metadigital Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 I thought the four presidents carved into South Dakota were meant to be the duck's nuts? ... George Washington represents the struggle for independence, Thomas Jefferson the idea of government by the people. Abraham Lincoln for his ideas on equality and the permanent union of the states, and Theodore Roosevelt for the 20th century role of the United States in world affairs. ... OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Dark Moth Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Well, of course no leader in our history is perfect. George Washington didn't really view blacks as equals until he fought and lived with them in the Revolutionary War. After that, his entire outlook on them changed. Every leader has flaws, but you can't erase every good thing they did because of their flaws. I'm not accusing you of doing that, I'm just saying it to make a point. My education system may be unique, but I was taught/am being taught about our leaders' flaws often. Both of my history teachers in the past two years were big patriots, yet even they pointed out the fallacies of America and its leaders. I don't know which school you go to Calax, but my school never potrayed Kennedy as a saint. I don't think it's even fair to say America as a whole potrays Kennedy as a saint. There is a difference between patriotism and blind patriotism. As for our education, I do think it needs serious reworking, history being one of them. We do need to be taught about our leaders' strenghts and weaknesses, but most of all we need to be accurate and fair in our portrayal of them. And of course, you won't be seeing Kennedy or Nixon embedded in Rushmore. As for dubya being scrutinized by the press, it's already being done. God bless the U.S.
The Elite_elite Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Ps. "brutally murdering your citizens is NOT a differing ideology.". How many states have the capital punishment again..? A government brutally murdering its citizens? I guess it's easy to point fingers, huh. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Last I checked capital punishment is given to people who MURDER other people. I guess it's easy to forget the person who was killed should be avenged.
metadigital Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Ps. "brutally murdering your citizens is NOT a differing ideology.". How many states have the capital punishment again..? A government brutally murdering its citizens? I guess it's easy to point fingers, huh. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Last I checked capital punishment is given to people who MURDER other people. I guess it's easy to forget the person who was killed should be avenged. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah, but should revenge be a motivation for the state? Law and Order is one principle, Justice is important, but vengence is not a moral imperative. After all, Christianity, for one, teaches the power of forgiveness. When the forgiveness process is undertaken by willing participants, and is conducted honestly, it grants the victims freedom from hate and the perpetrators clemency and a stake in the society, which ultimately will motivate most people to good citizenship. (There are those beyond redemption, obviously; I wouldn't like to see any psychopaths, nor most murderers out on the street.) I saw a doco on tv recently, where the parents of a young man forgave the other young man who killed their son. Obviously not an easy thing to do, and it is prone to many potential issues that esily might derail it, but when it works it is truly miraculous. In this particular case, the jailed man was reclaimed from a wasted life in jail (after serving the rest of his sentence) and the parents were freed from the slavish hatred of another OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Dark Moth Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Agreed. Considering capital punishment, I'm only in favor of it in the most extreme cases and only when there is a lot of evidence to prove guilt. The BTK killer is a good example. If you've read anything about him or seen him recently on TV, you would think twice about whether this man should live or not. I do hate it, however, when people seem to forget that people being put on death row are people who killed others. But revenge should not be the concept - it should be justice/punishment. And one last time: Happy birthday, U.S.A.!!! :D
11XHooah Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Would sombody please get me out of this blasted country!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you want out then leave. No one is stopping you. And how can you hate this country that much? War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195
metadigital Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Hip, hip ... OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Dark Moth Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Ironically, most people that I've talked to who have visited other countries hold the same opinion: this one is best. :D And believe me, I've talked to many.
11XHooah Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Ironically, most people that I've talked to who have visited other countries hold the same opinion: this one is best. :D And believe me, I've talked to many. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hooah! America rocks! (w00t) War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195
Azarkon Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Happy 4th of July, and three cheers for the Empire of America! There are doors
EnderAndrew Posted July 5, 2005 Author Posted July 5, 2005 Dubya did win the popular vote the second time around, and the first election I believe was the closest in history. I think he is far from perfect, but I voted for him. I hated Clinton, Gore and Kerry. I have liberal ideals, but I'm looking for a Democrat with a sense of ethics, and they seem few and far between. I don't think upholding basic rights and caring for the population on the whole means you have to be amoral. Conservatives usually have higher ethical standards, but they are too quick to remove the rights of others to protect themselves. Either way, George Washington was not the First President of the United States. He was the first President under our current Constitution. John Hanson was the First President of the United States. Technically Vietnam was not a war, and at the same time neither victory nor defeat seem appropriate for what happened there. And perhaps the US didn't completely lose the war of 1812, but I feel Canada clearly won. They defended their territory, killed more than they suffered casualties, they morally defeated the US by burning down the White House, and they established a brisk economy in the process. The United States could be seen as aggressors who retreated in the conflict, and I personally see it as a war we lost. Either way, I commend Volourn for bringing up a good point. There are many detractors of the United States today, but most bring up flaws of the nation while both ignoring our strengths and the flaws of other nations. We are far from perfect, but still I am proud to be an American. http://www.marshallhall.org/hanson.html
Azarkon Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Either way, I commend Volourn for bringing up a good point. There are many detractors of the United States today, but most bring up flaws of the nation while both ignoring our strengths and the flaws of other nations. We are far from perfect, but still I am proud to be an American. I think it has alot to do with the fact that the US is the most powerful country in the world. When you're up on top, you're more prone to be criticized, and with good reason, because you hold the most influence out of all the nations, and can do the most good / cause the most harm. This is especially true when we proclaim ourselves as the symbol of freedom and civilization: after all, if the US is supposed to be (and it certainly thinks itself to be) the grand model of human nations, then every human being has an obligation to ensure that it is worthy to be considered such. It's like with celebrity. People like criticizing the life styles of celebrity, but seldom mention their strengths or the basic human flaws inherent in all of us, which simply become more pronounced as a person becomes richer and more famous / powerful. Ultimately, what I'm arguing is that alot of the criticism we receive we brought upon ourselves. Grand ambitions and ideals lead to grand critiques, because they have the potential to become grander failures. The US is very proud of itself and, unlike smaller nations that realize their own limitations, the US continues to believe in its own manifest destiny and centrality in world affairs. Part of this is because the US is still pretty much the only power player in the world. But that is changing, as countries like China continue to grow, and the key issue here is whether the US would ever be able to adapt to a position of co-habitation, rather than dominance. When you strive to rule the sky, you attract commentators on the scale of your hubris, whereas if you merely crawled upon the earth, no one is likely to care. That is the essence of why the US receives alot of flak, and in my perspective, that's a good thing, because it's always wise to check and balance the ambitions of great nations, lest they become too proud and too powerful, and destroy us all. There are doors
kirottu Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Darkside Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 This country has some serious issues, but doesn't everyone? I like it here. Happy one-day-late-birthday USA!
Aponez Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Happy Birthday, and enough PRIUS FLAMMIS COMBUSTA QUAM ARMIS NUMANCIA VICTA
metadigital Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 ...http://www.marshallhall.org/hanson.html <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nice link, I never knew that. It's actually an anniversary of the birthday of the US, not the actual birthday, per se, because that was back in the eighteenth century ... OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Kaftan Barlast Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 ..his great-grandfather died at Lutzen beside the great King Gustavus Aldophus of Sweden; his grandfather was one of the founders of New Sweden along the Delaware River in Maryland.. So the first president was a Swede OMFGZR0RZ!!!01010101 nice latinisation of our king, btw. sort of like saying "Georgeus Washingtonus" :D DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "
Walsingham Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Like this is a _surprise_ political debate thread... :D I really liked Ender's tribute and I say nuts to anyone who bashes America at the moment. It seems to be all to fashionable, and frankly it seems possible to be racist about Americans where no other nation would get the same treatment "Americans are dumb. Americans are fat. Americans are violent." Try that as "The Irish are dumb. Russians are fat. Nigerians are violent." Stings, don't it? Yeah, they have a screwy President, and a questionable administration. Boo-fething-hoo. They have also given us so many things, from mass-production (the Springfield Armory), to big budget Sci-fi channels, and the atom bomb. So what if Americans think they invented everything, and won every war they ever fought in. They DO go to school for one less year than Europeans. Yet ultimately they come out wanting the same things we do: beer, greasy food, people to rabbit with, and something to watch in between. America gets things wrong. But we all do. But they also occasionally get things right, and I think that when they do they come through in spades. A fair-and-square Republican democracy (you civ-heads should know the difference), fighting a war for (among other things) emancipation, three times coming to Europe's aid (eventually) against the Germans and the Russians, and putting mankind's feet among the stars. I'm not saying ignore anything they do wrong. I'm just saying don't be blind to the good stuff. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.
metadigital Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 PS They stole the German scientists to make the Atomic Bomb, before the German scientists stolen by the Soviets could. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
WITHTEETH Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 When i was in Florence Italy me and my friend were going to go up the Duoma and a we meet a Texan, he introduces himself then claims its the birthplace of Jesus. I didn't know what to say, i was only 14 at the time unfortunatly. Just to let all of you know, i know you are upset at us but not all of us are bad. "America **** yea! so lick my ass and suck on my balls!" Always outnumbered, never out gunned! Unreal Tournament 2004 Handle:Enlight_2.0 Myspace Website! My rig
Darque Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 And how can you hate this country that much? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's trendy these days.
mkreku Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 I guarantee if we had gone in during the first Gulf War we would have found those WMD's. So you can guarantee that, huh? And is that comment of yours suggesting that we are all ignorant and arrogant? Nope, not my point at all. Lets just negotiate with the terrorists. But USA didn't attack 'Terror-land', USA attacked Iraq. The citizens of Iraq are iraqi people, not terrorists. Don't ever forget that. Anyhow, sorry for helping to pull this thread into a negative spiral. I hate when that happens. I do like a lot of things about (and from) the USA, but Bush's foreign politics really make my blood boil. Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!
Dark Moth Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 I guarantee if we had gone in during the first Gulf War we would have found those WMD's. So you can guarantee that, huh? And is that comment of yours suggesting that we are all ignorant and arrogant? Nope, not my point at all. Lets just negotiate with the terrorists. But USA didn't attack 'Terror-land', USA attacked Iraq. The citizens of Iraq are iraqi people, not terrorists. Don't ever forget that. Anyhow, sorry for helping to pull this thread into a negative spiral. I hate when that happens. I do like a lot of things about (and from) the USA, but Bush's foreign politics really make my blood boil. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just a minor correction, mkreku - he can guarantee that, because Saddam Hussein actually used wmd's on his own people. Ever here of the gassing of the Kurds? The infamous "Chemical" Ali? All part of it. Saddam probably got rid of them before Bush Jr. invaded the second time.
Kaftan Barlast Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 And how can you hate this country that much? It's trendy these days. Yes, that is correct. It has absolutely nothing to do with the way the goverments have repeatedly "misbehaved" towards other countries dating back to pre-WW2 days. Personally, I think we should just ignore it and focus on all the positive things the US has given us instead Like American Idol or Cheese-filled pizza crusts. " DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "
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