The Kreia/Kae Question

[phiont]

[Edit: I hope nobody minds that I've editted the title of this thread to reflect that it overwhelmingly deals with only the first of the 2 Questions I was originally asking.]

 

 

 

Kreia was Handmaidens mother, right?

 

I just assumed that when Kavar said to her, "I thought you died on Malachor V" that he was referring to Master Kae, Handmaiden's mom. Besides Kreia acknowledged being one of Revan's Masters and elsewhere Master Kae was mentioned as being one of Revan's Masters. Even Sion refers to Kreia's hopes to train one as great as her former apprentice (Revan). And when Kreia speaks of have the galaxy by the throat at one time, I suppose she meant through Revan. And then there's all the complicated emotions that Kreia always reveals whenever Handmaiden is mentioned including her exclamation of "betrayal" when Handmaiden accepts Jedi training. Oh yeah, and they both have white hair.

 

 

 

This was the second question: The droid factory should have been under the abandoned military base on Telos, right?

 

After listening to the unused HK-47 sound clip that camicortes posted a while back, it's quite clear that the factory was supposed to be on Telos. It just seemed odd that the HK-50 units that arrived just after you depart the underground base seem to be making a routine visit, like they're there quite regularly. They react like their home has been ransacked. Perhaps that unusable door leading to the sublevel originally lead to the droid factory.

 

 

Thoughts?

[Aegis]

#1.

What? You can actually get a story about the Handmaiden's mother from Kreia, I find it hard to believe that she is the Handmaiden's mother. It's an... er... interesting theory you got there, though.

 

#2.

Seems like it.

[Oerwinde]

I doubt Kreia was Handmaiden's mother. Just because Kavar thought she died on Malachor doesn't mean anything because hundreds if not thousands of Jedi died on Malachor. Also, it was also said that Revan had many masters.

 

Though Atton does say he thinks she may have been beautiful once.

[phiont]

That was only a small part of the evidence I was collecting about Kreia possibly having been Master Kae. Here's a bit more:

 

1. About Revan's masters it was said, "Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars." I don't believe that Kae, the only female master listed, was mentioned by coincidence.

 

2. Kae was exiled for having a child. Kreia was also exiled by the Jedi council, but we never learned why.

 

3. There's an interesting bit of unused dialog from when your party first meets the mercs above the military base on Telos:

 

Hrmph... Arren Kae.[sounds disgusted.]Hrmph... Eras Jast.Hrmph... the "Jedi."Executive Lorso did say you were dangerous... maybe she *does* know what she's talking about.We'll see. You may have caught a few of my boys off-guard... but let's see how you fight now, "Jedi."Attack!

 

4. The Disciple said, "As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled."

 

5. Revan was also supposed to have studied much about force bonds. Perhaps he learned that from Master Kae and that could explain how Kreia knew the technique.

[phiont]

Bingo!! I found it.

 

With enough influence over Kreia she will confess the following:

 

"Ah... and what did you wish to know of Revan?[influence: Success] She came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew herself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into her own and learning she was more than she had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan."

[phiont]

#1.

What? You can actually get a story about the Handmaiden's mother from Kreia,

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. According to Kreia:

 

"You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named {ERIN}Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force."

[Helton]

That's a new one. You fail to prove it, though. Yes, both Kreia and Kae trained Revan... so?

 

But I like it anyways. I'll keep my eyes open for more evidence on further playthroughs.

[The Great Phantom]

Arren Kae died, like most Jedi in the Wars... I'll find it if you want...

 

That is why Handmaiden accepts training.

[phiont]

The only way Kreia was not Master Kae is if Revan had 2 female masters who were each exiled by the council and who each were thought to have died fighting the Mandalorians at Malachor V. I suppose anything's possible. "

[The Great Phantom]

Arren Kae fell in love with an Echani General, Yusannis... They had an affair, and the Handmaiden was born. When the Jedi found out, she was exiled, and left to join Revan. She was beautiful, and died when the Handmaiden was very young. Brianna only remembers her Father, and how he looked after the Wars before he was murdered by Darth Revan.

 

Read my sig...

[Zilod]

I had some suspicions about that too, there are some hints that seem to point to that... even the fact that Kea died on Malachor and her body was never found can be a hint of her 'final fall'

 

but there are some things that made me discard the idea...

 

 

the betrayal path is quite fundamental for Kreia, to follow this path she have to be betrayed before to become a betrayer, if Kreia is Kea this path seem to lose strenght as it seem that no one betrayed her before her exile.

 

 

the Exile was an important officer and he knew Hndmaiden's father so is quite likelly that he knew, at leas by sight, even Kea (who is both the wife of an important officer and a former master of Revan himself) and it seem very strange that he didn't recognize Kreia.

 

Is also true that Kreia tells to the Exile that she had the power to erase her presence even from the memory but it seem that she doesn't use that technique with him.

 

 

as said there are many hints about the possibility that Kreia and Kea are the same person, they have both some things that can explain the other character and the temptation is really strong, but these 2 doubts are really big ones, so for now i'm inclined o think that they are 2 different characters.

[The Great Phantom]

2 different people... That's just SICK if they're not...

 

Could we get a Dev's oppinion here?

[The Great Phantom]

Where does it say Master Kae tought Revan? She was a Knight, and served under Revan, had an affair, etc.

 

Can you picture Kreia with the Echani General? I'm going to have nightmares now... gee, thanks a ton.

[phiont]

At the end, Kreia says that "there must always be a Darth Traya." This makes it sound more like a title than her actual name.

 

And according to Atris, "Kreia? Oh... that is not her name." And Atris seemed to know Kreia personally when they finally met at the polar academy. It certainly helps explain why the story focused earlier on Atris being concerned about not having met the "old woman" that the handmaiden sisters had penned up.

[The Great Phantom]

Kreia was infamous, as all of her students: Revan, Sion?, etc., ended up failures.

 

Traya is the name of Sith Betrayal... perhaps the Academy was founded in the Golden Age, and a series of teachings (Pain, Hunger, Betrayal, other secret yet-to-be-revealed teachings), and Traya was the name given to the Betrayer... or, maybe it was a "Power" referred to on Malachor V...

 

Atris is concerned for the above reasons.

 

I don't think she was Handmaiden's mom, but perhaps she trained Arren Kae... ??? :ph34r:

[Oerwinde]

Heres something that screws your theory. The Exile knew her mother. You can get the conversation where you tell her that her mother was a jedi and a great warrior without talking to Kreia or Handmaiden about it beforehand.

[Zilod]

At the end, Kreia says that "there must always be a Darth Traya."  This makes it sound more like a title than her actual name.

 

nono i was not referring to the name darth traya, as you say is just a title

 

when i speak of the betrayal path i inted the process that 'permit' to become a darth traya.

 

this path start with the character that suffer a betrayal, Atris is betrayed by the exile and at that point start her fall.

 

If Kreia is Kea we don't see her clearly betrayed, the fact she had the handmaiden and kept that a secret, hiding her to the jedi seem to point that she alredy started her fall and probably she felt for love not for betrayal.

 

 

for my other doubt is also true that the exile tells that he doesn't remember Kea, but this imply that if he see her he will not be able to recognize her as someone familliar even if not exactly who? or maybe he just doesn't remember her in the mandalorian wars?

[phiont]

Ok so here's a possible version of what happened:

 

Revan's former master, Arren Kae, was exiled for secretly having a child with the Echani General. The secret was revealed 10 years later and she was exiled by the Jedi council. Following that she joined Revan at Malachor and, while everyone thought she had perished, she was actually secretly discovering and re-establishing the Trayus Academy. This is when she resumed being Revan's master, beginning the second apprenticeship that Kreia mentions having with Revan. Revan then finds the Star Forge, attacks the Republic and gets captured.

 

Following the events of KotOR I, Revan recovers his memory of Kae/Kreia and the Trayus Academy, but insists he must go to Malachor V to face it alone. What happened there is not clear. Perhaps Revan found the Exile out there already under the influence of Traya. Perhaps Revan, who had studied force bonds tried to free the exile from Traya with a memory wipe and then have Admiral Onasi send the Harbinger to pick him up. [Although the Harbinger's logs indicate that the Exile was not picked up alone.]

 

That's when Darth Traya (Kae/Kreia) was cast out by Sion and Nihilus. Maybe they were jealous about the attention she was paying to the exile or maybe she got reattached to Revan against their interests. Whatever happened, she managed to escape Malachor V on the Ebon Hawk that Revan had arrived on, but with Sion pursuing her and the Exile, already on the Harbinger.

 

The rest is history...

 

 

I'm trying to be a bit scientific about this - that is to say that a theory can be valid until proven wrong.

 

:D

[KingofThieves]

... Kreia was Handmaiden's mother, right? ...

 

Yeah, Kreia was Handmaiden's mother. I've also heard that Exile was Revan's sibling and Disciple was Dustil O'Nasi. It's all stuff that may have been considered, but was eventually tossed aside... I believe... "

 

I don't think this would've made for such a great story twist the way the game turned out anyway. Once Kreia was chosen as "Miss Badness KotOR II" it would have added that woman scorned element (ala Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon), but totally confused everybody about her being Darth Traya. And people are confused enough. :D

[Zilod]

I'm trying to be a bit scientific about this - that is to say that a theory can be valid until proven wrong. 

 

still my doubts are valid, i say that because i tried to figure out the same things and what i tought was not so dissimilar to your story, but then i was not able to overcome that 2 important points and had to discard it.

[phiont]

Yeah, Kreia was Handmaiden's mother. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah right. Next you'll be trying to tell us that Darth Vader was Luke's father. Let's face it, the last place you'd find interesting plot twists like that is in a Star Wars storyline.

 

[phiont]

...the betrayal path is quite fundamental for Kreia, to follow this path she have to be betrayed before to become a betrayer, if Kreia is Kea this path seem to lose strenght as it seem that no one betrayed her before her exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps someone she trusted revealed to the Order that she'd had a child 10 years earlier. Just because we don't know of Kae's pre-exile betrayal doesn't mean there wasn't one. Furthermore, we only know of her as Darth Traya after she's already been betrayed by Sion and Nihilus. Perhaps she even considers Revan's redemption to have been a betrayal.

 

the Exile was an important officer and he knew Hndmaiden's father so is quite likelly that he knew, at leas by sight, even Kea (who is both the wife of an important officer and a former master of Revan himself) and it seem very strange that he didn't recognize Kreia.

 

Is also true that Kreia tells to the Exile that she had the power to erase her presence even from the memory but it seem that she doesn't use that technique with him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Even if Exile's memory wasn't wiped (although he didn't even recognise Bao-Dur) then keep in mind that Kae's relationship to Yussanis was secret. I don't even recall hearing that they were married. "Jedi don't have families" as Mira said. And given that the 10 year-old Handmaiden had no recollection of her mother it seems reasonable that the Exile never knew of her.

[chibajoe]

This is actually an interesting theory. I'm inclined to believe that Kreia could be Handmaden's mother, but that plot branch was never expanded. There seems to be enough hints that point to the devs at least considering that plot twist as an option, though...

[Zilod]

Perhaps someone she trusted revealed to the Order that she'd had a child 10 years earlier.  Just because we don't know of Kae's pre-exile betrayal doesn't mean there wasn't one.  Furthermore, we only know of her as Darth Traya after she's already been betrayed by Sion and Nihilus.  Perhaps she even considers Revan's redemption to have been a betrayal.

Is it true that we don't know what happened, but to have a child and to keep it secret is not alredy a sign of her fall?

This way an eventual betrayer can't be after the child (as someone that reveal her secret), consider also that this should not be a 'simple' betrayal, Kreia says something like that only who had his heart betrayed can start this path, so the betrayer should have been someone she loved.

 

still we doesn't know too much of her past, it could be a young lover (for example i tried to figure out for fun a story of Kreia and i placed the betrayer during Exar-Kun war even if generally Revan is considered the betrayer), but even in this case this story seem to be so pivotal to her fall

 

Even if Exile's memory wasn't wiped (although he didn't even recognise Bao-Dur) then keep in mind that Kae's relationship to Yussanis was secret.  I don't even recall hearing that they were married.  "Jedi don't have families" as Mira said.  And given that the 10 year-old Handmaiden had no recollection of her mother it seems reasonable that the Exile never knew of her.

He didn't recognize him but if i remember right is also not a total stranger to him.

Also i think too that they where not married and their relationship was secret, but still Yusanis followed her to the war so we can suppose that they fought togather.

I think it can be that he didn't know her directly or he didn't know who she was, but also probable that he saw her around and they even fought toghater.

So i don't say he should recognize Kreia, but that maybe she should not seem completely stranger to him. (all of this also implying that he didn't know her before)

 

little note for the handmaiden, i think she have no recollection of her mother because actually she almost never saw her.

If she had to be keept in secret is probably that was the father to grow her up, while the mother stayed mostly at the jedi enclave.

[chibajoe]

You know, just because Kreia tells the Exile that she's never used the mind trick on him/her, doesn't mean that you have to believe the old witch <_< ...