Lucius Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 No, but I do consider patriotism as something extreme and very far right, and Steve has already explained why. I'm proud of my country, my history, my flag. But I'm no patriot, saying I 'love' them is a bit too far for me. DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.
Kaftan Barlast Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Patriotism is a product of longterm propaganda aimed at making the general population(supposedly for their own good, because they cant be trusted to make the necessary decisions) more loyal towards whoever happens to run the country, wether its goverment or bussiness corporations. That type of propaganda was common worldwide until the end of WW2. edit: I removed the major part because it was out of context and a surefire flamestarter. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "
213374U Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 No, but I do consider patriotism as something extreme and very far right, and Steve has already explained why. What you consider is of no consequence. What you can prove or at least back up is what counts. So far you have done none of these things. And let me remind you it's you who has brought sides to this. I never "coloured" patriotism, but you have. And in doing so you have apparently revealed yourself as a "lefty". Well, my dear lefty. As far as right-haters go, there wasn't anyone more so than the Soviet Union. And guess what, patriotism was as promoted there as in the US or nazi Germany. I'm proud of my country, my history, my flag. But I'm no patriot, saying I 'love' them is a bit too far for me. Translation: "I'm moderately patriotic, but I fear that if I claim that I "love" my country, I might be labeled a "righty"". That's why I asked you the question about muslims. Since you appear to be having difficulties grasping what's behind it, let me clear it up for you. Not every muslim is a suicide bomber, just like not every patriot is a neonazi. Extremes are always bad, that's for sure. But the same way that people who take patriotism to the extreme might assume fascist stances, extremely unpatriotic people tend to be anarchists. I honestly don't see how one is better than the other. Patriotism is a product of longterm propaganda aimed at making the general population(supposedly for their own good, because they cant be trusted to make the necessary decisions) more loyal towards whoever happens to run the country, wether its goverment or bussiness corporations. That type of propaganda was common worldwide until the end of WW2. No. You are describing fascism, nazism, and their exaltation, corruption and exploitation of the patriotic feeling. It's sad to see people confuse those so far after the fall of those ideologies. edit: I removed the major part because it was out of context and a surefire flamestarter. Why, WHY? :'( - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Lucius Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 What you consider is of no consequence. What you can prove or at least back up is what counts. So far you have done none of these things. And let me remind you it's you who has brought sides to this. I never "coloured" patriotism, but you have. And in doing so you have apparently revealed yourself as a "lefty". Well, my dear lefty. As far as right-haters go, there wasn't anyone more so than the Soviet Union. And guess what, patriotism was as promoted there as in the US or nazi Germany. If you can turn on your brain for a moment, I said Steve has already pointed it out, try reading, it helps. And as for your little branding, I support the right wing government of this country, but even our most right wing party is not in any way as extremely patriotic as you've revealed yourself to be. So much for your 'lefty' argument. Translation: "I'm moderately patriotic, but I fear that if I claim that I "love" my country, I might be labeled a "righty"". That's why I asked you the question about muslims. Since you appear to be having difficulties grasping what's behind it, let me clear it up for you. Not every muslim is a suicide bomber, just like not every patriot is a neonazi. Extremes are always bad, that's for sure. But the same way that people who take patriotism to the extreme might assume fascist stances, extremely unpatriotic people tend to be anarchists. I honestly don't see how one is better than the other. Again, if you'd bothered to read what I actually wrote, I began my last post with a solid "No", as in NO I don't think all muslims are terrorists, just as not all patriots are neonazies (but here it's often the case), but with you I'm honestly not sure anymore. Are you a neonazi? As for your little bs translation, don't put words in my mouth. DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.
213374U Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 If you can turn on your brain for a moment, I said Steve has already pointed it out, try reading, it helps. And as for your little branding, I support the right wing government of this country, but even our most right wing party is not in any way as extremely patriotic as you've revealed yourself to be. So much for your 'lefty' argument. No. Steve has only made a second-hand assessment of what patriotism is about in some cases and only in the US. Obviously you have a knack for generalizations, since you consider that to be the case in the rest of the world. I will turn my brains on, but you sure as hell should grow some. Again, if you'd bothered to read what I actually wrote, I began my last post with a solid "No", as in NO I don't think all muslims are terrorists, just as not all patriots are neonazies (but here it's often the case), but with you I'm honestly not sure anymore. Are you a neonazi?As for your little bs translation, don't put words in my mouth. There you go again with another inane generalization. Your obtuse neighbors associating patriotism with nazism means nothing, because no amount of people supporting a wrong idea will make it right. And no, I'm no neonazi. I seem to be even less right-leaning than you (even though for some reason I believe you would say anything to get yourself out of the mess you have gotten into) since even though I love my country, I will give my support to whatever party I think will do it better, whatever may be their colour. You still fail to understand that patriotism has nothing to do with political regimes, or politics at all for that matter. Mission failed, troll. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Lucius Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Mission failed? No not quite, I've at least succeeded in drawing an extremist out into the open. I'm actually quite pleased with how much of a jerk you've revealed yourself to be, not that I'm that surprised myself. Have fun doing your patriotic duty. DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.
213374U Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Mission failed? No not quite, I've at least succeeded in drawing an extremist out into the open. I'm actually quite pleased with how much of a jerk you've revealed yourself to be, not that I'm that surprised myself. Have fun doing your patriotic duty. An extremist? Yeah, I'm an extremist at bashing moronic trolls like you. It's always fun to see people resort to cheap flames and trolling when their particular brand of logic fails. Oh well, it's good to see that there are still plenty of examples of bigotry and stupidity for people not to follow. Hey, everyone's got to be useful for something. Looks like we found what you are useful for. Thanks for that. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
SteveThaiBinh Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 One problem is that the word 'patriotism' can encompass a spectrum of different meanings ranging from affection and critical respect for one's country to undying devotion and being utterly blind to its faults. What is meant by the word changes according to your mother tongue, generation and cultural background. For example, the US government has introduced a Patriot Act, I believe. Irrespective of its content, even a conservative government in the UK could not introduce an act with that name. Most people, including moderate conservatives, would be uncomfortable and associate it with reckless nationalism. That doesn't mean that Americans are super-nationalist nazis or that Brits are all lefties. It's a product of different cultures and histories. So let's not worry too much over one word. "An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)
Lucius Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 At least I'm not the one advocating extreme patriotism, and that arrogant jerk off attitude of yours doesn't help you much in whatever goal you have. You have achieved nothing than to get a rise out of me with your provocative way of writing, calling me a troll for questioning your flag weaving teary eyed self. (time to sing the national anthem?) I don't know where you're from, but be weary my militaristic friend, fascism is only a few steps away. Bashing moronic trolls, lol, this really made my day. DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.
Kaftan Barlast Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Patriotism is a product of longterm propaganda aimed at making the general population(supposedly for their own good, because they cant be trusted to make the necessary decisions) more loyal towards whoever happens to run the country, wether its goverment or bussiness corporations. That type of propaganda was common worldwide until the end of WW2. No. You are describing fascism, nazism, and their exaltation, corruption and exploitation of the patriotic feeling. It's sad to see people confuse those so far after the fall of those ideologies. No, Im describing something that is quite real and in existence. Its no longer called "propaganda" because of the negative associations we have with that word. Today its called public relations, political advertising, medial strategies, information flow control, projected discourse and a million other names, but its still the same basic thing- the process of influencing the general population into do, believe and think what you want them to. Patriotism is an effective tool of control. By manufacturing a strong feeling of "us and them" you gain a multitude of ways to manipulate the public. One way is labelling your actions as "patriotic"(we're invading this foreign country to protect YOU) and see to it that any critiscism is dismissed as "unpatriotic"(if youre against US, then obviosly you are for THEM and a traitor to US) and so on. Feeling that "hey, this country is a pretty nice place to live in" like is very far from Patriotism. edit: I removed the major part because it was out of context and a surefire flamestarter. Why, WHY? :'( <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because then it would escalate into one of those arguments where Taks and I take turns to trade 2000 word posts about the definition of realword capitalism, and that wouldnt be good for my cold-fueled headache. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "
213374U Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 At least I'm not the one advocating extreme patriotism, and that arrogant jerk off attitude of yours doesn't help you much in whatever goal you have. I am not advocating extreme patriotism, as I have already explained. Your inability to understand my position is only proof of how narrow sighted you are. Oh, and I don't have any goals. Not here at least. I don't try to convince others that my opinions are right, neither do I try to have others feel patriotic. The funny thing is, I have never stated I'm the paradigm of patriotism myself. You have done nothing but generalize and pull stuff out of your ass for your conclusions. You are quite the master conversationalist, indeed. You have achieved nothing than to get a rise out of me with your provocative way of writing, calling me a troll for questioning your flag weaving teary eyed self. (time to sing the national anthem?) Here we go again with a barrage of lame ad hominem attacks. Keep trying to ridiculize me, but you have failed to defuse any of my arguments. That is what makes you a troll. I don't know where you're from, but be weary my militaristic friend, fascism is only a few steps away. To someone as narrow minded as yourself, perhaps. I have to deal on a daily basis with extremists of patriotism which in some cases border fascism, and I can't tell you how much they sicken me. But why am I telling you all of this? Your prejudices will overrule your logic and common sense everytime. I feel somewhat sorry for you. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Rosbjerg Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Lucius .. the best you can do now is simply back away .. don't show him any fear! he can smell that!! :D Fortune favors the bald.
Lucius Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 In short, you came off as a prick in the beginning and you continued to be a prick till just about now, when you realized how much of a jerk off you've been and you're desperately trying to save what little credibility you have left. Don't do me any favours Herr. 213374U, I couldn't care less about your patriotic bull****, and for the sake of never having to endure your stupidity let alone your arrogant posting style again, I'm granting you a free ride on ignore. Have FLAGtastic day, moron. DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.
Lucius Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Lucius .. the best you can do now is simply back away .. don't show him any fear! he can smell that!! :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Too late, and besides, I never back away. I almost never ignore people, but this guy is special, I'll give him that. And do you think I'm the bad guy here? Or is it just that he's better at writing never ending arrogant posts than me? :ph34r: DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.
Rosbjerg Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Lucius .. the best you can do now is simply back away .. don't show him any fear! he can smell that!! :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Too late, and besides, I never back away. I almost never ignore people, but this guy is special, I'll give him that. And do you think I'm the bad guy here? Or is it just that he's better at writing never ending arrogant posts than me? :ph34r: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> well 213374U is the forum trollish Cowboy.. he has specialised himself in annoying people and turning their words into childish remarks .. ^_^ Fortune favors the bald.
213374U Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 What a surprise. Another poster that, with his arguments destroyed, and his trollish demeanor uncovered, takes full advantage of the ignore function. As I said before, it's nice to see that bigotry runs rampant. Well, I really hope you keep your word and stop derailing this thread that was perfectly on topic until you made it personal about me. well 213374U is the forum trollish Cowboy.. he has specialised himself in annoying people and turning their words into childish remarks .. ^_^ Yep. And best of all is that I do that only after I have presented valid arguments to counter the childish rem... er, comments. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
kirottu Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 What the US needs to do, is recall the draft and make sure that everyone does his/hers job serving their country. It also abolishes the situation where ordinary civilians might be treated as a second-hand citizens. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Worst idea ever. No-one should be forced into situation where they might die(or kill) simply because they live in certain country. This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
B5C Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 What the US needs to do, is recall the draft and make sure that everyone does his/hers job serving their country. It also abolishes the situation where ordinary civilians might be treated as a second-hand citizens. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Worst idea ever. No-one should be forced into situation where they might die(or kill) simply because they live in certain country. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well I like the idea. Joining the military proves that your are loyal to the United States of America and it will also make you proud to be a American.
kirottu Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 What the US needs to do, is recall the draft and make sure that everyone does his/hers job serving their country. It also abolishes the situation where ordinary civilians might be treated as a second-hand citizens. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Worst idea ever. No-one should be forced into situation where they might die(or kill) simply because they live in certain country. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well I like the idea. Joining the military proves that your are loyal to the United States of America and it will also make you proud to be a American. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You cannot be proud american with out putting your life in danger or killing other people? This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
B5C Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 You cannot be proud american with out putting your life in danger or killing other people? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Whats wrong defending your country's needs and killing your enemies?
mkreku Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Whats wrong defending your country's needs and killing your enemies? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How do you know you're killing 'your enemies'? In a war you're being controlled by a higher authority, and you're killing very abstract 'enemies'. How do you know for sure, that the people you're bombing 5000 feet below are your enemies? If someone becomes an enemy in your own hometown, is it still ok to kill him? USA didn't have a need to go to war. Bush had a need to go to war because it was election time (and a war president has never lost an election). Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!
B5C Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 USA didn't have a need to go to war. Bush had a need to go to war because it was election time (and a war president has never lost an election). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WRONGO! Bush Sr. was a War pres and lost a 2nd term and a few other Presidents.
mkreku Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 USA didn't have a need to go to war. Bush had a need to go to war because it was election time (and a war president has never lost an election). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WRONGO! Bush Sr. was a War pres and lost a 2nd term and a few other Presidents. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok, that might be so, I only read that fact on the internet and I have no interest in looking it up. I'll take your word for it. Anyhow, how about you answer my other two questions? Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!
B5C Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 How do you know you're killing 'your enemies'? In a war you're being controlled by a higher authority, and you're killing very abstract 'enemies'. How do you know for sure, that the people you're bombing 5000 feet below are your enemies? They tell you to bomb that area. You bomb that area. If someone becomes an enemy in your own hometown, is it still ok to kill him? No, we shun him or run him out of town. :D
Darth_Radnor Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Speaking of Bush Sr, what he said about invading Iraq: To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day hero ... assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an un-winnable urban guerilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability. How right he was.
Recommended Posts