Standard Characters Vs Choice Characters

[metadigital]

Except it didn't work like that, nowehere near as well as that.

 

It was much clumsier than that, and bugged as well.

 

I liked the concept, but I didn't like the result.

 

You may wish to defend it till your blue in the face, I am not disagreeing with the concept -- far from it -- I think it was a poor implementation, which led to my disapointment (which empathising with gives you much trouble, apparently).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Except it didn't work like that, nowehere near as well as that.

 

It was much clumsier than that, and bugged as well.

 

I liked the concept, but I didn't like the result.

 

You may wish to defend it till your blue in the face, I am not disagreeing with the concept -- far from it -- I think it was a poor implementation, which led to my disapointment (which empathising with gives you much trouble, apparently).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually for me it did, put then I never tried to play the system to my advantage. Which is one of the flaws, if you do set out to simply gain influence then its not a particularly difficult thing to do.

 

It's enough that the concept has merrit. Few things that are new are perfect first time. As I said to implement such a concept in 12 months is close to miraculous.

 

Your disapointment is really your issue not mine. I see no particular reason to share it. And since you see merit in the system I'm more inclined to put it down to with refinement you will become less disapointed.

 

I'll take flawed with potential over stagnated any day of the week.

[metadigital]

Setting aside your admiration for the attempt at a workable influence system, there is still the woeful charaqcter development. The NPCs were not much more than moving wallpaper.

 

Anyway, I think the writing should have been emphasized more, you have stated earlier that better graphics would have impressed you more. I think your hope for a promising-but-flawed improvement in the non-combat mechanism requires more writing than a stagnant-but-graphically-superior one.

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

you have stated earlier that better graphics would have impressed you more. I think your hope for a promising-but-flawed improvement in the non-combat mechanism requires more writing than a stagnant-but-graphically-superior one.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Never said that. What I said was better graphics have far more immediate grabbing power than a better story. I seriously doubt anyone will disagree with that.

 

I'd like to see the influence system at work with a "normal" character.

 

Moving wallpaper... right...

 

Can't think of any other game where a character has put off talking to an NPC because they fear that their whole life view could just be wrong and perhaps the world isnt just Light and Darkside after all. Not bad for moving wallpaper. If that is what a moving wallpaper NPC is. Then I can only hope that they appear in more games.

[EnderAndrew]

Is anyone here an X-Files fan? Anyone remember the episode Memoirs of a Smoking Man?

 

That is a fine example of a normal guy falling to the Dark Side.

[Calax]

normal people just become mean. Darksiders try to kill everyone and everything. their's a difference of magnitude but that's about it...

 

Here's a quick question. How are you able to run through a training academy killing poor diffenceless sith and not get a single darkside point in kotor 1 when anakin did the same thing and got about 200 of the things?????????

[SteveThaiBinh]

Here's a quick question. How are you able to run through a training academy killing poor diffenceless sith and not get a single darkside point in kotor 1 when anakin did the same thing and got about 200 of the things?????????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should get major DS points. In fact, most intelligent creatures that you fight would surrender before you killed them - then the choice is to finish them off or spare them. But it would take time to implement that into a game, and players might get bored with it. If I were designing a Star Wars game, I would make sure that most of the battles were with monsters like cannok or zakrek (zagreg?), and fights with people were fewer, harder, and plot-related. You could even have the choice of escorting defeated characters to prison, or recruiting some of them into your party (temporarily or permanently).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You should get loads of DS points for going around killing innocent creatures for no reason.

[EnderAndrew]

normal people just become mean. Darksiders try to kill everyone and everything. their's a difference of magnitude but that's about it...

 

Here's a quick question. How are you able to run through a training academy killing poor diffenceless sith and not get a single darkside point in kotor 1 when anakin did the same thing and got about 200 of the things?????????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, I cite an X-Files episode that shows a good progression of how a loyal, honest citizen with good intentions gets twisted to becomming the uber-evil Smoking Man.

[metadigital]

...  But it would take time to implement that into a game, and players might get bored with it.  If I were designing a Star Wars game, I would make sure that most of the battles were with monsters like cannok or zakrek (zagreg?), and fights with people were fewer, harder, and plot-related.  You could even have the choice of escorting defeated characters to prison, or recruiting some of them into your party (temporarily or permanently).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a cop-out. Playing lightside is more difficult for a reason; you are protecting the weak, whereas the darkside are able to use human shields, break their word in negotiations (or not), kill indiscriminantly, fart in public, talk in public libraries and take hostages and kill with moral impugnity.

 

That's what's missing. Maybe less people would be lightside if they were appraised of the real consequences of their actions ...

[SteveThaiBinh]

That's a cop-out. Playing lightside is more difficult for a reason; you are protecting the weak, whereas the darkside are able to use human shields, break their word in negotiations (or not), kill indiscriminantly, fart in public, talk in public libraries and take hostages and kill with moral impugnity.

 

That's what's missing. Maybe less people would be lightside if they were appraised of the real consequences of their actions ... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's a cop-out? Force LS characters to accept the consequences of their morality? Turning their opponents into real people who might surrender or even repent, or give the appearance of repenting? Hardly.

 

Or you mean reducing the number of intelligent foes? Well, maybe. I was thinking of it more as a compromise - a way of making the game more realistic without making it deathly dull.

 

More people would be LS if the game truly presented them with the consequences of their actions. The reality of evil is that it isn't cool, it's pathetic.

[metadigital]

What's a cop-out?  Force LS characters to accept the consequences of their morality?  Turning their opponents into real people who might surrender or even repent, or give the appearance of repenting?  Hardly.

 

Or you mean reducing the number of intelligent foes?  Well, maybe. I was thinking of it more as a compromise - a way of making the game more realistic without making it deathly dull.

 

More people would be LS if the game truly presented them with the consequences of their actions.  The reality of evil is that it isn't cool, it's pathetic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear -- too many thoughts fighting to control the old grey matter (quiet in there!).

 

It's a cop-out to reduce the number of intelligent foes, and permit the wholesale slaughter of beasts. There should be real LS combat non-lethal alternatives, like subduing opponents and beasts.

 

It might even yield less experience. And be more difficult to do (sort of like a critical strike additional role after a hit, perhaps not as tough as a critical strike). That way the player is always tempted to just kill the opponent ... edging slowly down the insidiously slippery slope to the Dark Side ...

[EnderAndrew]

The biggest tool I have as a DM/GM/ST in Pen and Paper games is merely arbitrating consequences for player actions. That makes for a good portion of the story in and of itself.

 

More games need to do this. Very few games have me really sitting and thinking about the actions I take in them.

[someOldGuy]

It might even yield less experience. And be more difficult to do (sort of like a critical strike additional role after a hit, perhaps not as tough as a critical strike). That way the player is always tempted to just kill the opponent ... edging slowly down the insidiously slippery slope to the Dark Side ...

 

I think you hit it right on the head. The problem with the way DS and LS are portrayed is that they are incredibly unrealistic. Let me illustrate by applying this to how KOTR2 would treat a real world scenario:

 

You're walking along and a homeless guy approaches you for money.

LS: You give the man most the money you have because you actually don't need the money (after all, money is pretty useless in the game)

Neutral: You ignore the guy

DS: You shoot the bum because you can, then laugh maniacally while twiddling your mustache.

 

With a more realistic interpretation of LS/DS:

 

LS: You give the man most the money you have. This will set you back considerably and make the game much more difficult to complete.

Neutral: You give the guy some pocketchange - enough to get him off your back but not enough to inconvenience you.

DS: You keep the money for yourself because you need it more than the homeless guy. Maybe you throw in "I work for my money, you work for yours. Get a job!"

 

 

I'd like to see a game where being LS and helping other people will actually cost you something and might even hold you back or weaken you. You buy a ticket for a woman trying to flee the planet. Well, now you're down 500 credits, you can't off the planet yourself, and the only way you can earn that much money back in a LS manner is by pushing crates around at the dock.

 

Perhaps this woman turns out to be an enemy. She later comes back and seriously hampers your efforts (like kills one of your companions or steals all your items). Perhaps helping this woman gets the local authorities after you. Not in the sense of KOTR2 where you can mow through everyone, but in the sense that if you're caught in the open they can and will kill you. Now you're stuck sneaking around town and hiding from the guards. But perhaps since you helped her, she will help you out later in the game - but if you are true LS, this shouldn't matter at all.

 

I'd like to see a game where being DS has tangible benefits, such as giving superior special abilities or items. However, if you're too DS and selfish, you will make more enemies that will cause trouble for you later.

 

Basically, I would like to see a game that treats DS/LS in a realistic fashion instead of the Saturday-morning cartoon manner it's treated now. Sorry about the long post/rant.

 

-Someone looking for a more mature game

[Calax]

well i must say, for an old dude you certainly cant talk alot.

 

your ds example is a tad bit like what my parents say to me. Instead it should be somthing along the lines of telling him to just buzz off after "giving him a taste of the darkside" Vader style. Or what meta and i have been begging for, being able to use the massive faceless companies like fiddels and make them do good. If i had my way in kotor 2 i would kill Janet Lorso myself but you can't. instead you have to hand her over to justice which may lead her being relaced just because of the fact she works for a big company. Also you need to just kill somthings if your' truly evil you should be able to kill npc's on a whim not just when they give you a flimsy reason too.

 

The reason i picked standard chars' is because they have more depth to them in kotor 2 anyway. While the choice chars are either annoying as heck (disiple) or they have no real purpose at all other than as a tank(Hanharr) or they are design'd to infiltrate a nonexistant base with no mishaps (Mira) or you have to wait a really long time before you finially get to have them reach full potential (Handmaiden).

 

there's what you paid for.

[EnderAndrew]

Most publishers aren't going to release a game where you are penalized for being good, and rewarded for being evil.

 

These games are influential on kids, and parenting kids would crucify a game they felt was influencing kids towards evil.

 

Games like GTA already get such negative publicity, but Rockstar can defend the game saying it's stylized crime. No parent in their right mind should let their kid play the game to begin with.

 

When you make a Star Wars game along these lines, you will attract a younger audience who loves Star Wars, and parents will assume that a Star Wars title is appropriate for a younger audience.

 

Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast actually has it in their guidelines that Evil can not triumph in any of their products. I'm sure Lucas, as a big family man would have the same standards with LucasArts games.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Most publishers aren't going to release a game where you are penalized for being good, and rewarded for being evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats pretty much how it works already. The rewards for evil are more tangible than those for being good.

 

If you play as evil in any game, you will almost certainly have more stuff at the end than if you play good. Since you can kill both sides and nick everyones stuff.If your doing your job of roleplaying a good character, then you wont be rooting through peoples belongings everywhere you go either, even if the game dosnt directly penalise you for those sorts of actions.

 

The idea of giving most of your money to beggers dosnt strike me as particlularly LS but more along the lines of stupid.

 

Shooting a begger as DS , yep I can see that. Your doing him and everyone else a favour.

[EnderAndrew]

In playing games like KOTOR on both paths, it is fairly balanced. Killing people leads to looting, and saving people leads to rewards.

[SteveThaiBinh]

In playing games like KOTOR on both paths, it is fairly balanced.  Killing people leads to looting, and saving people leads to rewards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rewards which you then tend to refuse for even more LS points. But money doesn't matter in Kotor 2 because you can't buy anything that compares to the stuff you find randomly. Giving up the rewards isn't a real hardship.

[EnderAndrew]

In playing games like KOTOR on both paths, it is fairly balanced.  Killing people leads to looting, and saving people leads to rewards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rewards which you then tend to refuse for even more LS points. But money doesn't matter in Kotor 2 because you can't buy anything that compares to the stuff you find randomly. Giving up the rewards isn't a real hardship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In refusing rewards, sometimes I get the LS points, and then they insist on still giving me the reward. Sometimes I get an extra reward for refusing the reward, and sometimes I refuse the reward and only get LS points.

 

Said rewards that I miss out on are likely only credits, which are pretty worthless. I never needed money in KOTOR:2 because I used equipment to break down for components and upgraded my own gear. I never saw anything for sale that was better than the stuff I was making myself, and there was an over abundance of random loot laying about.

 

DS players can intimidate for extra cash, which is pretty useless, but I'm sure most people attempt some balance in offering certain plot rewards that you only get with LS solutions.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Rewards which you then tend to refuse for even more LS points.  But money doesn't matter in Kotor 2 because you can't buy anything that compares to the stuff you find randomly.  Giving up the rewards isn't a real hardship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good people dont do things for the reward after all.

 

I made most of my stuff. I like making stuff :D

Making in stuff in Star Ocean was more fun though, especially filing the patent and then getting royalties.

[EnderAndrew]

I've never played the Star Ocean games. What would you compare them to?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I've never played the Star Ocean games.  What would you compare them to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Er..

 

Nothing I can really think of sorry.

 

It's JRPG like but you have about 6 different endings and character relationships which are outside of the main directed plot. Only you dont get the usual pick from a list stuff you have to work out what motivates each character by action.

 

It's also a sci fi game, but it mostly takes place on class 3 planets with fantasy tech.

[someOldGuy]

In playing games like KOTOR on both paths, it is fairly balanced.  Killing people leads to looting, and saving people leads to rewards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rewards which you then tend to refuse for even more LS points. But money doesn't matter in Kotor 2 because you can't buy anything that compares to the stuff you find randomly. Giving up the rewards isn't a real hardship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The real reward in these cases are the LS points themselves. LS points are infinitely more valuable than money or items because there's a boundless supply of the latter and limited opportunities for the former.

 

So in a sense, helping others is just a way to get to LS mastery and get the bonus, rather than helping others because you're a good guy. If there were quests where you had to go out of your way and help someone and there was absolutely no reward in it: no money, no light side points, no items, no experience - would you still do it without hesitation?

[SteveThaiBinh]

The real reward in these cases are the LS points themselves.  LS points are infinitely more valuable than money or items because there's a boundless supply of the latter and limited opportunities for the former.

 

So in a sense, helping others is just a way to get to LS mastery and get the bonus, rather than helping others because you're a good guy.  If there were quests where you had to go out of your way and help someone and there was absolutely no reward in it:  no money, no light side points, no items, no experience - would you still do it without hesitation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Virtue is its own reward, huh?

 

A different approach is 'What goes around comes around". If you do good, you should be rewarded, although the rewards are less tangible or direct.

 

I would be happy if the only reward for doing good was reputation - that word got around of your deeds and people reacted to you accordingly, opening new dialogue options and so on. Having no reward at all doesn't make for a good game, I suspect.