If the exile does not have memory loss...

[Blaise Russel]

and yes revan would not have made him general if he were not proficient in the force. the exile CLEARLY was learning these basic force powers with dialog that this was the first time experiencing them.

 

Again, Chuckles: stuff like Force Sight, reliance on skills and 'listening' through the Force aren't basic. Because, you know, Revan, Bastila, Juhani and Jolee were all fully trained in these basic abilities - and more! And Kreia and the Exile (and Visas, in one case) aren't the only ones we ever see that are trained in these BASIC and OBVIOUS techniques, no?

 

I don't see it as unfair to assume that if the sole source we have - the game - says that these Force abilities are new to the Exile, a fully-trained Jedi, then that's because they're obscure Force abilities that aren't normally taught to Padawans, due to ignorance or... other reasons. Bear in mind also that Kreia's one-time job was historian and librarian of the Jedi, and performed a stint as a Sith Lord at an academy for the Ancient Sith, and as such would have access to forgotten and unused techniques that a standard Jedi from the Dantooine Academy might not know.

 

the light saber was indeed 3 pre-built components but he should still know how to build one since he had one for a long time which he had to maintain.

 

As I said, the three components was an allowance for players who didn't want to run all over the galaxy looking for tiny little lenses and power cells and casings and rubbish like that. As was the whole question of 'how to build a lightsaber'.

 

Consider also that the Exile is constructing his lightsaber in different conditions with limited resources to the Academy, which has everything he could possibly require for making a lightsaber - including means of ensuring quality control of the materials, which is something that a Tech Specialist like Bao-Dur can do and indeed comes up in dialogue, too.

 

death of the force can only mean one thing and having a larger force pool that you add to by leaching off others isnt it.

 

Sez you.

 

continuity of the sw universe

 

Screw continuity; canon is the stone that gets in the way of the sculpture.

 

glad to finally get a reply that doesnt assume kotor 2 is always right and cannot make mistakes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People can only disagree with you because they're slavishly devoted to protecting the honour and reputation of a computer game? Piss off.

 

even a 60 year old war vet can field strip a side arm/rifle (of their era) and put it back together without thinking twice...

 

Just a thought: how many times does a Jedi have to assemble, dis-assemble and re-assemble his lightsaber over the course of his life?

[kbned]

uhh dude, listening to the force isnt a secret or forgotten power that is forbidden. reading minds is also pretty common. jedi do it often when they try to find out someone's real intentions or to see if someone is lying to them. it is very important to the missions of the jedi as peace keepers so they would definitely teach this to their students. i dont know why you refered to me as chuckles, it is clearly not my name or even an adjective to be used to describe me. you seem very confused... you still learning english? i dont mean that as an insult, english isnt my first language either.

[witchzenka]

Goodness.

Ok, you're right and everyone else is wrong - that's what you go on anyway.

BTW, you do not have to follow the "How do I build a lightsaber" convo options.... You can say "Very well. To begin with, there are some pieces I'll need." The Exile obviously knows how to build a lightsaber - the rest is just game mechanics, and not story.

But cling to that all you like, not like I have any belief in your willingness to consider anyone else's theories.

(And telling me not to post? Ha. Good luck with that.)

[kbned]

you're just as stubborn as i am.. <_< i dont remember the exact dialog with bao dur but the way i remember it was more of the exile joking "of course i know how to build one!" and the exile admitting to not knowing the parts needed. did you go through that dialog recently? i think he agrees that he needs to build one but doesnt actually know the parts needed.

[witchzenka]

Actually I have gone through that dialog recently, and you can pretty much choose whether the Exile knows how to build a lightsaber or not, which is why I see it as a game mechanic so the process can be explained to the player.

Stubborn! Quit flirting with me. You'll turn my head.

[kbned]

i'll admit defeat on the subject of bao dur teaches lightsaber building if you admit i might be right about the exile forgetting some important force powers.

[witchzenka]

Ha!

I'll concede it could perhaps have been handled in a clearer way - but the game mechanics is the problem, not the storyline (for both issues), imho. You can't really make a leveling up game mechanic fit in to that storyline perfectly.

[Azazel005]

Oh man, I hate missing pointless semi-deep conjecture about the force, but most inteeresting things have already been said.

 

I think Kbned your just as much self convinced and taking more of these things beyond argument than is fair, s/he does need to learn to feel the force in an entirely new way, how man times does the Exile say "it's not the same" or "It's like an echo" or some other such comparison.

 

I think a more accurate allegory about his force use would be to say, once he could read, then he read something so horrible that it made him scratch his own eyes out, now he has to learn to read braille.

[kbned]

how man times does the Exile say "it's not the same"

0

 

or "It's like an echo"

way too many times. everything is described as "like an echo" in this game whether its a planet, a sith, or even maybe a game of pazzak. just a bunch of echos... yea that sounds right..

 

I think a more accurate allegory about his force use would be to say, once he could read, then he read something so horrible that it made him scratch his own eyes out, now he has to learn to read braille.

yesterday someone might have cared what you had to say on this subject, too late now. that subject was dropped for lack of information on both sides of the argument. if you're going to post about it anyway go back and read the last few posts at least. post number 25 should get you up to speed.

[Azazel005]

Read it all, as I said it was a shame I missed it.

 

Without having the full script in front of me I wont argue and say that the Exile never says "it's not the same", but it is certainly alluded to in no abstract way some dialouge trees. Not really going to make a pedantic issue about it.

 

The fact that the script over uses the simile "like an echo" doesn't change the issue that it wasn't just the Exile re-using the same powers she just learnt.

 

Nonetheless I won't bother, with that point nor the current trend of discussion, as you have made it clear after a whole day you and possibly no one else will actually care hence I won't try and have a conversation I might have otherwise enjoyed.

[witchzenka]

The subject wasn't dropped for lack of information - it was dropped out of exhaustion because you refuse to listen to anything anyone else says and honestly consider it.

The eye-poking out analogy is incredibly apt. I was unsurprised to see you dismiss it without considering it.

[kalimeeri]

if it could actually be reattached it would be usuable immediately. you're just talking about the arm physically being connected by a few stitches. that would pass for reattaching in current medical science but then thats the problem, you're working with the limitations of current medical science. things that do not apply here.

 

i've heard your opinion repeated over and over, you're stuck on the basics still. please let someone else with fewer prejudices reply instead. try replying to the bao dur having to teach the exile what a light saber is made out of and how to make one instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Without too much analogy... Exile turned away from the force unconsciously, out of overwhelming necessity. Because he was so sensitive to other people's suffering, he had to, or he would not have survived. The Force augmented this sensitivity a hundred-fold. This is much like shell shock, or Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. He avoids anything to do with the Force, or with people really, for a long time.

 

He would not completely forget how to use it, he just blocked himself from feeling it. He doesn't even know why, because that's connected with the trauma. Time, plus the slow manipulations of Kreia, bring(s) him back a little at a time, as he learns to understand and deal with the past. But I don't think he'll ever learn to completely trust in the Force again, as he did as Jedi. Too much pain attached. That's why when he feels the Force, it doesn't seem the same.

 

The lightsaber, IMO, is a symbol again of that past. It isn't that he's forgotten how to build one; he resists and maybe even resents it. Bao-Dur and Atton kind of goad him into building one again. They don't actually SAY he's afraid of doing so, but that's what he thinks they might believe. So he does it to prove to his buds that he's not, out of pride.

[kbned]

The subject wasn't dropped for lack of information - it was dropped out of exhaustion because you refuse to listen to anything anyone else says and honestly consider it. 

The eye-poking out analogy is incredibly apt.  I was unsurprised to see you dismiss it without considering it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i didnt say you realized there was lack of information on both sides, i dropped it myself because i didnt want to argue something neither side knew much about. comparing it to the human body and the current medical science to me was way out of place, there is no reason to limit the way the force acts to this. i instead went on to try to prove that he shows memory loss by his dialog instead since that can be looked up and verified. like i said before, i treat this whole "wound in the force" and anything kriea says the same as the midiclorean issue. its there, you cant argue its not but it contradicts lots of existing statements/events. just something they cant take back and causes problems in logic and continuity.

[The Great Phantom]

Kreia and the Jedi Masters all say that the Exile can feel the Force through others... It's like living through your kids, and can be unhealthy ...

[AlanC9]

like i said before, i treat this whole "wound in the force" and anything kriea says the same as the midiclorean issue. its there, you cant argue its not but it contradicts lots of existing statements/events. just something they cant take back and causes problems in logic and continuity.

 

Since the Jedi Council says the same thing Kreia does about the Exile's force connection, there's no chance she's lying. Haven't you played LS?

 

And you still haven't pointed out any real contradictions.

[Deraldin]

how man times does the Exile say "it's not the same"

0

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually I'm pretty sure the exile has the option of saying something similar. In the conversation where Kreia and the Exile talk about the Force on Peragus; the one right before you get your first level up. You can say: "But it doesn't feel like it did.... It feels like it is coming from across a great distance."

 

That's just one example. There are a few others that I don't have the time to search for right now, buried in conversations with Kreia.

[kbned]

there are other characters who say different, there are contradictions. either way, i dont care what is said about it, it shouldnt have even been used. death of the force because some guy cut a few force bonds... btw, i said it contradicts statements/events but that is not limited only to kotor 2.

[kbned]

how man times does the Exile say "it's not the same"

0

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually I'm pretty sure the exile has the option of saying something similar. In the conversation where Kreia and the Exile talk about the Force on Peragus; the one right before you get your first level up. You can say: "But it doesn't feel like it did.... It feels like it is coming from across a great distance."

 

That's just one example. There are a few others that I don't have the time to search for right now, buried in conversations with Kreia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that could just mean that he is weak in the force right now, that he's getting used it after not using it for a long time. its a lot more likely since he cant draw on other's force powers at great distance. even in the game he has to be pretty close, same area. if anything that shows that the only difference in him feeling the force is a greater distance that probably disappears as he levels up.

[AlanC9]

there are other characters who say different, there are contradictions. either way, i dont care what is said about it, it shouldnt have even been used. death of the force because some guy cut a few force bonds... btw, i said it contradicts statements/events but that is not limited only to kotor 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Tell you what ... when you actually get around to making some kind of argument or presenting some evidence, I'll take you seriously. Quotes from the game are helpful. Or wherever else you think there are contradictions.

 

Until then, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what you're talking about, since you don't seem to be able to post a coherent sentence.

[kbned]

if these sentences are incoherent, the problem's on your end. i really dont care enough to explain this to you, you should be able to see just from the sw movies alone how this kind of thing would not be possible. midicloreans and this existing at the same time causes enough of a problem alone. btw, visas says they're all full of bs. she's a little more into the force than anyone else using it as her only sight so i kinda trust that more. and she's the only one without ulterior motives, unbiased opinion from a the last of a highly force sensitve race.

[AlanC9]

btw, visas says they're all full of bs. she's a little more into the force than anyone else using it as her only sight so i kinda trust that more. and she's the only one without ulterior motives, unbiased opinion from a the last of a highly force sensitve race.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She says no such thing. If you've got a quote, produce it.

 

Edit: what's wrong with your shift key?

[witchzenka]

kbned - What lack of information on my side? LMAO! There's a clear lack of information on your side, but not on mine. I know brain injury, I know PTSD, I know trauma and what survivors must do to continue on in daily life.

You on the other hand, have no clue what you are talking about. That's not two-sided lack of info, that's distinctly one sided.

The fact is, they described the Exile's loss perfectly, even movingly. And you may also have noticed that Kreia teaches only a few obscure Powers - the rest the Exile picks up on his own, or even re-learns as he re-makes his difficult connection to the Force (as a cypher, leaching it through others). Though that process is a game mechanic, it does not contradict the story.

[kbned]

i meant lack of information about the actual subject, not lack of information about medical science. neither can really know how similar the two are and there is no reason to believe the two are even similar. btw, are you admitting that kriea taught him those force powers?

[witchzenka]

Oh, I completely admit she taught the Exile Passive Precog, Beast Trick, and Breath Control. Obviously she teaches the Exile those obscure powers.

[kbned]

she taught more than that all in the same way and the exile responded the same way. if you admit those powers he learned from her you should be able to admit the others too.