something about sacrificing a red cow or something, and when the hill in Jerusalem, the Temple Mount, has 4 Synagogues(sp?) and no mosk(sp?) (which there's one now)

[EnderAndrew]

I said supposedly. I didn't state the apocalypse would occur. I said that's what the Bible states. Some people might find that fact relevant or interesting in attempting to understand motivations in the issue.

 

If you think religious beliefs regarding the area have no relevance, then you don't understand the situation at all.

[Laozi]

[They invaded?  When?

 

Last I checked, they were the victims of genocide who had their homes removed and no longer had any place to live.  Where would you stick them?  What would you do with them?

 

They have as much historical claim to Isreal as anyone and they had no other place to live.  They didn't invade.  The UN said that was their home.

 

And appararently you also want to go on the record saying killing innocent children is a justifiable response in your opinion.

 

I think that is utterly dispicable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm sorry for the plight of the jewish people, but I really don't know how that gives them the right to attack the third world with a very modern and systematic war machine. The U.N.'s decision was a bad one, made at a time when any such decision would have been extremely difficult. People who are desperate to stop an invading force will do desperate things, but a child killed by a tank is no better off then one killed by a suicide bomber.

[LoneWolf16]

...but a child killed by a tank is no better off then one killed by a suicide bomber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A very, very good point.

[Laozi]

I said supposedly.  I didn't state the apocalypse would occur.  I said that's what the Bible states.  Some people might find that fact relevant or interesting in attempting to understand motivations in the issue.

 

If you think religious beliefs regarding the area have no relevance, then you don't understand the situation at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well I know enough about it to say that christian belief probaly holds little interest to jewish and muslim parties

[EnderAndrew]

I'm sorry for the plight of the jewish people, but I really don't know how that gives them the right to attack the third world with a very modern and systematic war machine. The U.N.'s decision was a bad one, made at a time when any such decision would have been extremely difficult. People who are desperate to stop an invading force will do desperate things, but a child killed by a tank is no better off then one killed by a suicide bomber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They didn't attack or invade to move into Isreal.

 

The UN gave them a free pass and they moved in. They have attacked Palestinian government targets only in retaliation to terrorism.

 

So the Palestinians are okay killing innocent civilians. You are down with that.

 

But the Isreali people can't retaliate by attacking government targets because they have more money and better technology?

 

By your logic, we shouldn't punish the terrorists of 9/11 because we have better technology. We should ignore the murder of thousands of innocent victims.

 

That's great.

 

That my friend is a corner. Keep backing into it.

[LoneWolf16]

I'm sorry for the plight of the jewish people, but I really don't know how that gives them the right to attack the third world with a very modern and systematic war machine. The U.N.'s decision was a bad one, made at a time when any such decision would have been extremely difficult. People who are desperate to stop an invading force will do desperate things, but a child killed by a tank is no better off then one killed by a suicide bomber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They didn't attack or invade to move into Isreal.

 

The UN gave them a free pass and they moved in. They have attacked Palestinian government targets only in retaliation to terrorism.

 

So the Palestinians are okay killing innocent civilians. You are down with that.

 

But the Isreali people can't retaliate by attacking government targets because they have more money and better technology?

 

By your logic, we shouldn't punish the terrorists of 9/11 because we have better technology. We should ignore the murder of thousands of innocent victims.

 

That's great.

 

That my friend is a corner. Keep backing into it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you may be putting words in his mouth...

[EnderAndrew]

...but a child killed by a tank is no better off then one killed by a suicide bomber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A very, very good point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Name one instance where an Isreali tank targetted a child.

 

I dare you.

 

I'll eat my words shamefully when you find it, except for the fact it never happened. Isreali targets government targets. Palestine targets civilians. Therein lies the difference in their tactics.

 

Edit: And when did I put words in his mouth?

 

He said Isreali doesn't have a right to attack the third world. They haven't. They didn't invade Palestine and take land, though he insists they did. The only time their military has interacted with Palestine was after Isreal had a legal right granted by the UN to be there, after they were moved in, and after Palestine attacked Isreal with terrorism.

[LoneWolf16]

...but a child killed by a tank is no better off then one killed by a suicide bomber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A very, very good point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Name one instance where an Isreali tank targetted a child.

 

I dare you.

 

I'll eat my words shamefully when you find it, except for the fact it never happened. Isreali targets government targets. Palestine targets civilians. Therein lies the difference in their tactics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I meant it generally, as it was rather thought provoking to me...

 

Edit: I don't believe I saw him mention anything about the morality of the Palestinian's acts.

 

Second Edit: I think I'd be better off shutting up now, until I know what in the hell I'm talking about, and get a better idea of where people stand.

[EnderAndrew]

He said Isreal was the terrorist, and not Palestine. He was justifying their act by criminalizing Isreal with both of his comments, including the tank one.

 

He either is rather biased against Isreal (perhaps due to anti-semitism) or is uninformed and thinks Isreal actually kills kids.

[EnderAndrew]

Let me be clear then on my opinion. The decision of the UN was contraversial. I'm not sure there was a right answer. After WW2 the Isreali people had no home. Anywhere you stuck them, the home country could be upset that they are forced to make room.

 

Again, there is possibly no right answer there. Isreal seemed the natural place, as that is their historic homeland. The place isn't overpopulated.

 

The Isreali people seem willing to share and abide by the UN's wishes. I'm sure they have religious fundamentalists who aren't too happy sharing Jerusalem with Christians and Muslims, but they do it.

 

The Palestinians refuse to share. They act as a petulant child and yet we treat them as an adult and expect them to react like an adult.

[Laozi]

One, the U.N., they're not the greatest thing ever.

 

Two ISRAEL

 

Three, the Jewish people or atleast their military has killed alot of people, at their home, some while eating, some because they threw rocks.

 

Four, During Sept. 11 why didn't the terrorist attack, you know places like shopping malls, and baseball stadiums? Why did they choose the Penagon, and the WTC? Were they just trying to kill as many americans as possible? Probaly not, they where pretty stategic places to hit, much like a military might do. Much like our military has done, and there has been some collateral damage in their actions too. So does the family and country of the people who were killed at a wedding accidently by the U.S. have the right to invade the U.S., kill everyone whos in the military or take them prisoner and hold them for as long as they want, and then invade canada, basically because they're white too?

 

And then now at the end I need a real zinger. How about I call you racist?

[LoneWolf16]

Looking back, I meant my "putting words in his mouth" comment, in reference to the "So the Palestinians are okay killing innocent civilians. You are down with that." comment.