Continuity kills KOTOR

[Blaise Russel]

umm...so in other words your in favour of killing both Revan and the Exile off then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. Or, alternatively, no.

 

 

 

In truth, I was pointing out that there is a third way between ending a trilogy with a title to go and obliterating several people's experiences of KOTOR 1 and 2 by creating an 'official' game Revan and Exile. Specifically: it's quite easy to get around problems of gender and alignment, because those things can be hidden and they don't completely define a person. Cloaking them in a mixture of heavy clothing and ambiguous plot details is one way; another is for them to die.

 

Or... an idea with which I'm currently toying is that they die like Obi-Wan does. Only through, like, dissolving into the Force can they aid the young protagonist of KOTOR 3 and thus defeat the super Sith Empire. That 'un was sparked by musings on these boards, I recall.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

regaurdless of whether it was a joke or not it was still a great idea, and it does solve the problem of what happened to revan and the exile. The fact that it does draw such a direct parallel to the movies (well the good ones at least) is one of the main reasons why I like this idea so much. As others have said the idea of having a questionaire at the begining of the game would just suck, it would only serve to furthur detatch the player from the dream world that is the Starwars universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's quite good fun to write up between playing Shadowhearts. You can do all sorts of movie "tributes" with it too. I'm currently toying with the twins idea, that you have a sibling who was captured by the Sith (one reason they were no longer looking for you is they didnt realise there were two children).

 

The problem with a questionaire is twofold. As is having Revan/Exile appear in a trinity type system (my first thought).

 

One you have the whole artificiality of it (cant say i'm a big fan of creating the game by menu as it will inevitably lead to a generic character). I dont think you can write a good story for a 8 variables, and I dont think you should include them unless doing so leads to a good story.

 

Second and more important you are relying on the fact that people have played KOTOR I and II and thereby you totally alienate new players from the characters because you cant retell KOTORI&II just to get them "into character".

 

If they are only going to have bit parts, then going through the effort of sticking in Atton type dialogue (which went right over a lot of peoples heads anyway) seems like a waste of effort.

[FortranDragon]

You are right, the harm is probably done now. 

But if they'd put me in charge of KOTOR Volume 2, Part 1, I would break with direct continuity 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Most Holy ;-) would have a problem with marketing and most of the fans if Most Holy broke direct continuity. This is, after all, Knights of the Old Republic, not Tales of the Knights of the Old Republic.

[Stargate: 2000]

umm...so in other words your in favour of killing both Revan and the Exile off then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. Or, alternatively, no.

 

 

 

In truth, I was pointing out that there is a third way between ending a trilogy with a title to go and obliterating several people's experiences of KOTOR 1 and 2 by creating an 'official' game Revan and Exile. Specifically: it's quite easy to get around problems of gender and alignment, because those things can be hidden and they don't completely define a person. Cloaking them in a mixture of heavy clothing and ambiguous plot details is one way; another is for them to die.

 

Or... an idea with which I'm currently toying is that they die like Obi-Wan does. Only through, like, dissolving into the Force can they aid the young protagonist of KOTOR 3 and thus defeat the super Sith Empire. That 'un was sparked by musings on these boards, I recall.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Having them as force ghosts wouldn't work they way your thinking, mainly because after vader died he lost his whole robotic self and was a normal man/ghost (i.e. looked like obi-won) so they couldn't have them with the hoods and all unless they were DS and even then how are you going to comuncate with them since neither of them have set voices? I would be simplar for both the gamer and developer to have them long dead and just have a flashback showing them either die or kill all the sith or to have them die fighting the sith and (as ShadowPaladin sugested) have the story unfold around their kid(s) instead of them.

 

It's quite good fun to write up between playing Shadowhearts. You can do all sorts of movie "tributes" with it too. I'm currently toying with the twins idea, that you have a sibling who was captured by the Sith (one reason they were no longer looking for you is they didnt realise there were two children).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not a bad idea though it might be a litle like the whole "I'm your father" thing you were trying to avoid in the first place. On the other hand having the two kids (saying you could choose who you wanted to play as) it would allow for the player to have the ability to be a member of the sith and either embrace the DS or to turn away from it after their training was complete (maybe something to do with meeting their sibling brings them to the other side of the force either DS or LS depending on the character you choose at the begining... scratch that its really just sucks, no wonder I am not a writer ).

 

The problem with a questionaire is twofold. As is having Revan/Exile appear in a trinity type system (my first thought).

 

One you have the whole artificiality of it (cant say i'm a big fan of creating the game by menu as it will inevitably lead to a generic character). I dont think you can write a good story for a 8 variables, and I dont think you should include them unless doing so leads to a good story.

 

Second and more important you are relying on the fact that people have played KOTOR I and II and thereby you totally alienate new players from the characters because you cant retell KOTORI&II just to get them "into character".

 

If they are only going to have bit parts, then going through the effort of sticking in Atton type dialogue (which went right over a lot of peoples heads anyway) seems like a waste of effort.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

couldn't agree more, I know I wasn't a big fan of the Atton questions in TSL.

[Stargate: 2000]

You are right, the harm is probably done now. 

But if they'd put me in charge of KOTOR Volume 2, Part 1, I would break with direct continuity 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Most Holy ;-) would have a problem with marketing and most of the fans if Most Holy broke direct continuity. This is, after all, Knights of the Old Republic, not Tales of the Knights of the Old Republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

huh???

[The Great Phantom]

Wow, and amazing... I post my idea AGAIN asking for opinions, get one, and everybody continues the argument about the incompatibility of so many variables. I've done it before, with 4 parallel, yet different, fanfics, and it turned out quite decent... My Female versions didn't have as much heart in them, though...

 

Perhaps later games focused on Kotor could take place because of their actions... I don't know, though...

[Cerebus]

Most Holy ;-) would have a problem with marketing and most of the fans if Most Holy broke direct continuity.  This is, after all, Knights of the Old Republic, not Tales of the Knights of the Old Republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, that reminds Most Holy of a fitting parable.

Fetch a pen, Boobah!

 

 

What Most Holy is trying to say is: Giving people a cameo of Revan is a little like throwing him from a rooftop.

 

As for your point about the title, Most Holy will take the liberty to quote himself, because Most Holy is above shame:

But they could still call it KOTOR 2. For KOTOR - as I am sure you know -means "Knights of the Old Republic". It does not mean "Knitting Ongoing Tales Of Revan".

If they presented a story about some other Knights of the old Republic than those we already met, not even refering to the exploits of the latter, the title KOTOR 2 would still be justified.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Wow, and amazing... I post my idea AGAIN asking for opinions, get one, and everybody continues the argument about the incompatibility of so many variables. I've done it before, with 4 parallel, yet different, fanfics, and it turned out quite decent... My Female versions didn't have as much heart in them, though...

 

Perhaps later games focused on Kotor could take place because of their actions... I don't know, though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would be 8 not four.

 

Now ask yourself this. How long did those fanfics take, compared to if you had just chosen an identity in the first place. Also you cheated in a way, because although you wrote four different stories you knew which version you were writing for prior to the writing. Imagine trying to write in such a way that you wouldnt know which identity would be chosen until the book was finished.

[Cerebus]

I think you've leveled up as a whiner since you last whined

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So? That makes me a second level whiner while you are still a first-class imbecile. Anyway, you should give progress a shot. In your case, it would be called "evolution". And before you trouble yourself with looking it up: I mean that strange power that might present your line with opposable thumbs one glorious day.

 

As for continuing this little exchange, lets do it via PM. I hope to hear from you soon, since I have so little opportunity to whine about monosyllabic gibberish where I live. Oh, and by the way: It's not called "whining" but "insulting", and I enjoy it quite a bit in your case. )

[The Great Phantom]

Wow, and amazing... I post my idea AGAIN asking for opinions, get one, and everybody continues the argument about the incompatibility of so many variables. I've done it before, with 4 parallel, yet different, fanfics, and it turned out quite decent... My Female versions didn't have as much heart in them, though...

 

Perhaps later games focused on Kotor could take place because of their actions... I don't know, though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would be 8 not four.

 

Now ask yourself this. How long did those fanfics take, compared to if you had just chosen an identity in the first place. Also you cheated in a way, because although you wrote four different stories you knew which version you were writing for prior to the writing. Imagine trying to write in such a way that you wouldnt know which identity would be chosen until the book was finished.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't want some crappily short game... Each fanfic was only about 30-40 size 12 pages, on a full sheet... I got bored towards the end, so I started to play a different game " ...

 

If they do something along my idea for Kotor III, it would become amazingly easy... just change a pronoun here, a character there (some died, when as LS they didn't, but all the Masters are dead no matter what), and, for the romance angle, add in a simple variable for Bastila/Carth. The romances in Kotor II were too much, so they could just put in all of them talking about them, but if they want, they can add a variable for each person, changing a statement from, "They were powerful... I respected them." to, "They were amazing... I even loved them..." or something like that.

 

It's really not that tricky. You just have to give yourself about 10-20 years of a gap, which is enough to get closure, but enough to let some things resolve themselves (Jedi rebuilding, Sith regathering, True Sith starting an attack).

 

I can see how they do it, with relative ease. All they'd have to do is fill in a couple of story gaps, choose party members, cameos, and the like...

 

Really, I could fit it in, so people that make money for it should be able to even better.

[FortranDragon]

huh???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which part? The 'Most Holy' bit or the rest?

 

'Most Holy' is a reference to when Cerebus (the comic book character ;-)) was the Pope.

[FortranDragon]

Most Holy ;-) would have a problem with marketing and most of the fans if Most Holy broke direct continuity.  This is, after all, Knights of the Old Republic, not Tales of the Knights of the Old Republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, that reminds Most Holy of a fitting parable.

Fetch a pen, Boobah!

 

 

What Most Holy is trying to say is: Giving people a cameo of Revan is a little like throwing him from a rooftop.

 

As for your point about the title, Most Holy will take the liberty to quote himself, because Most Holy is above shame:

But they could still call it KOTOR 2. For KOTOR - as I am sure you know -means "Knights of the Old Republic". It does not mean "Knitting Ongoing Tales Of Revan".

If they presented a story about some other Knights of the old Republic than those we already met, not even refering to the exploits of the latter, the title KOTOR 2 would still be justified.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It depends on how it is done. If it is a case of where Revan and Exile tried and failed to stop The Big Mysterious Threat then you could get away with cameos. Though I imagine most would be excited to have them join your party. (You really can't start out with either for game mechanics reasons since a big part of the Kotor/D20 games is leveling up your character. That means starting with a fresh face at level 1.)

 

Also, as a franchise Kotor is about a series of three interlinked tales. Just like the two sets of movies. (As an example, breaking direct continuity helped kill the Ultima series.) People _like_ to have more of the same, interesting variations on a theme.

[Cerebus]

I don't understand this agonising over the presence of multiple variations of Revan and the Exile. I mean... it's not as if men and women, light-siders and dark-siders always choose different options; one chooses red, then the other chooses blue. Ultimately the gender and alignment of Revan and the Exile are parts of their character, not their characters being parts of Masculinity or the Dark Side.

I'm confused... doesn't it have an effect on the storyline when a bad Revan burns the galaxy with his massive fleet and a good Revan builds a lot of petting zoos? I mean, after only five years and with many of the old crew still hanging around, it would be strange to find no trace of the rather extreme endings of Kotor 1 - unless one made them completely irrelevant. And I don't know how that is to be considered satisfying.

 

So people would rather have inconsequential endless continuity than one good and final ending? Because they "want to know what happens to their characters"?

That's weird. A story is finished when it is finished. Take Highlander (as an example how a decent story can be ruined by a sequel). Take Apocalypse Now. Nobody cares what Willard does after he returns from Kurtz's compound. "See Lawrence of Arabia: The Indian adventures this Saturday on Fox". Sometimes, the more you get, the less you have. There are types of stories that are designed for a long run of add-ons, and some of them are great. But (and I repeat myself here) open-ended ones can not belong to that category without breaking down in the long run (much, much sooner in most cases).

 

I don't want to know what Luke Skywalker does after RotJ. Because they couldn't find a better place to finish his story (yeah, yeah, I know, he's surrounded by Ewoks, but you get the idea). To proof my point: Somebody on this Forum mentioned that Han Solo becomes a Force Sensitive after the films. How lame is that?

 

Even if the creators do a good job (!) of dealing with the impossible task of providing successive continuity to a free-choice-ending, as Obsidian did(!) imagine what would happen if that tradition would continue. With every new sequel you would be told: Oh, by the way: Your actions made no difference whatsoever. Wow. That's satisfying closure.

 

Has TSL more than one ending, by the way? Played only LS myself. I could imagine that Obsidian would evade one of the traps that Kotor 1's multiple endings had posed by simply fixing the outcome in Kotor II while making it as indefinite as possible at the same time. However, I think I need not point out how dissatisfying such an approach is!

 

Case closed, for now.

[The Great Phantom]

Two endings, pretty much the same... the cut content would have made a Kotor III much easier, imho.

[Cerebus]

Also, as a franchise Kotor is about a series of three interlinked tales.  Just like the two sets of movies.  (As an example, breaking direct continuity helped kill the Ultima series.)  People _like_ to have more of the same, interesting variations on a theme.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I loved Ultima! (Until I finished VIII, that is ) .

But Ultima was not a multi-path game. It was as single-path as can be imagined. You are the Avatar, the incarnation of Virtue in a Fantasy world and you return again and again and again to finish a given plot with a fixed ending. Of course you can write great sequels to that. And, in this case, breaking with continuity would be a mistake, since the whole Avatar-theme is what made the series.

Kotor, however, is something completely different.

 

And concerning "variations of the same theme": Star Wars itself is as "variation of the same theme" as it can get. "Aproaching Star Forge!" "Ready, Gold Leader" "Oh man, look at the size of that thing"

[Aegis]

I don't want to know what Luke Skywalker does after RotJ. Because they couldn't find a better place to finish his story (yeah, yeah, I know, he's surrounded by Ewoks, but you get the idea).

 

Actually, I was mildly interested in that after I heard of Mara Jade. The thing is, it's okay to continue the story if the new story is also finished. I read two of Zahn's Star Wars books (it was one story split into two books). It dragged Skywalker & Co. into a whole new story, but it didn't discredit the previous stories and it was told to an end. It was actually quite good, but it's the only SW EU books I've read, so I can't really compare it to anything else.

 

Has TSL more than one ending, by the way? Played only LS myself.

 

Well, yeah, there are two ways to get to the credits (though I'd argue that there is any real ending anywhere). They are basically the same, though, and you still won't really have a clue what just happened. If I knew what happened, perhaps they wouldn't seem so similar, but right now they just seem like "you picked DS/LS, fill in the blanks yourself".

[Aegis]

Haven't tried Ultima IX: Ascension? It's not so bad, though it's extremely buggy and have very awkward controls, but the story is fairly okay. The last Ultima game, and an ending in my taste.

 

Edit: "have were" = "have very" (originally "there were").

[Aegis]

DS ending:

 

You kick Kreia's corpse into the core, Malachor isn't destroyed, you don't fly into space with the Ebon Hawk. That's pretty much it. Oh, and Kreia says some different stuff about the crew, but that's a given.

 

[Cerebus]

Haven't tried Ultima IX: Ascension? It's not so bad, though it's extremely buggy and have were awkward controls, but the story is fairly okay. The last Ultima game, and an ending in my taste.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks. I should try it out. After all, playing Ultima was so important to me back then that I nearly had a hard attack when I found out that VII (1) was bugged and couldn't be finished without a patch. Yes, that was before the internet. IV was still the best, though. Completely unique. But perhaps we should start an off-topic thread for this one. Have to go now. See you around, guys

[Drakron]

Problem with Revan and The Exile is how powerful they became, having then joining would simply shift the story to then instead of who we are playing.

 

Killing then would create another problems, same as making then NPCs (expecialy since The Exile is no Revan, he does not have a name or dresses in a way nobody can see his face).

 

Looking at TSL I am suprised at how it make so many mistakes, not only the game lacks a ending, make the whole start and end around someone called Revan and makes it impossible to use the character we played in a sequel (too powerful for the players to start with).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Problem with Revan and The Exile is how powerful they became, having then joining would simply shift the story to then instead of who we are playing.

 

Killing then would create another problems, same as making then NPCs (expecialy since The Exile is no Revan, he does not have a name or dresses in a way nobody can see his face).

 

Looking at TSL I am suprised at how it make so many mistakes, not only the game lacks a ending, make the whole start and end around someone called Revan and makes it impossible to use the character we played in a sequel (too powerful for the players to start with).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, well I'm sure we would all love to hear your solution.

[The Great Phantom]

My idea would work!

[Drakron]

My solution?

 

I would never design KotOR II as it was, I could salvage the ending by change the "true Sith" nonsense and simply state that Revan simply hid as the rest of the Jedi and send T3 with the Hawk to stop the "new Sith" since the Exile.

 

It would work fairly well since those new Sith would eat on Revan Sith as well as in the Jedi so even a DS Revan would want then to be away.

 

At least I would have a ending that is not around Revan, in the end I felt that the control I had over my character was strip away.

 

If I was given KotOR III to develop I would have no choice but to completly disreguard TSL since it would be my game, OE was a bit too keen in setting up KotOR III stoyline and plot to offer me the freedom in develop.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

My idea would work!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes if you wanted a generic game it would. If all you are doing is changing minor details the game will invariably end up generic.Even those minor elements in KOTORII, the various holo's that were dependent on Attons questions, each on of those was effort that could have gone elsewhere if the character had a solid identity. Also what makes my approach and yours different is that in mine the protagonist is strongly tied to the first two characters, cant get a much stronger bond than as their kid can you? This means that even if the player is new and dosnt know anything about the previous games, they will still get it through the character.The link will allow you to play visions without anyone being able to go WTF (once they cotton on to who they are of course). The closure of player and character go hand in hand. I reckon as long as you let someone choose the identity of one , it will work for most people. I could be wrong of course but it's not like we will find out

 

Writing 4 characters for a fanfic would be the same as the KOTOR blue/male KOTOR blue/female and KOTOR red/male and KOTOR red/female.

 

That is four seperate games each game writen based on how the character turned out (except now instead of 4 versions it's 16 with the addition of a new variable).

[FortranDragon]

And I loved Ultima! (Until I finished VIII, that is ) .

But Ultima was not a multi-path game. It was as single-path as can be imagined. You are the Avatar, the incarnation of Virtue in a Fantasy world and you return again and again and again to finish a given plot with a fixed ending. Of course you can write great sequels to that. And, in this case, breaking with continuity would be a mistake, since the whole Avatar-theme is what made the series.

Kotor, however, is something completely different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought Obsidian handled the consequences of both Kotor 1 endings nicely.

 

In the LS ending Revan remembers something and leaves everyone behind to go deal with it. Because of the Jedi Civil War the Republic is exhausted, fragile, and struggling to rebuild. There are some Sith left, but given their nature they are fractious and divided amongst themselves. No Dark Lord has arisen.

 

In the DS ending Revan remembers something and leaves everyone behind to go deal with it. Being a smarter Dark Lord he makes sure only he knows how to use the Star Forge properly (waiting for his presumed return). Without a Dark Lord force-choking the Sith into line they are fractious and divided amongst themselves. Given an unexpected reprieve the Republic, exhausted and fragile, struggles to rebuild.

 

While the details are somewhat different the end result can be the same. Real world history is like that at times: succeeding events can make earlier events irrelevant. That said, I don't mind them playing this card _once_ in a game series. Using it repeatedly would be a Bad Thing .