But the #1 reason that CRPGs aren't dying...

[metadigital]

Some indie-developers put out titles that are loved, but look amateurish due to lack of art resources.  See Spiderweb Software for instance.

 

Some indie-developers however are putting out really impressive stuff.  There are also Morrowind mods more impressive than what Bethesda put out.

 

I'm thinking of putting together an article on that as my first big article for RPGDot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yah! Ender writes again! (w00t)

Yes.. I am aware of the Geneforge series.. But Spiderweb Software is the only indie-developer I have ever heard of. Where are all the other ones?

 

I just didn't think that independent developers were that much of a factor in the grand scheme of things...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

3D Relms were an indie developer, before Duke Nukem took off.

[Volourn]

"What about Oblivion?"

 

I only bothered to list 3, and I chose the ones I actually might buy at full price.

[metadigital]

Some indie-developers put out titles that are loved, but look amateurish due to lack of art resources.  See Spiderweb Software for instance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed, paint me surprised that a game with graphics like these got an 80% from PCGamer. I may have to check it (or its successor) out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wow, I might just grab that one! Cheers.

[metadigital]

So not saying it *will* 100% happen.. But knowing that it is indeed a trivial factor, why are some of you using the "indie developer" argument as if a viable solution to a hypothetical computer RPG apocalypse?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because while there is one indie developer out there, then the RPG will not become a watered-down, shallow, bland JRPG-hybrid mess.

 

Because the biggest advantage of the indie developer is that they are motivated by a desire for the game, not for some company bottom line. So they will hold up the mirror to the industry, and not let the big corporations dictate that boring RPGs are all okay because the consumers have no choice.

So none of you have any reason that can discount the possibility..

 

Besides... "Nah. It just won't.. OKAYS?." I didn't think any of you did.

 

And all of your responses are in regard to things looking up "NOW." Yes, they are making DA and NWN2 and things look "bright" right *now*.. And everybody seems to think that big developers designing both console and computer games to be such a good thing. But the question is: Is it really a good thing? Not now, but in the *long run?*

 

I admit to not having a definite answer either to the question and fishboot hit the nail on the head that the lanscape is just too fluid to make predictions either way..  But am I the only one that sees this new trend of developers like Bioware and Obsidian trying to appeal to both console and computer RPG gamers to be.. well.. kinda odd?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Console RPGs have been around for quite a while and have been selling well for quite a while.  They aren't exactly a brand new trend.  I don't see either CRPGs or console RPGs disappearing anytime soon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[alanschu]

How does this prevent the possibility that console RPGs could help bring the downfall of computer RPGs?

 

 

Because as long as there's demand for CRPGS, there will be CRPGS....from the big companies too. It would be dumb, as a game developer that makes RPGS, to completely ignore a part of the market, especially if there is supposedly no other games aimed at that market. There'd be no competition for it. However, other developers aren't going to let that first company get the whole market, so they'll make games for it too, and so on.

 

 

As for indie development, online distribution is making it more and more viable. Stardock has a few games that it distributes (not necessarily RPGs though), and I wouldn't be surprised to see smaller developers utilize Steam to distribute their games as well.

[GhostofAnakin]

But am I the only one that sees this new trend of developers like Bioware and Obsidian trying to appeal to both console and computer RPG gamers to be.. well.. kinda odd?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. As illustrated in my posts early on in this thread. But to summarize, because I don't see it as evidence that PC RPGs will become a thing of the past.

[Yst]

3D Relms were an indie developer, before Duke Nukem took off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well not quite. Apogee was a pretty prolific shareware platformer developer and publisher before it introduced the 3D Realms brand which catapulted it into the FPS era as a leading competitor.

[metadigital]

Yeah, I was trying to wrack my brains as to the others: what about Carmack & Co? And Gearbox?

 

The point I was trying to make is that it's a lot like a lottery win: the indie developers who strike the vein become gaming institutions in their own right ...

[Dhruin]

And knowing that indie- devs are such a trivial factor in the computer RPG industry.. again.. How does this prevent the possibility that console RPGs could help bring the downfall of computer RPGs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It obviously depends on the definition of "downfall" that you use. With online distribution options increasing and maturing, it seems likely to many of us that the "indie" segment will have a chance to flourish in the future. They won't sell anything like the numbers of a retail console release but if they can make more profit per unit through more direct distribution (because retail sales only return a couple of dollars per unit to developers and then only after the publisher has made their break-even), the production values will improve and players will pay more attention.

 

If you've only ever heard of Spiderweb, that's really only because you haven't really gone looking, right? I have spent much of this year playing games like Mount&Blade, FATE, Geneforge 3 and some Euro releases like Space Rangers 2.

[GhostofAnakin]

and some Euro releases like Space Rangers 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is that only a Euro release? I saw previews for that game and was interested but never saw anything about it over here.

[Dhruin]

It has been released in Russia and the UK (not exactly "Euro" but that will do ). GoGamer imports it in the US.

[karka]

You can check this site out:

Indiegamescon

 

And for another indie developer, just click the links:

 

http://www.crosscutgames.com/

http://www.crosscutgames.com/ddfaq.html

 

And an indie developer from my country:

 

http://www.taleworlds.com/

[metadigital]

Mark II

 

 

... These were people just as hardcore, in their way, as I was

[metadigital]

John Carmack on the future of the gaming industry, during his traditional extemporaneous speech, at the recent Quakecon 2005.

 

Carmack, Quakecon 2005

 

...

Here Carmack heaped praise on the decisions that Microsoft has made with the Xbox 360. "It's the best development environment I've seen on a console," he says. Microsoft has taken a very developer-centric approach, creating a system that's both powerful but easy to code for. This is in contrast to Nintendo, Sony, and (formerly) Sega, who generally focused on the hardware.

 

Carmack ruminated on how throughout history consoles have swung back and forth between providing high-end hardware or development tools. Until the PS1 came out, nearly everything was done at the register level, but Sony's first console shipped with tools to help speed the development process. This was in opposition to the Sega Saturn, which was very powerful but nearly impossible to efficiently code for. Then, with the release of the PS2, Sony flip-flopped: the PS2 had much more complicated hardware and you basically had to program it at the low level again. Then along came the Xbox, which didn't have low-level access but was way easier to program.

 

Carmack looks forward to what's coming up. "It'll be real interesting to see how this next generation pans out," he said. This time around, the Xbox 360 is coming out sooner and is easier to program; will it be enough to supplant Sony's market lead?

...

Sony's position seems to be similar to the company's stance with the PS2: Sure, it'll be hard, but the really good developers will suck it up and figure it out. But Carmack wonders aloud: wouldn't it have been better to use multi-threaded processors to begin with?

...

Multiple Processors for AI or Physics

 

Proponents of faster and faster processors sometimes argue that now that graphics are reaching their 'peak,' extra processing power can be dedicated to calculation-intensive physics or Artificial Intelligence. (Carmack relates how an Engineer at IBM told him that graphics were basically "done.") Carmack disagrees, seeing that graphics still have a long way to go. "We'd like to be doing Lord-of-the-Rings type rendering in real-time," he states. That's still an order of magnitude more than what's possible with current machines, and Carmack is looking forward to it.

 

That aside, Carmack spent a few minutes talking about Artificial Intelligence as something that can be offloaded to another processor for a cutting-edge game. Carmack is skeptical. AI is a very bleeding-edge science, and it can often be processor intensive, but when applied to games AI is usually a matter of scripting. What game designers want is a way to act as the 'director,' telling enemy and friendly characters where to stand and what to do. This doesn't take a ton of processing power.

 

Moreover, even if you did throw tons of resources toward the AI, it might not be the best thing for gameplay. For instance, writing tons and tons of code to enable monsters to hide in the shadows and sneak around behind the player would be interesting, but often these types of things could be scripted for a fraction of the effort and - for most players - the experience would be just as cool if not cooler. Carmack recounts how players of the original DOOM would think that the monsters were doing all sorts of scheming and plotting and ambushing when, in truth, they were just using the equivalent of one page of C code and running the most basic of scripts.

...

Open vs. Closed Console Platforms

 

Carmack's talk changed gears at this point, starting with an aside about Sony. Although he raves about the Xbox 360 development tools, Carmack noted that Sony is making noise about making the PS3 a more open platform. As a big proponent of open source and - well, open anything - the programmer is excited to see if this goes anywhere. His biggest pet peeve with the console market is how closed off it is: you have to apply to be a developer and get a special development kit and get product approval from the hardware manufacturer, etc. (As opposed to the PC market, where anyone can develop and game creators can release content updates, point releases, and so on.) That's just the nature of the market. If the PS3 opens up, it'll be more like the old Commodore Amiga, a platform anyone can use for a variety of applications. Certainly Microsoft will never do this with the Xbox product line, but Carmack is holding out hope that Sony could experiment.

 

Following that train of thought, Carmack asked how many people in the room had HDTVs at home. (I was surprised at how few people raised their hands - from where I sat it looked like less than a quarter of the audience. And these guys are hardcore!) Carmack pointed out that any sort of plan for using a console or set-top box as a computing device really requires the high resolution of an HDTV or computer monitor to be effective. Bringing the topic around full circle, he pointed out that Microsoft may enact a policy of requiring all Xbox 360 games to be rendered at HDTV resolutions, regardless of whether or not that decision helps with the design of the game. He says that some marketing person probably made that decision, another thing that bothers him about the console industry.

...

Open Source, Modding, and Innovation

 

Carmack is aware of the difficulties for new programmers who want to get into the business: it's a long way from staring at a blank page in a compiler to having Doom 3. What can be done? Over the past several years Carmack has done his part by releasing the source codes to his previous game engines. Which led up to a big announcement:

 

Sometime over the next week or so, the Quake 3 source engine will be released under the GPL license. Since Q3 is still a viable development platform, the community should learn a lot from tearing into it. Carmack notes that the Punkbuster code has been removed so he hopes that cheating won't be a huge problem.

 

Carmack thinks that innovation in the game industry, since it won't often come from large professional development houses, will likely come from the modification or open source communities. There, people can try random ideas to see what works. Example? Counter-Strike, one of the most popular games played online today, which started out as a handful of mod-makers trying to make something fun.

The GPL license will allow people to take the Quake 3 engine and even go so far as to release a commercial product with it - provided that the source code is published alongside. Nobody has done this with any of the Quake engine games yet, but he hopes to see it happen someday.

 

As an aside, he noted that most companies are too secretive with their source code. "It's not about the magic in the source code," he says, it's about the tons of little decisions coders make along the way to producing a finished game. It's all in the execution.

...

When asked about the differences in platforms, Carmack noted that there's less of a distinction between developing for the next-gen consoles as there is for this generation. The difference between the Xbox and the PS2 was massive, but going back and forth between the Xbox 360 and the PS3 looks to be less of a problem. (Although still difficult.)

...

 

I have highlighted the relelvant quote which helps explain why the PC platform, for gaming, isn't going anywhere.

 

[EnderAndrew]

Meta, why post the same thing in atleast three threads at once?

[metadigital]

Three different highlights, and generally only one of the three threads will survive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

and TOMBS level grinding