Kotor 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I see, so unless I am a games developer or publisher, than I haven't really got any right to make judgements? 

 

I do not agree with your notion that it takes too much effort to write. It is just writing. Good writing, yes, but that is what compels me to play, and what transforms an ordinary, forgotten-next-season game, into a classic that is remembered indefinitely.

 

I would rather play an old classic firecracker than a new damp sqib.

 

I donated

[GhostofAnakin]

Not in KotOR 2's case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did you have problems with your disk? Or are you just speaking from secondhand experience?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Not in KotOR 2's case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mine worked fine. The only thing that went wrong was a scene not triggering because of the airspeeder. Walking through the door sorted that out.

 

I know a bunch of people with chipped Xboxs who are having all sorts of problems. But thems the risks as they say.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

man, you sure do take your games seriously meta

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see no point in doing anything half-heartedly. I work hard; I play hard. I high excruciatingly high standards for myslef, and I have very high standards for those that I interact with; I do not suffer fools.

 

If I purchase a product from someone, I expect it to be commensurate with the hard-earned cash I have laid out.

 

I am not unrealistic, just discriminating.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You left out spam hard

 

Still your hardly what a publisher would call a benchmark consumer. In order to discriminate something of that nature must be available. Obviously it could be that you are just wrong and the nature of writing that you demand just cant be done as long as you include an element of choice. This seems likely as every example is a narritive that requires a linear series of events to occur. Without those events occuring then you would have no story.

 

The same is true of tension. Not much of that when you can return to your homebase whenever you like. The alternative of course which is trapping the character into the location would have to be so finely balanced to be tense and not just an exercise in frustration as to be something best avoided.

[metadigital]

Your You're free to make judgements, but it's a million lightyears away from actually doing something. To me it comes across as a cheap shot, but your entitled to your opinion. Writing a masterpiece is a total waste of time if no one buys it. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would no-one buy a masterpeice?

... You may think otherwise, but then your not the one putting their money into the project.

 

Every "good" writing example you have come up with has fallen into two camps though. Either the linear which is a lot easier since your basically writing a story like you would a book with all the advantages it entails. Or the self contained situation, which again has no connection to what goes before or after.

 

Grim Fandango is not an RPG. It's a story with gameplay wrapped around it in the JRPG mold and no one disputes you can write those.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Grim Fandango is an adventure game. It couldn't be further from an RPG if it tried. I was using the voice-acting, the direction and the high production values as a benchmark.

 

There isn't a good example of what I'm talking about, because I am propounding the next evolutionary step in RPG writing.

 

Truly, you are acting like it is a sisyphean task to write an interconnected story with multiple endings and several minor narrative arcs for the secondary NPCs. It's not, it's just a little bit more complex. It takes more effort, it's not impossible. (I'll leave the quesiton of probability open, as that will only be answered after the future reveals itself to us.)

[Nartwak]

I high excruciatingly high standards for myslef...

:D

[Jediphile]

Anyone can write a snap shot like that , but actually writing a workable story around them, without simply making it linear and "pre destined" isnt as easy as you might like to think. Any PnP DM will tell you that a campaign rarely survives first contact with the players intact. It must be fluid enough to move without breaking the story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Amen! I can confirm this myself having been the GM of a PnP game for fifteen years and counting, my current campaign now entering its eleventh year IIRC. And PnP is much easier to handle, because I don't actually have to prepare for all the eventualities in advance. Naturally I try to anticipate the choices the players will make (and usually guess correctly - I know the players, after all), but even if they do something I didn't expect, I can make calls on the fly and let the plot unfold unhindered with the changes necessary.

 

A CRPG doesn't have that option, however, and therefore all possible choices must be taken into account by the programmers in advance, no matter how minute they are. Plus, of course, the programmers don't know the player.

 

Basically this is the main reason why most games are completely linear with no diviation, and why we no longer see games like Elite or Frontier or even something like Ultima VI or VII, where you could do pretty much anything you could think of - open-ended games are a programmer's nightmare, because the sheer number of possible outcomes they have to cater to are astronomical. Doing a completely linear story is far more manageable, and so allows much more attention to things like plot development and character complexity.

 

Of course, with the internet that might all chance with online games, but those are - for now - still fairly poor in characterization and strictly controlled by the companies. Some are run by the gamers, but often fall into the trap of everyone wanting to play the toughest character around. Still, if some company released an online RPG where the players can take control of story and characterization, then we might actually see brilliant CRPGs that allow for such things, since there will then be GMs online to deal with unexpected choices instead of having the programmers have to think of them beforehand. I don't think any company will release such a game, however, since it would be strategically unsound from a marketing point of view - they'd be giving the players full control and so making themselves obsolete, which means no further sales. But it might happen if a company doesn't see that. A bit like the internet itself, which has become a monster beyond all control of its makers.

[Dark Moth]

You left out spam hard 

 

Still your hardly what a publisher would call a benchmark consumer. In order to discriminate something of that nature must be available. Obviously it could be that you are just wrong and the nature of writing that you demand just cant be done as long as you include an element of choice. This seems likely as every example is a narritive that requires a linear series of events to occur. Without those events occuring then you would have no story.

 

The same is true of tension. Not much of that when you can return to your homebase whenever you like. The alternative of course which is trapping the character into the location would have to be so finely balanced to be tense and not just an exercise in frustration as to be something best avoided.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if you even bothered to pay attention when your playing you would know that in both Kotors you couldn't always return to your home base. On Kashyyk, I can't tell you the number of times I was frustrated because I couldn't return to the Ebon Hawk. And if you're in combat, you can't do it anyway. Maybe you like walking 100 miles to get to your homebase, but not everybody. It's not spoonfeeding, it's conveniance. Besides, THIS IS A GAME! It's not going to be 100% realistic, no matter how hard you try! In a game, there's nothing wrong with doing minor things to make a player's life easier, instant travel being one of them.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Grim Fandango is an adventure game. It couldn't be further from an RPG if it tried. I was using the voice-acting, the direction and the high production values as a benchmark.

 

There isn't a good example of what I'm talking about, because I am propounding the next evolutionary step in RPG writing.

 

Truly, you are acting like it is a sisyphean task to write an interconnected story with multiple endings and several minor narrative arcs for the secondary NPCs. It's not, it's just a little bit more complex. It takes more effort, it's not impossible. (I'll leave the quesiton of probability open, as that will only be answered after the future reveals itself to us.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well no one has done it so it can't be that easy can it. If someone could write a PST style story without having to give you a pre gen character of a known race or gender I would be very impressed. The ammount of work that would involve makes it a very unlikely thing to happen.

 

Your not propounding anything of the sort. All your doing is borrowing from what the Japanese have been doing for over 10 years. While you see this as a step forward I see it more of a step sideways. It's pretty obvious that the more control you take the stronger you story can be. Just look at KOTOR and how much relied on you being Revan , or KOTOR II with you being the Exile.

 

No it's not a little bit more complex. It's only a little bit more complex if you rob the player of every meaningful choice in the story. To do otherwise would require writing a whole different story arc for every outcome. Regardless of what choices you make in an RPG you will almost certainly be running over the same scenery and fighting the same enemies. Even with classics like FO this was still the case.

[metadigital]

... In order to discriminate something of that nature must be available. Obviously it could be that you are just wrong and the nature of writing that you demand just cant be done as long as you include an element of choice. This seems likely as every example is a narritive that requires a linear series of events to occur. Without those events occuring then you would have no story. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Firsty, you are putting words into my posts.

 

I am discriminating, fact. The availability of options for me to choose has no effect on that. If there is nothing I find satisfatory (as I have already said) I will not just buy anything. Life is too short.

 

Secondly, you sem to be very sure that it is "impossible" to write a connected series of scenes where, in some of them

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, if you even bothered to pay attention when your playing you would no that in both Kotors you couldn't always return to your home base.  On Kashyyk, I can't tell you the number of times I was frustrated because I couldn't return to the Ebon Hawk.  And if you're in combat, you can't do it anyway.  Maybe you like walking 100 miles to get to your homebase, but not everybody.  It's not spoonfeeding, it's conveniance.  Besides, THIS IS A GAME!  It's not going to be 100% realistic, no matter how hard you try!  In a game, there's nothing wrong with doing minor things to make a player's life easier, instant travel being one of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Neither KOTOR would be what I would call challenging enough to break a stride. But regardless. I'm not against instant travel, quite the opposite. I was merely illustrating how it makes any sort of tension impossible.

 

You pretty much confirmed what I was saying about how trapping the player in an area (although technically you are not trapped) leads to a fine line between tension and frustration.

[metadigital]

I have excruciatingly high standards for myslef...

:D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quiet in the peanut gallery!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Amen! I can confirm this myself having been the GM of a PnP game for fifteen years and counting, my current campaign now entering its eleventh year IIRC. And PnP is much easier to handle, because I don't actually have to prepare for all the eventualities in advance. Naturally I try to anticipate the choices the players will make (and usually guess correctly - I know the players, after all), but even if they do something I didn't expect, I can make calls on the fly and let the plot unfold unhindered.

 

A CRPG doesn't have that option, however, and therefore all possible choices must be taken into account by the programmers in advance, no matter how minute they are. Plus, of course, the programmers don't know the player.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nicely said. I dont think any of that is realistic until a computer can adjust the story on the fly in the same way a human DM can. Until that point it's either a very tightly controlled story with minimum real choice, or a more open generic story but allowing for more meaningful choices on the players part.

[metadigital]

Well no one has done it so it can't be that easy can it. If someone could write a PST style story without having to give you a pre gen character of a known race or gender I would be very impressed. The ammount of work that would involve makes it a very unlikely thing to happen.

 

Your not propounding anything of the sort. All your doing is borrowing from what the Japanese have been doing for over 10 years. While you see this as a step forward I see it more of a step sideways. It's pretty obvious that the more control you take [of the PC's backstory] the stronger you[r] story can be. Just look at KOTOR and how much relied on you being Revan , or KOTOR II with you being the Exile.

 

No it's not a little bit more complex. It's only a little bit more complex if you rob the player of every meaningful choice in the story. To do otherwise would require writing a whole different story arc for every outcome. Regardless of what choices you make in an RPG you will almost certainly be running over the same scenery and fighting the same enemies. Even with classics like FO this was still the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem determined to to write me up as a JRPG fan. I am talking about more than that; by your own admission those stories are very linear.

 

Why does it require an entire re-write of the entire story arc?

 

It just requires all the points on the story arc that are simulataneous (to keep the cartesian analogy going) with the variable minor narrative arc. If Jolee gets the squirts and doesn't want to play anymore because your PC insists on hanging around with HK, then Jolee doesn't participate as a party member for the rest of the game. Or the hostage taken in the last scene of Act 2 can be Jolee (if the PC is LS), or Jolee can take some "relic" from the PC that must be retrieved (LS or DS) to complete the story. Or, if Jolee stays, his child niece is kidnapped (LS).

 

Sure DS narratives are still less options than LS; that is a factor of the alignment: there are less motivations for a DS than there are for a LS, LS players have many more opportunities for ethical dilemmas.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Firsty, you are putting words into my posts.

 

I am discriminating, fact. The availability of options for me to choose has no effect on that. If there is nothing I find satisfatory (as I have already said) I will not just buy anything. Life is too short.

 

Secondly, you sem to be very sure that it is "impossible" to write a connected series of scenes where, in some of them

[metadigital]

Amen! I can confirm this myself having been the GM of a PnP game for fifteen years and counting, my current campaign now entering its eleventh year IIRC. And PnP is much easier to handle, because I don't actually have to prepare for all the eventualities in advance. Naturally I try to anticipate the choices the players will make (and usually guess correctly - I know the players, after all), but even if they do something I didn't expect, I can make calls on the fly and let the plot unfold unhindered.

 

A CRPG doesn't have that option, however, and therefore all possible choices must be taken into account by the programmers in advance, no matter how minute they are. Plus, of course, the programmers don't know the player.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nicely said. I dont think any of that is realistic until a computer can adjust the story on the fly in the same way a human DM can. Until that point it's either a very tightly controlled story with minimum real choice, or a more open generic story but allowing for more meaningful choices on the players part.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see. So what is this special DM-only technique that cannot possibly be replicated by a programmer?

[hawk]

Now that everyone is talking to everyone I would like to tell my opinion what should be done and what shoul not. Lets start at what shouldn't be done:

 

1) I really don't agree with an MMORPG. Why? This is the way the developers are earning lot's of money. People say that games are to expensive, and they copy it from someone else. Well, MMORPG is just way to expensive and when you didn't like the game, you allready paid 100's of Dollars. BAH!

 

2) I really don't want to spend more time at locations where we have allready been. I mean, I do want to take some looks at planets I know from the books but not wander around places we have allready been. Or if it should be very important in the storyline please don't do this.

 

3) It shouldn't be rushed like Kotor II.

 

What should be done:

 

1) I think we should make a story where you start as the Exile. Now, don't get to mad at me because there might be a special way of re

[metadigital]

Well regardless you cant know the quality of a story without first experiencing it. Any discrimination or lack there of becomes irrelevent in this case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because you say so?

The goal is to make you buy the game, and story is going to be low on the list of grab factors. Graphics are the obvious grab factor. Unlike graphics and even gameplay you cant examine the story in advance without spoiling it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But you can determine that you never want to play the game again, can't you? Most of these RPGs are trying to score highly in replayability ... certainly that was an obvious goal for K2.

 

I say again, what will lift an entirely forgettable game into the realm of classic is good writing. Invest in the writing and it will pay dividends long after any investment in graphics has long since faded.

You just described JRPG's again. These things exist already have done for years. If designers are not copying that model its because they want something more akin to PnP than interactive narrative.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I'm not. You keep telling me I am, but I am actually trying to build some depth into a CRPG.

I wouldnt argue anything about K2. It's clear that the game didnt have the intended ending and even reading snippets is mostly speculations. As such it's too easy to say if they did this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So all arguments that use the most readily available example are dismissed out of hand? I was making a point about how a tiny effort could have transformed the game, using the existing IP. You just wrote off my point saying "it wasn't finished", which is totally beside the point.

 

In case you wonder why I re-iterate this point, it is to refute the insinuation that you are continuing to promulgate that it would be a sisyphean task to write a deep story, with complex interactions with NPCs.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You seem determined to to write me up as a JRPG fan. I am talking about more than that; by your own admission those stories are very linear.

 

Why does it require an entire re-write of the entire story arc?

 

It just requires all the points on the story arc that are simulataneous (to keep the cartesian analogy going) with the variable minor narrative arc. If Jolee gets the squirts and doesn't want to play anymore because your PC insists on hanging around with HK, then Jolee doesn't participate as a party member for the rest of the game. Or the hostage taken in the last scene of Act 2 can be Jolee (if the PC is LS), or Jolee can take some "relic" from the PC that must be retrieved (LS or DS) to complete the story. Or, if Jolee stays, his child niece is kidnapped (LS).

 

Sure DS narratives are still less options than LS; that is a factor of the alignment: there are less motivations for a DS than there are for a LS, LS players have many more opportunities for ethical dilemmas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really all I'm saying is that it's been done and it's not as revolutionary as you seem to think it is.

 

Because in KOTOR the characters play an important part in the main plot. Without the characters you dont really have a plot. Now while it's possible to remove the characters from the plot, you then have to come up with another device that drives the plot.

 

Very simple example on KOTOR design. Kreia dies on Talos no more Kreia whoops there goes most of your story. This is why KOTOR NPCs cant die , thats why they will get up after every combat. Same is true of Jade Empire , except in that case they pop up fully healed.

 

Even your very simple outline dramatically increases the workload. And dosnt allow for any possibilities beyond A and B. It also puts a huge emphasis on the characters "likeability". You might go through hell to save Bastlia (personally I wouldnt) but would you to save GOTO ?

[Dark Moth]

Now that everyone is talking to everyone I would like to tell my opinion what should be done and what shoul not. Lets start at what shouldn't be done:

 

1) I really don't agree with an MMORPG. Why? This is the way the developers are earning lot's of money. People say that games are to expensive, and they copy it from someone else. Well, MMORPG is just way to expensive and when you didn't like the game, you allready paid 100's of Dollars. BAH!

 

2) I really don't want to spend more time at locations where we have allready been. I mean, I do want to take some looks at planets I know from the books but not wander around places we have allready been. Or if it should be very important in the storyline please don't do this.

 

3) It shouldn't be rushed like Kotor II.

 

What should be done:

 

1) I think we should make a story where you start as the Exile. Now, don't get to mad at me because there might be a special way of re

[ncr]

1) I really don't agree with an MMORPG. Why? This is the way the developers are earning lot's of money. People say that games are to expensive, and they copy it from someone else. Well, MMORPG is just way to expensive and when you didn't like the game, you allready paid 100's of Dollars. BAH!

 

2) I really don't want to spend more time at locations where we have allready been. I mean, I do want to take some looks at planets I know from the books but not wander around places we have allready been. Or if it should be very important in the storyline please don't do this.

 

3) It shouldn't be rushed like Kotor II.

 

1) I think we should make a story where you start as the Exile. Now, don't get to mad at me because there might be a special way of re

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Because you say so?

 

But you can determine that you never want to play the game again, can't you? Most of these RPGs are trying to score highly in replayability ... certainly that was an obvious goal for K2.

 

I say again, what will lift an entirely forgettable game into the realm of classic is good writing. Invest in the writing and it will pay dividends long after any investment in graphics has long since faded.

 

No, I'm not. You keep telling me I am, but I am actually trying to build some depth into a CRPG.

 

So all arguments that use the most readily available example are dismissed out of hand? I was making a point about how a tiny effort could have transformed the game, using the existing IP. You just wrote off my point saying "it wasn't finished", which is totally beside the point.

 

In case you wonder why I re-iterate this point, it is to refute the insinuation that you are continuing to promulgate that it would be a sisyphean task to write a deep story, with complex interactions with NPCs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Because it's the truth. How do you find out about the quality of a story? You can ask people(which spoils the story and may or may not be accurate), you can hope that because you know the authors work the story will be good(not foolproof by anymeans). But you cant know for certain until you experience it. It's like eating a cookie. The only way to know the quality of a cookie is to taste it. As a result if you dismiss things out of hand you may miss something good. And you still run the risk of a total lemon of story unless you already know what it is, which would be kind of pointless I would have thought.

 

Who cares ? Once you pay for the game mission accomplised by the publisher. One of the worst things you can do is to make a game so good that no one wants to play anything else.

 

Your just copying the JRPG design. Depth at the price of choice. Some like it some dont. Trying to compete directly with Squenix, not my idea of sane :D

 

I simply dont care to argue about something that isnt "complete". There are too many unknowns.

 

Again JRPGs have done this, the games are totally crafted around the NPCs in every aspect from story to gameplay. They have a much more organic feel but it's not under your control in the way KOTOR NPCs are.

[metadigital]

[1]Not really all I'm saying is that it's been done and it's not as revolutionary as you seem to think it is.

 

[2]Because in KOTOR the characters play an important part in the main plot. Without the characters you dont really have a plot. Now while it's possible to remove the characters from the plot, you then have to come up with another device that drives the plot.

 

Very simple example on KOTOR design. Kreia dies on Talos no more Kreia whoops there goes most of your story. This is why KOTOR NPCs cant die , thats why they will get up after every combat. Same is true of Jade Empire , except in that case they pop up fully healed.

 

[3]Even your very simple outline dramatically increases the workload. And dosn[']t allow for any possibilities beyond A and B. It also puts a huge emphasis on the characters "likeability". You might go through hell to save Bastlia (personally I wouldnt) but would you to save GOTO ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Okay, now I'm confused: is it impossible, or has it been done before.

 

2. Seemed to be quite easy to do in Morrowind: the PC could even kill off critical NPCs to the main plot. Now, I'm not suggesting that, but there is always alternatives that can be written into the narartive. Kreia dies? Atris is the baddy. Or Nihilus. Or Sion. Or the original Kreia, whose clone was killed in the early part of the story. (After all, let's face it, Darth Traya

was nothing like Kreia

, anyway. And that is the main NPC of K2, and it is easily solved!

 

3. Ignoring your comments about workload, the comments about motivation are new, so I shall address them. The simple answer is to give the PC a reason to do some action, whereby it benefits them more to do a certain thing than not.

 

For example, in NwN HotU, the battle at the end of Chapter 2 is directly effected by the side quests that the PC completes, and the way they are completed. For example,

not giving the Overmind the magic mirror artefact

adds these combatants to the big battle, as does the failure to complete any of the side quests also add the correlated enemies to the battle.

 

So this is not new, it is simply pulling all the different strands together and making a superlative gaming experience.

[ncr]

Isn't it sad how the worst JRPGs are the ones that sell the best? :cough:Final Fantasy:cough:

[Jediphile]

1) I really don't agree with an MMORPG. Why? This is the way the developers are earning lot's of money. People say that games are to expensive, and they copy it from someone else. Well, MMORPG is just way to expensive and when you didn't like the game, you allready paid 100's of Dollars. BAH!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's the danger, yes, but it might still happen that someone writes a game/program that caters to everyone's roleplaying desires. Otherwise we'll have to wait for the time when we get neural networks as standard in our computers...

 

Well, I have read and thought about the idea that the Exile first tries to find Revan after the events of Kotor II but returns as Darth Nihilus II. Off course, the Exile will get captured and mind wiped but remembers fragments of this through visions. There is doubt among your friends if you should be trained as a Jedi again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I'm certainly not about to speak out against that, having myself suggested The Exile's return as Darth Nihilus in my own suggestions :D

 

I'm much more skeptical about the mind wipe - it looks far too much like Revan's fate in KotOR1, and will give us yet another amnesic jedi. Most people seem to be sick of that theme, and I can't say I blame them - we've seen it twice in as many games... I'd much rather play a new, young jedi padawan on his/her way to glory and whose innocence and idealism must eventually save the day. I posted lengthy descriptions on my plot suggestions in earlier parts of the this topic (yes, I'm very verbose - there, I admit it...), though I never quite finished it.

 

1) Coruscant

2) Yavin IV

3) Mon Calamari

4) Alderaan

5) the Unkown World

6) Mirkr

7) Zonama Sekot

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Definitely Coruscant - I want the game to begin and end there. Alderaan, yes. I also wanted Myrkr to give the non-jedi an advantage and for an ending I had in mind.

 

Not sure about the rest, though. Don't see much point in Mon Calamari (yet another water planet? We already had Manaan...). And I really don't want Yavin IV, since I think it'll interfere with Exar Kun's fate. If it's for the purpose of following in Naga Sadow's footsteps, I'd much rather see his hidden base on Khar Shian.

 

I assume the Unknown World is the Rakatan homeworld from KotOR1, in which I'd vote against it - we've seen it and are done with the Rakatans. I don't want Zonama Sekot either, though for the opposite reasons - the Yuuzhan Vong belongs to the future of EU - please let it rest there.

 

I'd much rather see Ziost or other Sith worlds. Oh, and I'd like to finally see Sleheyron, too.